Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you. I will definitely give that one a try if the one I have on order doesn't do the trick. I do like hanging cheek bits.
Bit recommendations for head shaking youngster
- Thread starter Wagtail
- Start date
Thank you. I will definitely give that one a try if the one I have on order doesn't do the trick. I do like hanging cheek bits.
baran
Well-Known Member
She may have been OK with it because when the discomfort got too much, she could bite through it and release the pressure!
This isn't a dig at you but I feel a horse that headshakes is trying to tell you something, just as a horse that bucks is probably trying to tell you something. If your horse kept bucking despite different saddles, you would get a vet out.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I am usually the first person to suggest a vet in cases where there is a pain issue. However, in this case, the pain issue is being brought on by the discomfort of a bit or a tight nose band. She has no head shaking whatsoever in a rope halter or with the bit unless it is attached to side reins. So I know the discomfort is being caused by the bit otherwise she would do it whilst being lunged without the side reins. I have known plenty of head shakers that will do it without a bridle when they are being lunged. Most head shakers that I have dealt with have been allergies and have been stopped by giving them cetirizine. I know that the worst type is that caused by nerve pain and I have been lucky so far in that none of the head shakers I have dealt with have had that problem. It is a terrible condition. My mare does not have that because she is happy in every respect except in side reins with a bit. If it turns out that she has pain that is only ever caused by a bit, then if I can't find one that doesn't cause the problem and if I can't ride her bitless then she will be a pet and not have to work at all. She is however fully insured and if she needs any veterinary attention for anything whatsoever, then she will have it. It seems only logical to me however, that I need to rule out a bit issue first. My old mare used to jerk at the reins and it took me two years to find a bit which she was comfortable in. I rode her bitless until I did. It is hardly surprising that many horses find the bit uncomfortable and will shake their heads. I think we would do the same if we had lumps of metal in our mouths attached to reins. It is up to us to find one they are comfortable with.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thanks. I will give the long lines another go once I am sure she is happy in the bit on the lunge. I really do like to long rein and normally lunge with two reins as well. I am being quite soft with her mainly because even though I have broken in several other horses, they have been for other people and a long time ago. There was time pressure and the horses were with me only temporarily. This is the first horse I have broken in that has been my own. All my other horses have been backed before I owned them. I want to do this one at a really slow and gentle pace with no negative experiences for her. I want work to be fun for her and so have removed pressure if there has been any sign of discomfort or distress. I've had her since she was two and know her really well now. I think that once I get through the bitting issue the long lining will work out fine.
be positive
Well-Known Member
What does she do if you leave the bridle on and work her at liberty? it sounds more like a protest than true headshaking, she is very demonstrative about things she doesn't approve of, I don't think horses hate so would look at it from a different angle, if she objects to something do you always give her the benefit of the doubt and think she "hates" it or have you tried ignoring her and continuing, if they are genuinely in discomfort then fair enough back off and change things but she does not accept long reining or any pressure which if it is not due to pain then is down to her learning that a protest meets with an easy life.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
So get rid of the side reins? I threw mine out years ago, horrible things, and I don't miss them.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
these 2 posts are screaming out to me, having read this and your previous thread about taking things slowly - we try to do our best and protect our horses from negative experiences but at some point things will go wrong, and dealing with that can be a good learning curve too, so you can't be too afraid of upsetting her.
Agree with another poster upthread that often bitting issues are not actually caused by a bitting problem. Don't take this the wrong way but there's an element of her needing to 'man up'. Hopefully you will know that I don't mean you should be rough or over dominant, there's no need, but essentially the whole process of backing a horse causes it to have to *accept* some things that don't come naturally. Being too tentative means they never get over that acceptance hump.
