Biomechanic pro's please....opinions of this horse

_GG_ said:
Notice the length of cannon bone in this video but he does seem a little more fluid in his movement. Quite hard to see much else but no fear about the rider, no nasty comments on here. If only everyone rode like that after 2 years of nothing :)
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Sorry I think i'm being dense, what is wrong with his cannon bone? I'm not sure sorry.

Thank you - she will be pleased! she has not ridden for ages!
 
SpanishNeddy said:
Thanks for this.

Saddle wise - this was saddle in Spain. I have bought him a Barry Swain Semiflex which is totally open and allows shoulder to move. He goes much better in this hollistic saddle. So this has been done already :-)

With regards to feet he was VERY long in the toe with no heel so farrier has been correcting his feet. We did have him barefoot but he couldnt take it after 4 months so fronts went on and he is happier for it.

I have just posted video above which is more recent :-)
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And he's going much better in the second video. I like his movement and I wouldn't worry a jot about the carriage at the moment. Having no heel will mean big issues with the ability to make a decent arch. It's one of those things that can be a teeny thing to fix, but cause big problems. I am sure just consistent work and lots of hacking will do him the world of good. Looks just my sort to be honest. :)
 
SpanishNeddy said:
Sorry I think i'm being dense, what is wrong with his cannon bone? I'm not sure sorry.

Thank you - she will be pleased! she has not ridden for ages!
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Just a wee bit long in the cannons behind. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, certainly not affecting movement, but someone posted it earlier and I couldn't see it, then I did :)
 
fattylumpkin said:
If you stop/start/stop/start the first video his left hind leg is quite out of step and trailing :) so he's incredibly heavy on the forehand. I'm not a vet or expert by any means but my feeling is that he's so heavy on the forehand he's completely out of rhythm and it's making him appear lame and giving him difficulty with polework. I'd maybe give up on teaching him contact for now because he's obviously not accepting it, go back to loose unspectacular work emphasising straight lines rather than circles, with the rider in a light seat, and see if his basic rhythm improves after a month or two. Hopefully this will lift him off his front end :) GL!

Edit: he's much better in the second video. What a difference with someone else on him!
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Eeeeeeek it's so hard, I never thought his hinds were an issue. I'm usually good at spotting lameness and I saw lots in Spain even the agent did not spot as being not right.
I have been working on getting him forward and not worrying about contact. He has not done much past 3 months and have just moved yards and they spotted what I was thinking and had pointed out to others before.

Thanks regarding second video - it's my friend and she hadn't ridden for a few years so she will be pleased (or not so pleased for posting a video of her on here!!).
 
SpanishNeddy said:
What do you mean by PDQ? sorry
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Pretty damn quick the sooner you know the better so you can do something about it if theres an issue .
Block out one foot if he goes lame on the other you know it's likely to be bilateral lameness , wait for block to wear off and do the other foot .
I really hope it's not but it is a way to discount the feet in most circumtances .
 
siennamum said:
I think he is very pedestrian in front at the moment and not using his shoulders at all and that is what you are seeing OP. He is fairly extravagant behind, and I suspect continually driving himself onto the forehand and not allowing himself the opportunity to elevate his shoulders and work over his back. I bet it is something which will resolve itself enormously in time and as he gets stronger.
There is a drastic improvement from the first video to the 2nd. He was so crooked and irregular in the first video it looked like a mechanical issue, but was hard to pinpoint.
My (now 7 year old) has a huge & powerful bottom & really suffered in a similar way. When he is now working straight and energetically, he has real suspension, but he had horrible pony strides a couple of years ago.
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Thank you very much, exactly what I think!

Nice to hear he looks much better in second video too.
 
_GG_ said:
And he's going much better in the second video. I like his movement and I wouldn't worry a jot about the carriage at the moment. Having no heel will mean big issues with the ability to make a decent arch. It's one of those things that can be a teeny thing to fix, but cause big problems. I am sure just consistent work and lots of hacking will do him the world of good. Looks just my sort to be honest. :)
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Thank you :-)

He is such a wonderful horse. He is a stallion you know, only a baby and he is so safe and kind. He is a brave type and really tries (as you can see). He is a monkey on the ground though, a right comedian!
 
Goldenstar said:
Pretty damn quick the sooner you know the better so you can do something about it if theres an issue .
Block out one foot if he goes lame on the other you know it's likely to be bilateral lameness , wait for block to wear off and do the other foot .
I really hope it's not but it is a way to discount the feet in most circumtances .
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Ah I see - sorry bit dense at this text speak LOL
 
My sons horse is pb lusitano and he had horrendous long toes and collapsed heels when he started work. We have sorted his feet, and it has stopped him stumbling and dishing and encouraged him to really use his shoulders. This will make a huge difference to your boy I bet.
 
