Beyond belief....

1life,

a good post. Perhaps those who march or lecture would care to consider that tolerance is generally given by way of return.

Racism is just that, regardless of the colour or race that it's aimed at.

Alec.
 
It infuriates me that we give new comers to the UK religious freedom but ex-pats living in strict Moslem cultures have to tow their line. I am 100% in favour of religious and political tolerance.

However, as an ex-pat living in France, I can tell you we have the same here. My husband and I are very much involved in our local community and shop in the local shops and markets.

Many Brits who move to France never shop outside a supermarket and their social life is centered on other ex-pats. (Immigrants to the UK are always criticised for their ghetto's) When we are off to a local event and invite British friends, they usually respond it is not 'their thing'. Brits abroad have done this for centuries.

We love our life here. Lots of things like French bureaucracy drive us nuts but on the rare occassions I venture home to the UK I hate the noise, the traffic and the filthy streets.

We all need to decide what matters most in life.
 
While we are looking at the history of this, let's not forget how the British Empire operated. Any one know that India was governed by a private company, organised by the British Government? When the Victorians went to colonise places, they showed scant regard for the social and religeous norms of those places. Perhaps this is a case of you reap what you sow?
 
Yorks G India was at the forefront of my thinking. Father and Grandfather lived in India, father whom I loved modern, liberal, and tolerant of all views. He was an exception
 
UNBELIEVABLE! I really feel for that poor girl. Places like Luton have such a bad reputation that it is hard to believe there are still nice 'normal' british people living there...

I do think this country is going to pot and I couldn't agree with you more OP, when you say that we are losing our identity.

Other European countries wouldn't stand for it.. In France even, locals will turn on their heels if you make no attempt to speak to them in French but if you at least try, they will do their best to help you...
 
We are a nation of tolerance. People look for reasons to hate, are told we are against them, and so take actions that we need to react against them. Self fulfilling prophesy.
I listened to a speaker a few years ago, someone high in the muslim network, who converted to christianity. He lived in fear of his life, as there are death threats against him.
His message was this. The muslims are told to have as many children as possible, so that with (It is estimated last time that I read) 25 years there will be enough muslims in the country to take it over by democratic vote.
Their plan is to take us over, and all christian and western nations.
And we are letting them
Have you looked at Sharia law? Do you want to be treated as less than a person because you do not believe what they do?
And no I am not exagerating, just look into it. Listen on you tube to people who have left the religion. Where if you question, you are labeled a trouble maker and entitled as such to be stoned or beheaded.
All groups like this are doing, believe it or not, is alienating people against them, and bringing some of their plans and attitudes into the open. They should be expelled from the country, to countries that have the rules that they believe in. They can be happy there, rather than drawing on benefits paid for by people that want to be in this country and not destroy it from the inside out.
 
YorksG said:
While we are looking at the history of this, let's not forget how the British Empire operated. Any one know that India was governed by a private company, organised by the British Government? When the Victorians went to colonise places, they showed scant regard for the social and religeous norms of those places. Perhaps this is a case of you reap what you sow?
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Yes and no. In the beginning India was contacted by so called merchant adventurers and later the British East India Company that actually fought wars on the sub-continent but after Clive and the Battle of Plessy, it was directly ruled by the British Crown and Queen Victoria became Empress of India - the Jewel in the Crown. Things went along fine as for the most part we let Indians rule themselves by assisting one Maharahja against another so long has he pledged allegance to us. Apart from regarding the Indians ( and everybody else ) as basically inferior to us white Brits - the Victorians left religious and social norms completely as they were.

It was actually Queen Victoria herself who put her foot in it by saying that all Indians were as British as everybody else in her Empire which created the legal president and the Right of Domicile in Great Britain for any that wished to come - back then, no one thought they would.......
 
Totally agree OP. These extremists obviously think the UK is a joke. I hate to think what would happen if some of us Brits marched through the streets in any of the Muslim countries slagging their country off!! I don't think they'd all sit back and let us carry on, in fact I'm pretty sure they'd do something far far serious to end it.
 