(usual caveat of obviously you make an effort to make sure they are comfortable etc at the same time etc etc )
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EliasSmack
New User
I'm breaking my mare in at present and our progress has been stalled by her continued problem with the bit. I thought I'd found one she liked (a nylon apple flavoured full cheeked one) but she chomped right through it in a few sessions. I changed it to one which looked the same (Shires nylon apple flavoured) but she hates it. It is slightly harder in texture and thicker, but not much. I had to get off her last time I was riding because she was throwing her head around so much that she was nearly knocking over the lady who was leading her (lady is very petite and over 60 so I was worried she would be hurt). Since this incident, I have been trying to get her to accept the bit on the ground and on the lunge. She is great until she feels any pressure on the bit and then she does the same thing, throwing her head from side to side. I have been using very loose side reins to try and accustom her to the feel of the bit. Without the bit she is good as gold and has no issue with me mounting or on her back. So far I have tried the micklem bitted and bitless. She hates that. I have tried a nue schule team up which she also hates. She is fine with the bit until I attach side reins or hold the reins and there is even the slightest pressure on her mouth. She also hates lunge cavessons so I use a rope halter to lunge from. She is perfect with her new bowstrings in the rope halter but it's not good for control when riding. She has had her teeth done only last week and she did have some sharp edges but she's no better since rasping. She has had her wolf teeth removed over a year ago.
As I say, we seemed to have cracked it with the first nylon bit but she chomped through it in no time. Any suggestions very welcome. Thanks.
Happy in this:
Not happy in this:
I would go with a leather bit.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I may have thought of it more as a protest if she had not been fine with the feeling apple bit. It is only since changing to the Shires one. To recap, she was really bad with the team up bit, then accepted the Feeling bit, then will not accept the Shires bit. So I do think it is a genuine discomfort. She does object to things sometimes. When she is objecting it is much more acrobatic. She will rear, buck and twist. If she does this, I push her through it and make her work. I know her well enough now to know when it's a protest and when she's uncomfortable. I do understand where you're coming from though.
ETA: she works fine on the lunge or at liberty with the bridle on. It is just with the side reins or if I take a contact on the reins when riding her.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I actually agree with you regarding side reins. The only reason I have been using them was because she objected to me taking even a gentle contact and I wanted to lunge her in something which gave her some sort of contact on the bit. Normally, I would just long rein, but as she has a problem with the reins touching her I didn't want to tackle two things at once and didn't want her running away whilst she had a potentially uncomfortable mouth IYSWIM.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you. I think she has been somewhat of an experiment for me. I used to be very traditional in my methods and in the past, when I was breaking horses in I have just made them get on with it. This time I wanted to take my time and make the whole experience a nice one. I don't have any time pressures. I do want to be sure the bit isn't causing her discomfort before I start insisting that she works through it. I may be getting soft in my old age
Wagtail
Horse servant
I'll see if I can find one. Thank you.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Remind me how old she ?
fornema
Well-Known Member
This sounds almost identical to mine, not nervous but sensitive, shouting is my last resort and is possibly the most stubborn horse I have ever known in her mindset but with that she picks up everything and positive reinforcement is essential. I am usually one for pushing them through it but for this one that wouldn't work, the single time I went for that approach a she shattered my nose with her neck as I think the mental pressure of me pushing her forward with my legs and the touch of a whip was just too much and with a horse who tends to throw their head as a protest its not something I would do again, at the end of the day they are always stronger. I do recommend persevering with the Micklem for a couple of rides and see what results you get, as you have to remember with this type of horse that they will be expecting the pressure of the bit and don't forget it easily.
She also wouldn't accept side reins even lunging off a head collar as ultimately they will cause pressure points, one thing that has suited her very well is a Kavalkade HO Lunging Aid/Harry's Horse lunging aid or equivalent (I use an old pair of draw reins to the same effect, there is also youtube video of Laura Bechtolsheimer demoing one) as this allows the pressure to not concentrate and move and helped her accept a contact more - we have got to the point where she will work long and low in one which I never thought I would see. Edited to say do not use it at the tightness that the companies advertising advocate but start as loose as you can.
I think it all has to do with their own balance, now she has her own balance and can hold herself in her frame and is beautifully forwards, she will only do it if she drops heavily into my hands and only for a moment which I almost expect as she is just 4. I have done a significant amount of transition work which I would not usually use so much for a young horse but it has worked wonders in keeping her comfortable.