That might be a way forward lots of walking out seeing the world .
From the bit of the video I could get to load he looked very tense in his body like he was holding himself that can contribute to the horse moving much more choppily than it needs to.
Lots of relaxed walking can help that as can physio / bodywork .
 
Only watched first video

To me it looks like he just doesn't lift his back. There is no movement there, swing or bounce and he doesn't round his frame to allow his back legs under neath. They stick out the back basically

I think the outline is very false and has been made with the hand not the leg. He is continually working like he is doing a shoulder in to the right.

The rider isn't helping.... I think her balance is pushing him down in front. The saddle is sat to far forwards and is to tight on the front and pushing in behind the shoulder blades, restricting movement.

Finally OP does he have a long back? In the video he looks very drawn out..... But it may just be the video and camera you have used!
 
My five year old (very green) is very similar. I have videos if you want to compare.

He had a full work up by the vet so I know he is sound and there's nothing wrong with him, because I was worried he was lame in front too.

We've got him a different saddle and that has helped, so might be worth getting his saddle and back checked just in case.

He is just lacking muscle/strength and so falls onto the forehand, and this means he scurries in fronts. We are getting moments when he engages his back end and lengthens in front, you just have to be patient and do a lot of strengthening work. (hill work, poles/cavaletti, lunging etc) and you will get there :) For the time being I would ride him more open in front, and just focus on what the back end's doing!
 
SpanishNeddy said:
Thanks - yeah he has done poles. Just worried as he trips a lot and always in front.....coupled with lack of wanting to go forward makes me wonder.
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has he got shoes on? if he has did he have them before he was shipped over? as it may be worth taking them off for a little bit - it did rio the world of good having them off for a bit you can also see if they are wearing their feet unevenly which may indicate an issue
 
Maybe i am being simplistic but if he was tripping seven months ago and still is now despite six months of good hoofcare, a decent sadlle and time on a classical yard and i assume (maybe wrongly) more schooling i would be investigating more
 
WelshD said:
Maybe i am being simplistic but if he was tripping seven months ago and still is now despite six months of good hoofcare, a decent sadlle and time on a classical yard and i assume (maybe wrongly) more schooling i would be investigating more
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I've just watched the videos more closely. Firstly I think that this boy would be a very interesting ride, I do like him. He looks smart but calm which is a combination I love but it can be very difficult when they are green.

To me, the video below in which he is ridden by the girl that schooled horses at the OPs old yard is very interesting. She doesn't allow him to just poke his nose out and gangle about BUT she rides very quietly and does not pull his head in. He looks altogether lighter up front and more fluid in his movement. He is not consistent in his self carriage at all, but there is consistency in his trying to balance himself and not rely on riders hands for that.

OP...did he trip much with this rider? I'll go out on a limb and say I bet he didn't trip much with her, if at all. With the other riders, I can see why he might have the opportunity to use them to balance on, which I believe he learned before you got him going by the first video you posted.

He really does appeal to me and you may all remember another horse that became quite famous on here that had developed a complete inability to be consistent in a good contact because he had learned to evade by going BTV. OP...you have got this horse when he is still young. I would rather be safe than sorry so I would continue to explore this with the vet, but if my gut is right, he is just a smart horse trying to figure it all out.

My advice, find a rider that can do what the girl in the video below does and let her, or you be the only person/people to ride him until he has, quite literally found his feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7weebEQ1ljA
 
siennamum said:
My sons horse is pb lusitano and he had horrendous long toes and collapsed heels when he started work. We have sorted his feet, and it has stopped him stumbling and dishing and encouraged him to really use his shoulders. This will make a huge difference to your boy I bet.
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Oh really! my farrier said it's very likely to be the main cause of his tripping. I think his tripping has improved since I've had him, although he does still trip even in great surfaces.

How long did it take for you to get his feet sorted? and also for his movement in riding to change?

The thing is my boy has been here since April but has not really done much since being here in all honesty. During the summer I was riding him more (about 3 times a week plus a lunge or two). But past few months he has only been worked at weekends. So he has not been in consistant work to identify whether his green-ness is the cause if you see my point.
 
JingleSmells said:
Only had a quick look at both as really need to get in the kitchen for a bit but, for me, his way of going in the second video is much better. He looks much lighter up front and generally happier, but I have only watched about 30 seconds of each so will look again later :)
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OK interesting, the lady riding in the second video works at the yard and is the one that schools horses on schooling livery. She bought on my other PRE from a nervous wreck to in full competition, she did an amazing job with my other boy. She rode this one just because I wanted to see him being ridden by someone else! I thought he went well too. Interestingly this lady is a very strong rider, as of course she schools many horses per day (its her job obviously) so if you think he looks a lot better in the second video......would that indicate it's a green-ness / schooling issue?
 