Pinkvboots said:
That first video is a disgrace they should not be allowed to stay in this country, how dare they say we should convert to muslim just because they are here and think so, unfortunately us English are now becoming a minority in this country because there are so many immigrants here, if the government had done something about this sooner that soldier may still be alive.
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Us BRITISH, its not just England that has immigrants - Scotland has plenty too!
 
1stclassalan said:
Ah the irony of that statement! The fact that a FOREIGN influence has been adopted and assimulated within our society is my very point!
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It's not ironic :confused: I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just pointing out that your statement of black men dressing in that way was singling out a particular group, when that fashion has been adopted by multiple ethnic groups, not just the one you refer to.
 
1stclassalan said:
It was actually Queen Victoria herself who put her foot in it by saying that all Indians were as British as everybody else in her Empire which created the legal president and the Right of Domicile in Great Britain for any that wished to come - back then, no one thought they would.......
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Very interesting information and just shows how one thing leads on to another, all be it over a long time period.
 
Alec Swan said:
1life,

a good post. Perhaps those who march or lecture would care to consider that tolerance is generally given by way of return.

Racism is just that, regardless of the colour or race that it's aimed at.

Alec.
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Absolutely. With so many different cultures, opinions, religions, morals etc in a relatively small country, harmony is a difficult balance to achieve. But as we are all so different (as this forum alone shows) tolerance can be difficult...and in some instances isn't deserved :(.
 
What I don't quite understand, and perhaps someone can explain to me, is that whilst action, quite correctly, will be taken against those who promote radical and racist views and they happen to be white, those who do the same thing, but are black, seem to live under some sort of umbrella. Are there grounds for permitting or promoting one but not the other, I wonder?

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
What I don't quite understand, and perhaps someone can explain to me, is that whilst action, quite correctly, will be taken against those who promote radical and racist views and they happen to be white, those who do the same thing, but are black, seem to live under some sort of umbrella. Are there grounds for permitting or promoting one but not the other, I wonder?
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I don't fully understand it, Alec, but think it may have something to do with 'racial sensitivity' which I think is laudable and decent but, like 'political correctness', can be taken too far. I believe we should all be treated equally under the law regardless of the colour of our skin.
 
I can't comment on the first video as it just makes my blood boil too much. That is all. :mad: :mad: :mad:

One question I ask myself is WHY? Ughhhh!!
 
fburton said:
I don't fully understand it, Alec, but think it may have something to do with 'racial sensitivity' which I think is laudable and decent but, like 'political correctness', can be taken too far. I believe we should all be treated equally under the law regardless of the colour of our skin.
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Agree - Political correctness is intended to avoid prejudice but this usually seems to apply to minority groups such as disabilities, cultures etc. Not a bad thing BUT it should be applied to prejudice OF ANY KIND. It should be applied across the board.
 
I cant get my head around the fact that during the riots in London, people attempting to incite riots and planning to participate, bragging and encouraging others to do the same on social networking sites were charged and prosecuted, some were jailed for years.
Why does this not happen to the extremists ? They spout their hate on our streets encouraging others to disregard the laws of the land we all have to live by, preaching hate against the people and police in this country, but they are allowed to march down the streets of the country doing so? The world has indeed gone mad, the fact the government seem very reluctant to do anything about this is what fuels the fears of the public and leads to an upsurge in groups like the EDL and BNP
 
Marydoll said:
I cant get my head around the fact that during the riots in London, people attempting to incite riots and planning to participate, bragging and encouraging others to do the same on social networking sites were charged and prosecuted, some were jailed for years.
Why does this not happen to the extremists ? They spout their hate on our streets encouraging others to disregard the laws of the land we all have to live by, preaching hate against the people and police in this country, but they are allowed to march down the streets of the country doing so? The world has indeed gone mad, the fact the government seem very reluctant to do anything about this is what fuels the fears of the public and leads to an upsurge in groups like the EDL and BNP
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Good point, well made!
 