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Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
Have you tried the elastic rein inserts? Again with my head waving youngster, they helped a lot (but if you do, remember to use pony reins otherwise you end up trying to manage washing lines). The other thing that made a HUGE difference to mine was using an Irish martingale. Simple but incredibly effective.
fornema
Well-Known Member
I have had these on a previous horse and my issue is that they will 'dampen' any signals you do send through the reins so you have to be so accurate with them. I used my about 3 times before selling them as absolutly hated them.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
I agree they have their place and need to be used advisedly, but I reckon Wagtail has the experience
The whole point is that they dampen the signal, which in a truly sensitive mouthed horse is what it needs to gain confidence in accepting the contact. Equally the Irish martingale is useful is that it stabilises the reins and prevents unnecessary signals going to a sensitive mouth.
Snow Falcon
Looking for the light
I went through a variety of bits when backing my young mare. Started in a nathe straight bar, no good for steering. Fulmer happy mouth fixed straight bar, fulmer jointed loose ring, fulmer with lozenge, mullen mouth - spent all my time getting someone to put her tongue back where it should have been, teeth re-checked along with saddle and back. Loose ring jointed, too much play, hanging cheek which she settled in for a while then resistance, someone kindly suggested on here a curved eggbutt jointed snaffle - BINGO.
Her nephew was fussy in his mouth and took a while to accept pressure from the bit. My mare is going very nicely at the moment. I hope that you are able to resolve your issues Wagtail. It is frustrating when you are being patient and trying to do your best for them
Her nephew was fussy in his mouth and took a while to accept pressure from the bit. My mare is going very nicely at the moment. I hope that you are able to resolve your issues Wagtail. It is frustrating when you are being patient and trying to do your best for them
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Just a thought .. when you first bitted her, did you leave it in for a bit and let her eat hay and graze in it and take treats etc?
I did this with both my mares, both in single jointed fulmers now (tried lozenge but the chewing was a bit too incessant!). I did it for a few days each and both just took the bit.
I'm not sure about the whole "man up" thing. I think it's our responsibility to teach these animals how this metal/plastic thing actually works. With both of them, I asked for all the aids in hand first. Lots of pressure release at halt, then walk. Lots of turns, circles and changes of direction in-hand. Asking for quarters movement/shoulder movement.
Also, I wouldn't lunge on the bit unless it's two long lines as you can't balance out the outside rein with the inside. You end up with a tight outside contact and a loose inside and it's very confusing as they want to look outside but it's not balanced on the circle, they need to be looking in.
I did this with both my mares, both in single jointed fulmers now (tried lozenge but the chewing was a bit too incessant!). I did it for a few days each and both just took the bit.
I'm not sure about the whole "man up" thing. I think it's our responsibility to teach these animals how this metal/plastic thing actually works. With both of them, I asked for all the aids in hand first. Lots of pressure release at halt, then walk. Lots of turns, circles and changes of direction in-hand. Asking for quarters movement/shoulder movement.
Also, I wouldn't lunge on the bit unless it's two long lines as you can't balance out the outside rein with the inside. You end up with a tight outside contact and a loose inside and it's very confusing as they want to look outside but it's not balanced on the circle, they need to be looking in.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
There's no way I would lunge a horse having this much trouble with the bit with two lines unless it was in doors with no chance of anything external causing a spook that caused an upset because a bad experience could really make this just about insolvable .
I am usually one to use issue like spooking and everything that goes wrong to teach horses that stuff happens you live you get on with your job but in situations like this you have to prevent any chance of line related stuff going wrong
Wagtail have you tried a really loose bungee or sliding side reins .
Where are you attaching the line for lunging
I would defiantly be feeding the horse in a bit .
I am usually one to use issue like spooking and everything that goes wrong to teach horses that stuff happens you live you get on with your job but in situations like this you have to prevent any chance of line related stuff going wrong
Wagtail have you tried a really loose bungee or sliding side reins .
Where are you attaching the line for lunging
I would defiantly be feeding the horse in a bit .
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I don't disagree, but the OPs posts on this horse seem to read that if the horse remotely objects to anything then she backs off because there's no rush. What I was getting at is that an unbroken horse WILL object to being bitted, backed etc. Some object more/less than others. They aren't born with bits in their mouths and humans on their backs so there is always a period of adjustment while they learn what to do with themselves and this is normal. You can't *plan* to back off every time, or else you'll forever have an unbacked, unbitted horse... you find the most comfortable tack but then they still have to learn to accept it.
