Bitless Dressage

khalswitz said:
Wow. Sounds like you've done a fab job getting that far! How old is he now?

And Cortez - I didn't get what that comment was aimed at, was it ported snaffles?
Click to expand...

He's 4 now. He improved a lot when I started to use a fly mask with soft ear covers. Putting that on daily through the fly season seemed to get him used to the idea of his ears being gently touched without any grabbing. I have to say it has opened my eyes to how just one negative incident can stay with a horse for years. His breeder never used the Vet that ear twitched him again (it was done when he was microchipped).
 
cptrayes said:
No, I've never understood the port ban, and now these other bits are available it's a complete nonsense :)
Click to expand...

It does seem weird when they allow Mullen mouths... They should do what they do with weymouths and have a port height limit.

F, bless him, sounds like you've done a fab job, and yeah it's surprising how long something like that can stay with them. At four there's hope he'll get easier to bridle at any rate. Well done on persevering!
 
IMO its actually pretty clear distinction-if the horse has a medical problem eg previous injury or genetic deformity that prevents it from taking a mouthpiece thats one thing entirely.

A horse that CAN physically accept a mouthpiece but will only go nicely in a gag/pelham/whatever is a training issue. Sorry but it is. There are SO many BD legal snaffles on the market now days there is one to suit all horses but the rider has to then work on the submission and engagement instead of letting poll pressure do it for them! If its the poll pressure element that lets you ride him he would have been fine in most bitless which to some degree use poll pressure anyway, so you would be ok with hypothetical bitless dressage.

I school a pony for someone, previously won at elem and schooled to adv med. Hes had a long lay off and can be strong at the best of times. He is currently in a lozenge wilkie snaffle as hes going through a phase of literally racing out his right shoulder and running in to the hedge. Hes as wide as hes tall and i simply cant stop him. So hes doing tons of transitions and lateral work in the wilkie so that i can keep things short and sweet and work him without fatiguing him through arguing and AS SOON as he is 100% and has stopped the bogging off he will be back in his snaffle. He doesnt prefer the wilkie, its just stops him better! There is a very obvious distinction here and people need to be honest with themselves about why they use certain bits even as a short term measure.

It would be much easier if i could compete in the wilkie but i know it wouldnt be an honest contact or true engagement so instead im prepared to work my balls off to get correct work in a legal snaffle.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
IMO its actually pretty clear distinction-if the horse has a medical problem eg previous injury or genetic deformity that prevents it from taking a mouthpiece thats one thing entirely.

A horse that CAN physically accept a mouthpiece but will only go nicely in a gag/pelham/whatever is a training issue. Sorry but it is. There are SO many BD legal snaffles on the market now days there is one to suit all horses but the rider has to then work on the submission and engagement instead of letting poll pressure do it for them! If its the poll pressure element that lets you ride him he would have been fine in most bitless which to some degree use poll pressure anyway, so you would be ok with hypothetical bitless dressage.

I school a pony for someone, previously won at elem and schooled to adv med. Hes had a long lay off and can be strong at the best of times. He is currently in a lozenge wilkie snaffle as hes going through a phase of literally racing out his right shoulder and running in to the hedge. Hes as wide as hes tall and i simply cant stop him. So hes doing tons of transitions and lateral work in the wilkie so that i can keep things short and sweet and work him without fatiguing him through arguing and AS SOON as he is 100% and has stopped the bogging off he will be back in his snaffle. He doesnt prefer the wilkie, its just stops him better! There is a very obvious distinction here and people need to be honest with themselves about why they use certain bits even as a short term measure.

It would be much easier if i could compete in the wilkie but i know it wouldnt be an honest contact or true engagement so instead im prepared to work my balls off to get correct work in a legal snaffle.
Click to expand...

Yes, but what about those horses who are in bitless bridles because the training is lacking, in a similar vein, rather than because they have a physical problem? I'm not denying that my horse that only went well in a gag had a hole somewhere in his training (it was nothing to do with being strong by the way - it was a tension thing), but how does a horse with NO physical problem ridden bitless have the moral high ground? Most of the horses I meet ridden bitless have no such physical problem.

Yes, you meet the odd one, but most of the time I see it as either a choice by the rider or the same lack of training you illustrate in the gag. This is the part I see as very hypocritical.
 
I think your example is a good one P*Sparkle, we too used a stronger bit when we first got Topaz to keep herself, me and other competitors safe. It was about having the force of control to deal with her behaviour, when calm she's always been a snaffle mouthed ride, but it wasn't worth the risk when first exposing her to the world. Now she is older more mature and knows what to expect at comps she is back in a snaffle for everything again (bar hunting and this might be the one thing the gag has to stay for).