Noodles_3 said:
I can't comment on the first video as it just makes my blood boil too much.
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That's what everyone involved wants!

The moslims were protesting because of alleged differential police treatment and general racism issues - the white girl was having a go at them for mainly being different to her and challenging them acting in this way in "her" town despite her not living there for some time.

So the whole theme here is - stirring up trouble rather than settling any.

They all have a point.
 
1stclassalan said:
That's what everyone involved wants!

The moslims were protesting because of alleged differential police treatment and general racism issues - the white girl was having a go at them for mainly being different to her and challenging them acting in this way in "her" town despite her not living there for some time.

So the whole theme here is - stirring up trouble rather than settling any.

They all have a point.
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Were you watching the same video ?
 
1stclassalan said:
That's what everyone involved wants!

The moslims were protesting because of alleged differential police treatment and general racism issues - the white girl was having a go at them for mainly being different to her and challenging them acting in this way in "her" town despite her not living there for some time.

So the whole theme here is - stirring up trouble rather than settling any.

They all have a point.
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With comments like the above we can see why we are in the situation we are in now. One rule for people in the video who can shout their racism and hatred and one rule for others who mustn't dare say a word against them. I think you will find it was the woman in the burka who was having a go at the girl in the video for being different to them.
 
1stclassalan said:
That's what everyone involved wants!

The moslims were protesting because of alleged differential police treatment and general racism issues - the white girl was having a go at them for mainly being different to her and challenging them acting in this way in "her" town despite her not living there for some time.

So the whole theme here is - stirring up trouble rather than settling any.

They all have a point.
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"Muslims"

The girl was not having a go, she was speaking quietly and informatively. It was the Burka woman saying she is naked a should dress like them.

I wish we could turn back the clock to the 70's when this problem was not to this degree.

I say this is Great Britain. If you don't like OUR rules our way of life and start chanting rubbish like what was in the video. Go back to the place you originated from.

Labour have a lot to answer for letting so many imigrants in.:mad:
 
Armas said:
Were you watching the same video ?
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shannonandtay said:
With comments like the above we can see why we are in the situation we are in now. One rule for people in the video who can shout their racism and hatred and one rule for others who mustn't dare say a word against them. I think you will find it was the woman in the burka who was having a go at the girl in the video for being different to them.
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1stclassalan said:
.......

They all have a point.
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Much as the behaviour in the video concerned, irritates me and from both sides, 1stclass is right, when he says that everyone has a point! He has, you have and I have.

Whilst not wishing to plaster over the cracks, there seems to be a set of rules and laws to protect us all from racism, but for some reason, those laws are only applied in a skewed and biased fashion, and the average Briton (who ever they may be!), if asked who they thought the laws regarding racism were designed to protect, would answer that they were there for the benefit of all non-white, or white but non-native Britons.

Racism is wrong from which ever direction it arrives, and regardless of any perceived barrier, racism is unacceptable. Fine sentiments, you may argue, and then correctly claim that those laws which protect the non-white native Briton, are designed to protect anyone who's aggrieved. Could the racist card be played by the wannabe protester, who appears to hate everything which we stand for, but who we bar from making their protests?

We need to find and use a word other than "Racist". We need a word which will have a more catholic meaning than its current simple and narrow definition, I think!

Alec.
 
As a young person, living close to the area shown in the video, it does scare me how easily people/adulta are able to turn against an entire /sector/ of a community.
You just watched a video.

Thats not really a unbiased, fully informed background for you to make a judgment.

I don't know.
 
Alec Swan said:
Much as the behaviour in the video concerned, irritates me and from both sides, 1stclass is right, when he says that everyone has a point! He has, you have and I have.
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Of course - Alec the voice of reason as usual!

The march was obviously organised by those with a political bias - obvious from all the placards being professionally produced and cheerleaders egging everyone on. The massed ranks of willing hijab wearers was a master stroke!