We do unnatural things to horses. Some accept it faster than others, but they all have a learning phase.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I went through a variety of bits when backing my young mare. Started in a nathe straight bar, no good for steering. Fulmer happy mouth fixed straight bar, fulmer jointed loose ring, fulmer with lozenge, mullen mouth - spent all my time getting someone to put her tongue back where it should have been, teeth re-checked along with saddle and back. Loose ring jointed, too much play, hanging cheek which she settled in for a while then resistance, someone kindly suggested on here a curved eggbutt jointed snaffle - BINGO.
Her nephew was fussy in his mouth and took a while to accept pressure from the bit. My mare is going very nicely at the moment. I hope that you are able to resolve your issues Wagtail. It is frustrating when you are being patient and trying to do your best for them
Thank you. I'm sure I'll get there in the end. It just might be a long time!
I did everything loose in the sand turn out and arena. I like them to be able to move their feet and walk away if they want because I find that causes less fear or resistance. She was immediately good to bridle and still is. I allow her to stand at a hay net and eat with the bit in her mouth. I haven't given her a bucket feed in it but she is happy to eat hay and treats with the bit in her mouth. I have the rope halter on under the bridle and lunge her from that, so never from the bit. The bit causes her no stress or issues whatsoever until around five minutes into being lunged with it. Side reins are very loose but it is this slight contact that seems to be the issue. I agree that side reins are not a good training aid and I would normally go with the two rein lunging like I do with all the others, but I don't want to do that until I am certain the bit is no longer an issue for her because until I sort that I need to lunge from the halter rather than her mouth.
She's very happy eating with the bit in her mouth and has been doing for months. Every time I put the bridle on in fact. I very much agree with you that long lining/two rein lunging would be a disaster waiting to happen until she is happy with pressure on the bit. I don't want any negative experiences for her. She is very spirited and can be naughty. I push her through that, but I won't push her through discomfort.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Re the long lining, where you say she won't accept the feel of the lines on her legs.
I picked up a very useful tip from a book on breaking (can't remember the title, sadly). Once the horse is lunging calmly, introduce a bum rope which attaches to the roller, modelled here by my retired Cushing's mare (apologies for her scruffiness!). I would have a breast girth too, if this was a young horse.
I've always done this with with my breakers, and whilst none of them have worried about it, it is a very useful intermediate step towards long lining, as they have to get used to the feel of the rope on their legs. I carry on with all the usual lunging activities with the bum rope in place. If they do try and p1ss off or have a fling, you have much more control than on long lines.
I picked up a very useful tip from a book on breaking (can't remember the title, sadly). Once the horse is lunging calmly, introduce a bum rope which attaches to the roller, modelled here by my retired Cushing's mare (apologies for her scruffiness!). I would have a breast girth too, if this was a young horse.
I've always done this with with my breakers, and whilst none of them have worried about it, it is a very useful intermediate step towards long lining, as they have to get used to the feel of the rope on their legs. I carry on with all the usual lunging activities with the bum rope in place. If they do try and p1ss off or have a fling, you have much more control than on long lines.
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YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
What is she like with pressure on the bit when led from the reins? Many years ago I read some interesting stuff by a frenchman, whose name I cannot for the life of me remember, who did most of his training with youngsters by the shoulder/girth area, bringing the farside rein under the horses neck and using the reins as if from on top, if that makes sense. It is how we introduce bitted work and have done for years.