Most people I know who have tried bitless have done so because of contact or bitting issues, which I do see as training issues. I am all for upping a bit or using bitless to overcome a specific problem but I would always be trying to aim to get the horse back in the simplest tack I could.

Using Faracat as an example (I hope you don't mind!), the horse as some serious ingrained memory/behavioural issues with his head which has resulted in a bitless bridle being used. It isn't, from what FC has said, a physical issue, so whilst she is working on the issue (and appears to be doing great work) should she be able to compete bitless whilst she is filling in the gaps in his training? I'm kinda assuming that being bitted is the end goal, it might not be or might not ever be achieved for this horse so what then, it isn't a physical reason for not having a bit but an issue which could be as insurmountable as having a mouth conformation which cannot take one.

It would be, I think, too hard to differentiate and enforce only the horses which cannot take a bit being allowed to be bitless rather than those who find it easier to use leverage/taking the bit away as a short-cut. I know of no horse personally who have a mouth conformation which couldn't take one of the many BD legal snaffles, I know far more who don't have the correct training to go well in one.

Sorry that was a bit of an essay :o.

x x
 
AlexHyde said:
I know of no horse personally who have a mouth conformation which couldn't take one of the many BD legal snaffles, I know far more who don't have the correct training to go well in one.



x x
Click to expand...

So while the horse is working towards possibly being bitted (in Faracat's case), is there an argument for it to be competed in normal classes HC? (As far as I know HC isn't allowed in other 'illegal' tack?).

Mine doesn't have poor mouth conformation other than a whacking great big tumour in it - so chances are that he won't be able to go in a BD legal snaffle, or any bit long term (the jury's still out)....but we're working towards getting him out and about again, and I'd be happy to compete him HC if need be - at least until things become clearer about whether he can take a bit long term.
 
Being a simple person I take a very simple view on this.
If you want to compete in a competition then you abide by the rules. If the equipment you have falls outside the rules then either change the equipment or enter a different competition. I would not be expecting Formula 1 to change the rules to allow me to run my family saloon. The fact that I cant afford to run an F1 car or dont have the skill to drive at the required speed is just tough. Competing is not a right, it is a choice we have to make regarding what we have and what we can do within the rules. It is not about changing the rules to include everyone.
 
Twiglet said:
So while the horse is working towards possibly being bitted (in Faracat's case), is there an argument for it to be competed in normal classes HC? (As far as I know HC isn't allowed in other 'illegal' tack?).

Mine doesn't have poor mouth conformation other than a whacking great big tumour in it - so chances are that he won't be able to go in a BD legal snaffle, or any bit long term (the jury's still out)....but we're working towards getting him out and about again, and I'd be happy to compete him HC if need be - at least until things become clearer about whether he can take a bit long term.
Click to expand...

Sorry Twiglet, I meant to add that of course there are horse's out there which do have physical issues but just they are fortunately in the minority! I can't see why HC shouldn't be allowed, you get to take them out but it wouldn't effect anyone else?

Hope Buzz is doing well still, his story is an inspiration.

x x
 
PaddyMonty said:
Being a simple person I take a very simple view on this.
If you want to compete in a competition then you abide by the rules. If the equipment you have falls outside the rules then either change the equipment or enter a different competition. I would not be expecting Formula 1 to change the rules to allow me to run my family saloon. The fact that I cant afford to run an F1 car or dont have the skill to drive at the required speed is just tough. Competing is not a right, it is a choice we have to make regarding what we have and what we can do within the rules. It is not about changing the rules to include everyone.
Click to expand...

I'm another simple person. I'm not a huge dressage person, however my last hunter went sweetly so I took him along to a local every so often - he schooled nicely but I came to the conclusion that he went best in a dutch gag with two reins and a leather curb and that was that really. Now if I had really wanted to do BD, I would have worked on his schooling and got him going nicely in something BD legal.

I don't feel aggrieved, rules are there for an even playing field. Event organisers and helpers work very hard, especially at affiliated level as their members are paying membership fees - even the most slight of rule changes apply a lot of stress to organisers and staff - can you imagine the pandemonium which would ensue when bitless classes were introduced.
 
AlexHyde said:
I think your example is a good one P*Sparkle, we too used a stronger bit when we first got Topaz to keep herself, me and other competitors safe. It was about having the force of control to deal with her behaviour, when calm she's always been a snaffle mouthed ride, but it wasn't worth the risk when first exposing her to the world. Now she is older more mature and knows what to expect at comps she is back in a snaffle for everything again (bar hunting and this might be the one thing the gag has to stay for).

Most people I know who have tried bitless have done so because of contact or bitting issues, which I do see as training issues. I am all for upping a bit or using bitless to overcome a specific problem but I would always be trying to aim to get the horse back in the simplest tack I could.