The whole idea of them protesting about differential police treatment is very believeable - I myself have often wished certain police into hell - not that I think it's actually necessary as they are going there anyway hahahah. Most policemen like throwing their weight about and abusing their authority - George Dixon is long dead.... more is the pity.

I do not think it was a good idea for that white girl to "have a go" at the marchers in the manner she did unless her intention was to start a riot - I actually thought that she obtained far more reasoned replies from the Moslems - especially when if you bear in mind, all she uttered - were rants about how disgusted she was.

The only thing I don't like about this march - is the probable fact that it was arranged to provoke a violent backlash - by its Moslem organisers ( as they appear to be extremists ) if they could generate some good footage of "peaceful" demonstrators being attacked and told to "go home" - it would be beamed around the world and used to fuel more division and strife. Fortutitously, the people of Luton ( well all except one apparantly ) stayed away in droves and ignored it.

All the people protesting on here should consider what they are prepared to do about their perceived problem with folk different to them - in the last resort - it's rise up in arms - is that really what they want? All the time there is brick wall confrontation the differences will be polarised - let it settle and both sides will moderate - the Crusaders brought back many a liking for Arabic ideas and I'd think the majority of Moslem girls ( in particular ) will assert themselves given another 50 years exposure to MTV.
 
I think an important thing would be that we stop funding faith based schools (state or independent) who teach in a way (boys and girls segregated) or with a message (separation, intolerance, violence) that directly conflicts with the ethos of the inclusive democratic liberal traditions of the country.

At the moment we are funding it, and I think it needs to stop.

The best response to a terrorist or inciter is to say thankyou for your message and we will educate your children to love instead if hate and we will maintain our freedoms because that is the thing you want to destroy and we will love our moderate Muslim citizens because they are the bravest and best of all because they resist the pressure to be radicalised and that will annoy you more than anything because you want to divide us. And we won't let that happen any more.
 
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Alec Swan said:
Much as the behaviour in the video concerned, irritates me and from both sides, 1stclass is right, when he says that everyone has a point! He has, you have and I have.

Whilst not wishing to plaster over the cracks, there seems to be a set of rules and laws to protect us all from racism, but for some reason, those laws are only applied in a skewed and biased fashion, and the average Briton (who ever they may be!), if asked who they thought the laws regarding racism were designed to protect, would answer that they were there for the benefit of all non-white, or white but non-native Britons.

Racism is wrong from which ever direction it arrives, and regardless of any perceived barrier, racism is unacceptable. Fine sentiments, you may argue, and then correctly claim that those laws which protect the non-white native Briton, are designed to protect anyone who's aggrieved. Could the racist card be played by the wannabe protester, who appears to hate everything which we stand for, but who we bar from making their protests?

We need to find and use a word other than "Racist". We need a word which will have a more catholic meaning than its current simple and narrow definition, I think!

Alec.
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While I often agree with Alec, I find myself in the (until now) unique position of agreeing with Allen too (check me out!). And, oh by the way, it's not just about finding a new word, it's about all of us finding an all-round perspective. Yes, murder is murder . . . and, yes, racism is racism . . . and, yes, hate crimes are wrong . . . but . . . in a truly free society tolerance MUST apply across a very broad spectrum or we risk tampering with very real freedoms.

I am 100% with those who say that people who preach hate and promote violence against others for any reason (race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) are wrong . . . and I am also 100% with those who say that people who ACT on those beliefs to hurt, maim, frighten, kill purely on the grounds I have listed above are wrong . . . but I cannot go as far as to say that they should be treated in a similar fashion (i.e., those promoters of hate should themselves be lynched or harmed in any way). You either believe in a just and tolerant society, or you don't. It cannot be applied one way . . . or it isn't tolerant and just.

Racism and intolerance cut both ways . . . and failure to forget that, and failure to take that into account in dealing with those who are racist and/or intolerant negates the initial principle.

Just read that back and hope it makes sense :).

P
 
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