Goldenstar said:
That might be a way forward lots of walking out seeing the world .
From the bit of the video I could get to load he looked very tense in his body like he was holding himself that can contribute to the horse moving much more choppily than it needs to.
Lots of relaxed walking can help that as can physio / bodywork .
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Thank you.

It's a shame I do not have a video of me riding him! as I do a lot of walk and trot work with him and he is very relaxed (probably too relaxed!). But at my last yard I was DIY so riding really early or late so nobody around to take video.

He usually starts off REALLY awful, wonky, unbalanced etc....then after a good 20 mins he is so much better and actually goes nicely. My BF thinks it's because he was standing in a stable 24/7 (a small stable that was not big enough for him either) and was not going out and moving around. He is 16.2/16.3HH by the way, so a big boy and he does not know his own size, i would not call him foot/body sure at all ! he bumps into everything.
 
TandD said:
Only watched first video

To me it looks like he just doesn't lift his back. There is no movement there, swing or bounce and he doesn't round his frame to allow his back legs under neath. They stick out the back basically

I think the outline is very false and has been made with the hand not the leg. He is continually working like he is doing a shoulder in to the right.

The rider isn't helping.... I think her balance is pushing him down in front. The saddle is sat to far forwards and is to tight on the front and pushing in behind the shoulder blades, restricting movement.

Finally OP does he have a long back? In the video he looks very drawn out..... But it may just be the video and camera you have used!
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Thank you.

In answer to your questions, yes he does have a slightly longer back than most PRE's. I will post pictures in a mo of him untacked.

The very first video (original one that started this thread) was him in Spain. He was in the owners saddle, and they use the same saddle on all their horses! so he is obviously in a different saddle now. I have him in a hollistic Barry Swain Semiflex saddle, which was fitted by Kay Humphries! so you can not get much better than that. The saddle is free at the flaps so allows the shoulder to move freely.
The rider is not my, was the agent I got him through and was her first time on him. Yes I agree too much in the hand! not how i ride him. But fair enough, first time on him.
 
Pigeon said:
My five year old (very green) is very similar. I have videos if you want to compare.

He had a full work up by the vet so I know he is sound and there's nothing wrong with him, because I was worried he was lame in front too.

We've got him a different saddle and that has helped, so might be worth getting his saddle and back checked just in case.

He is just lacking muscle/strength and so falls onto the forehand, and this means he scurries in fronts. We are getting moments when he engages his back end and lengthens in front, you just have to be patient and do a lot of strengthening work. (hill work, poles/cavaletti, lunging etc) and you will get there :) For the time being I would ride him more open in front, and just focus on what the back end's doing!
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Thanks very much for your post.

I would love to see videos of your boy who is similar please, if you could PM them to me that would be great.

What saddle is he now in?
My boy is now in a Barry Swain Hollistic Semiflex fitted by Kay Humphries. It is free at the flaps so does not restrict their shoulders and of course it's semiflex.

It's very hard, I struggle to understand because I've never owned a horse with such an active hind and weak front before. Always the oppostite. Can it be just green-ness? as he lacks basic movement in his forelimbs in my view. He did pass a vetting in Spain and I got them to look especially at that. However, some of you may know Spanish vettings are not like UK vettings!! I did however select my own spanish vet who was recommended and known by my equine vet friend here in the UK (the spanish vet actually used to work at a uk practice i know).
 
StormyMoments said:
has he got shoes on? if he has did he have them before he was shipped over? as it may be worth taking them off for a little bit - it did rio the world of good having them off for a bit you can also see if they are wearing their feet unevenly which may indicate an issue
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He had fronts on in Spain and when he got here we took them off. They were off for about 3-4 months roughly then we put fronts back on as he was stuggling. He did ok with them off to be honest but the school I was riding in was VERY stoney and obviously it was not helping him! so I would rather he was comfortable. He is better with fronts on IMO. When the shoes were off my farrier did not inform me of any unusual wear (that I can remember anyway).
 
WelshD said:
Maybe i am being simplistic but if he was tripping seven months ago and still is now despite six months of good hoofcare, a decent sadlle and time on a classical yard and i assume (maybe wrongly) more schooling i would be investigating more
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Yes this does seem rather obvious to me and I probably did not make it clear before, but he has NOT been in consistant work since being here. I did more in the summer with him but was restricted coming into the winter at my previous yard, so for the past few 3 months he has had an easy life doing 1-2 times per week at weekends only. Hence me moving yards. He was stabled 24/7 as well, so never got to move around and being 16.2/16.3hh he is a big boy. I wanted him to have grass turnout, which was main reason for my move amongst other things (school surfaces he was struggling with).
 
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