Wagtail
Horse servant
There was a change in my girl yesterday which made me sad. Normally she greets me which a whinny as soon as she sees me and will call for me if she doesn't see me. She walks free from her field to the sand school (it's all enclosed so safe). She will park herself up at the hay net and remain untied whilst I groom her, pick out her feet and tack her up. Yesterday she did not greet me with a whinny as I approached her field and was reluctant to come out. Then when she finally walked into the sand she would not go to the hay net and pulled a face and walked away from me when I approached with the head collar. For the first time I had to tie her up (once I'd caught her). She also tried to walk away whilst I tacked her up. This all is totally out of character. Normally she can't wait to work. I tried her in the Myler comfort eggbutt snaffle and this time she was really resistant even before I attached the side reins. I could hardly get a normal shaped circle out of her. Once the side reins were attached she was even worse. So I removed the bridle completely and lunged her just with the roller and rope halter. Perfect circles and lovely natural working over her back. Beautifully forward. My girl still wants to work, she just doesn't like the bit. Metal bits are the worst for her and it is this perseverance with various bits over the past couple of weeks which has robbed me of her enthusiasm for work. I racked my brains and remember her breeder saying that her full brother was the same with the bit. In the end he accepted a rubber mullen mouthed snaffle. So this is going to be the next bit I try. But not for a few days. I'm going to make training fun for her again. No bits or bridles, just liberty training and fun stuff, then get back to it.
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Wagtail
Horse servant
Re the long lining, where you say she won't accept the feel of the lines on her legs.
I picked up a very useful tip from a book on breaking (can't remember the title, sadly). Once the horse is lunging calmly, introduce a bum rope which attaches to the roller, modelled here by my retired Cushing's mare (apologies for her scruffiness!). I would have a breast girth too, if this was a young horse.
I've always done this with with my breakers, and whilst none of them have worried about it, it is a very useful intermediate step towards long lining, as they have to get used to the feel of the rope on their legs. I carry on with all the usual lunging activities with the bum rope in place. If they do try and p1ss off or have a fling, you have much more control than on long lines.
This is a very good idea. Thank you.
Wagtail
Horse servant
The was fine in the feeling bit, but will resist all others. I had been doing some in hand straightness training which was mostly going very well. We had a problem turning right though when I was on her left side, but this is also a problem in a head collar so not to do with the bit. I'm going to buy another feeling apple flavoured bit to have on standby but first I am going to try a rubber snaffle.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
The thing is also, that some horse may not even accept "man up" they resist even more, then you have a problem.
See, I have a tricky horse too and sometimes you just have to give to let them process it. Patience pays off with horses that are less accepting of life with humans. It's a strange life.
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Wagtail
Horse servant
I agree, tallyho. The important thing is knowing the nature of what you are dealing with. My mare accepts so much without objection. She has been amazing in so many ways. She gives so much. She doesn't need to 'man up'. She is the most confident youngster I have ever had the pleasure of working with. She has shown me time and time again that she wants to work. I think it is my role to find a way that she can be comfortable when she does. But she is also a personality that does get worse if you get emotional. By emotional, I mean annoyed, loud or overly forceful. It makes her twice as bad. You can insist but you must do so totally quietly and calmly. No upping the anti.
Millipops, I do not back off as soon as she remotely objects to anything. You haven't seen what I have pushed her through when I know that it is a strop or just a stubborn objection. I just listen when there is discomfort.
Millipops, I do not back off as soon as she remotely objects to anything. You haven't seen what I have pushed her through when I know that it is a strop or just a stubborn objection. I just listen when there is discomfort.
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milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
lol that's quite different to what you first wrote
I have a tricky horse too, and have ridden others... nowhere do I suggest upping the ante and getting emotional. If you do that to mine she puts the shutters down and sticks her fingers in her ears - either that or else she simply ejects you. Actually Wagtail it sound like you are quite emotional about this horse, if it was something you were backing for someone else I expect you'd be riding away by now.
What I mean is that you simply can't train a horse entirely on its own terms. Impossible. By definition the horse's terms are 'remove all this tack, stop trying to get on my back and let me be in the field with my mates'.
That's what being a horse is all about, after all.
Being a ridden horse requires that the horse accepts some stuff it will naturally want to resist. It has to move towards our terms. That's what I mean by man up, not whacking it or forcing anything, but merely getting the horse to a place where it accepts the things it naturally will resist. If we as trainers can't cope with the ethics of that (we are basically insisting that an animal agrees to do something that it naturally would find terrible) then we have no business backing horses IMO.
All training has to be sympathetic to the animal's need and individual responses but endless dancing around the basic acceptance issues will get us all nowhere. Anyway, I'll bow out now, sounds like you'll be keeping the bit bank in business for a while yet
Hope you find a solution. Good luck with her.