Using Faracat as an example (I hope you don't mind!), the horse as some serious ingrained memory/behavioural issues with his head which has resulted in a bitless bridle being used. It isn't, from what FC has said, a physical issue, so whilst she is working on the issue (and appears to be doing great work) should she be able to compete bitless whilst she is filling in the gaps in his training? I'm kinda assuming that being bitted is the end goal, it might not be or might not ever be achieved for this horse so what then, it isn't a physical reason for not having a bit but an issue which could be as insurmountable as having a mouth conformation which cannot take one.

It would be, I think, too hard to differentiate and enforce only the horses which cannot take a bit being allowed to be bitless rather than those who find it easier to use leverage/taking the bit away as a short-cut. I know of no horse personally who have a mouth conformation which couldn't take one of the many BD legal snaffles, I know far more who don't have the correct training to go well in one.

Sorry that was a bit of an essay :o.

x x
Click to expand...

Very well said. There ARE horses like Buzz for example who actually have a physical problem requiring bitless, but most of them aren't. And how do you justify allowing holes in training for one set of horses, in bitless, and not for another, in gags/Pelhams/wilkies?

I think drawing the line would actually be the bigger problem, and be very unfair.

Twiglet said:
So while the horse is working towards possibly being bitted (in Faracat's case), is there an argument for it to be competed in normal classes HC? (As far as I know HC isn't allowed in other 'illegal' tack?).

Mine doesn't have poor mouth conformation other than a whacking great big tumour in it - so chances are that he won't be able to go in a BD legal snaffle, or any bit long term (the jury's still out)....but we're working towards getting him out and about again, and I'd be happy to compete him HC if need be - at least until things become clearer about whether he can take a bit long term.
Click to expand...

Some RCs allow illegal tack HC, if cleared first, for this very reason.

PaddyMonty said:
Being a simple person I take a very simple view on this.
If you want to compete in a competition then you abide by the rules. If the equipment you have falls outside the rules then either change the equipment or enter a different competition. I would not be expecting Formula 1 to change the rules to allow me to run my family saloon. The fact that I cant afford to run an F1 car or dont have the skill to drive at the required speed is just tough. Competing is not a right, it is a choice we have to make regarding what we have and what we can do within the rules. It is not about changing the rules to include everyone.
Click to expand...

This!!

And this is why I am not against a separate body setting up bitless dressage series a la western dressage, but very against it BD. Set up another body and make your own rules, and no one can complain.

RunToEarth said:
I'm another simple person. I'm not a huge dressage person, however my last hunter went sweetly so I took him along to a local every so often - he schooled nicely but I came to the conclusion that he went best in a dutch gag with two reins and a leather curb and that was that really. Now if I had really wanted to do BD, I would have worked on his schooling and got him going nicely in something BD legal.

I don't feel aggrieved, rules are there for an even playing field. Event organisers and helpers work very hard, especially at affiliated level as their members are paying membership fees - even the most slight of rule changes apply a lot of stress to organisers and staff - can you imagine the pandemonium which would ensue when bitless classes were introduced.
Click to expand...

This is how I felt with my horse who went in a gag - sad that we couldn't compete, but not aggrieved. He couldn't be a dressage horse - and I'd argue a bitless horse can't either.
 
Comparing a bitless to a gag or to a Pelham etc is laughable. A bitless (and I mean a mild kind head hugging Dr cook or a side pull) inflicts no pain and no threat of pain on the bars of a horses mouth. It involves no force. If a horse goes better wits a gag or a stronger bit of course that's reason enough to not allow them to compete.
But literally taking away force and pain is a completely different thing as is 100% for the horses comfort and well being and can in no way benefit the riders control! And by control i mean it cannot force an outline it cannot hold a false over bent outline and it cannot do anything other than benefit a horse... or other than that their horse is now happier and pain free and probably more willing and through.
The leg to hand still applies but will only achieve collection by the few riders who are in true balance using their legs and seats.
It's nothing like comparing other tack/bits etc. It's taking away not adding.
 
Of course but I refer to bitless that are chosen by the people trying to do their very best by their horses in side pull or dr cook etc. Even the tightest hold on a dr cook won't cause pain.
 
MummyEms, welcome to the forum but this is an old thread you've chosen to dredge up!

My horse hates the Dr Cook, doesn't like the feeling of it 'hugging his head'. Am I being cruel to ride him in a snaffle bridle instead? How are you supposed to teach a horse to accept the contact if you're not giving them one?
 
Hi. Thank you.
Well it can be unforgiving and can cause pain. I assume you have good hands so fingers crossed not too much pain if your horse goes in a soft light frame. :/
You can have a contact bitless. They can work into one happily and with no pain at all. They'll develop self carriage and balance a lot quicker with bitless too :)
 
My horse cannot be bitted, he has a sarcoid in the corner of his mouth, if he is bitted it splits open and causes pain. I ride him bitless ( dr. cooks) and would love to go to my local venue and do a bit of prelim. It is 'harder' to train bitless for your average rider as there is less margin for hiding the true self carriage of the horse. Whereas bitless, the self carriage (or lack thereof) is evident.
 
ApolloStorm said:
My horse cannot be bitted, he has a sarcoid in the corner of his mouth, if he is bitted it splits open and causes pain. I ride him bitless ( dr. cooks) and would love to go to my local venue and do a bit of prelim. It is 'harder' to train bitless for your average rider as there is less margin for hiding the true self carriage of the horse. Whereas bitless, the self carriage (or lack thereof) is evident.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
MummyEms said:
Hi. Thank you.
Well it can be unforgiving and can cause pain. I assume you have good hands so fingers crossed not too much pain if your horse goes in a soft light frame. :/
You can have a contact bitless. They can work into one happily and with no pain at all. They'll develop self carriage and balance a lot quicker with bitless too :)
Click to expand...

Why would they develop self carriage and balance quicker?
 
MummyEms said:
Of course but I refer to bitless that are chosen by the people trying to do their very best by their horses in side pull or dr cook etc. Even the tightest hold on a dr cook won't cause pain.
Click to expand...
and that right there is why the two groups should never try to compete under the same rules.
I can just imagine the whip fights at dawn when the evangelicals at A face the diehards at C. Both groups glare at each other for a minute before charging at medium canter and clashing at X.
 
PaddyMonty said:
and that right there is why the two groups should never try to compete under the same rules.
I can just imagine the whip fights at dawn when the evangelicals at A face the diehards at C. Both groups glare at each other for a minute before charging at medium canter and clashing at X.
Click to expand...

This made me lol :)
 
Because they're less on the forehand. More able to concentrate and are able to move forward from behind and engage a lot easier. A lot more expressive in their paces :)
 
MummyEms said:
Because they're less on the forehand. More able to concentrate and are able to move forward from behind and engage a lot easier. A lot more expressive in their paces :)[/QUO

Its a very sweeping generalisation you are making here without any research or reasoning behind it, is it that you have trained or retrained many horses and found that this is the case? I am genuinely interested to know where that conclusion comes from?
Click to expand...
 
Yes I used to re back and re start ruined horses. I ran a small yard before I had children and every horse without exception went better bitless than bitted and many horses who had been written off went on to compete successfully mostly BE and some hunting and team chasing.
Also lots of great research is on Dr Cooks website.
 
MummyEms said:
Yes I used to re back and re start ruined horses. I ran a small yard before I had children and every horse without exception went better bitless than bitted and many horses who had been written off went on to compete successfully mostly BE and some hunting and team chasing.
Also lots of great research is on Dr Cooks website.
Click to expand...

I don't suppose the research on Dr Cooks website would be impartial though being that they want to support the use of their product?

Perhaps you are right I just cannot see that anyone can say one thing is 'better' than another, if your horse is happy and performing well in either option then that's great and anyone's personal choice, but to say without exception that bitless works better and horses are lighter on the forehand and better balanced is, to me, generalising to the extreme.
 
Hi again. It probably does sound ridiculous to many of you. The proof is in the many horses way of going and so to me is easy to speak of in an enthusiastic manner. To the people who haven't tried it yet I am in no way critical of you :) I do hope those people may one day try it for themselves . Or if you have done then perhaps try again with using your seat and legs more than usual.
I truly think 99.9% of horses will go better either instantly or eventually.
I know it isn't legal BD of course :(
 
Sorry wrote that in a hurry putting children to bed. It is reasonably black and white with one being better than the other in my mind. Pain Vs no pain. Unnatural metal on sensitive gums in a mouth or no foreign object in such sensitive mouth. I just see it very clearly as obvious.
 
MummyEms said:
To the people who haven't tried it yet I am in no way critical of you :) I do hope those people may one day try it for themselves . Or if you have done then perhaps try again with using your seat and legs more than usual.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but critical is exactly what you have been and perhaps a little condecending.
The problem with taking the evangelical stance that some people do over things like bitless, barefoot, NH etc is that it closes their minds to other methods and forces a one way fits all.
In 51 years of working with horses, a lot of them with issues I've found the best way is to look at the horse in front of you and don't rule out any method. Forcing a horse down a particular route does both the horse and the trainer a dis-service
 
I hate the over reliance on a bit, heavy hands and ever kicking legs that I see a lot in lower level dressage. At Elementary level it made no difference to my horse whether we trained at home bitless or in a bit. Horses should round because they step under and use their backs, same for collection - a seat aid.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top