Bitting solutions for a nappy ass

[scruffyponies]

14.2hh NF gelding. 12yrs. Well schooled. On a good day can be hacked in anything, including a headcollar with a couple of ropes attached.
However, he naps, rears, jumps sideways and generally acts the tw*t whenever he feels like it, which is often schooling or when excited, such as warming up for xc, fun rides, pauses out hunting etc. Leans on left rein, and tries to spin out that way.

Tried (with just cavesson):
Snaffle - fine for normal work, but runs through it if he wants to. French link is worse, of course. Full cheek didn't help with leaning.
Kimblewick - control, but overbends something shocking, and it winds him up.
bubble gag (middle ring) - control, but seems to increase the rearing

Now, I know that some of the answer here is in the rider's hands (15yo, very competent), but if we can help her by getting the bitting right, that would help.
She hasn't got the experience to use two reins with such a difficult ride.

Options that I am mulling atm:
Flash, drop or grackle noseband
Cheek brush on left
More moderate gag

What do you guys think? Especially the nosebands, as it's not something I usually reach for.

 

[Carlosmum]

With my NF I find less is more, I ride in a snaffle with lozenge and a cavesson noseband. He still leaps about and spins but he has never reared. I would be checking saddle etc, but it sounds like excitement and frustration. Keep him going forward as much as possible. My old NF would rear when he was held up out hunting so i stopped hunting him. It was his answer to relieve frustration when he didn't know what to do.

 

[scruffyponies]

^^ I agree about the confusion, frustration thing. I ride him to 'sort' issues when he gets worse, and find that it often helps to back the pressure off for a moment and give him chance to think. He is very smart, and will often take the right decision if you give him chance.
He can be quite strong though.

 

[Elno]

Waterford maybe? Harder to lean on.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

With the gag, did you try having the reins on the bit ring, so essentially turning it into a hanging cheek? I would try that just to see if he rears with that set up as you would then know if the problem was the poll pressure or not.

RE nosebands, I would try a well fitting drop or grackle over the flash. Try with his normal snaffle to start with so you are only making one change at a time.

 

[scruffyponies]

Waterford maybe? Harder to lean on.

I worry that this would pull through, which would be really harsh, as he pulls to the side, rather than straight, particularly as they have to be fitted big. If he was just a straightforward leaner/puller, I'd be right with you.

 

[Landcruiser]

Just a thought...bitless...hackamore?

 

[scruffyponies]

Just a thought...bitless...hackamore?

It would be an interesting experiment, certainly. My guess is that he would take the piss and leave the rider with little control, but you never know.

 

[scruffyponies]

I would try that just to see if he rears with that set up as you would then know if the problem was the poll pressure or not.

He rears quite often in any bit, and could be simply because he can't get his own way as easily with the gag. I have spent many a happy half hour working through his napping on two legs in a simple snaffle... main difference in behaviour is that he is able to plunge forwards out of the rear with the snaffle, i.e. straight into and through it.

I do think your idea is correct though - on snaffle ring, or maybe with roundings so that amount of gag action can be adjusted.

 

[sportsmansB]

If he goes one way all the time have you considered a bit brush?

 

[TPO]

I know this is the boring and predictable answer but ....training, of both horse and rider.

To keep upping the pain/pressure with bits and removing the horses ability to relieve it by using noseband to keep the mouth shut is never going to end well.

A snaffle is plenty severe enough; try placing it in the bend of your (generic) elbow and applying rein pressure.

If this is new behaviour I'd look for the catalyst be it a sharp tooth or a lumpy numnah.

If it's been an escalation of him "chancing his luck"* then back to school in half and walk until he learns to respond to the slightest pressure. Once walk/halt/back up are sorted then trot and canter.

A horse can feel a fly so metal in a mouth is enough without escalating it. We should always be looking to do as little as possible and to refine aids instead of upping the pressure.

That's not to say that harder aids might not be required when reeducating the horse but the aim is to make them less and less.

My current favourite thing is the 7 clinics dvd series by Buck Brannaman. It is so simple but simple doesnt equal easy.

He shows exactly how to work with horses behaving as you've described on the ground and under saddle. All done in a snaffle or a halter. All the first rides are done in a halter and one lead rope. The horses are so soft to pressure on the ground that they bend to a stop with a halter.

I just think we (generic) are very quick to bit and noseband up without address the basic training and filling the gaps in the training and/or going back to build a solid foundation

*I know horses dont operate like this

 

[Birker2020]

My answer is even more boring and predictable than TPO's lol. I assume he's had all the usual dentistry/vet/physio/saddle checks so you can rule out the bad behaviour as not being anything pain related?

If so I'd try like Landcruiser said, in a hackamore in an enclosed area first before you venture further afield. You might find he regards nose and poll pressure as the real deal.

 

[scruffyponies]

If he goes one way all the time have you considered a bit brush?

Yes - I called it a 'cheek brush' in my options.
Have never used one before, so interested in other people's experience.

 

[Birker2020]

Yes - I called it a 'cheek brush' in my options.
Have never used one before, so interested in other people's experience.

I refer you to reply 12.

 

[scruffyponies]

Totally happy that it isn't pain, and I am totally in agreement with the 'less is more'. His rider is doing lots of clinics etc, and ultimately this will improve both of them. In the past I have often found that a change of bit might be helpful for a specific problem, but can then be quietly dumped once they have learned the right response. This pony, for example, hated a single joint snaffle when first backed, and spent several years in a lozenge, but goes perfectly well in one now that he knows how to accept the contact.

Latest from us was the fulmer snaffle (i.e. bitting down), thinking that he might appreciate it, but it wasn't the answer.

 

[scruffyponies]

I refer you to reply 12.

The only hackamore I have in the tackroom is a german one, which I wouldn't use for him in a million years, so I'd have to buy or borrow.
Do you recommend english or side pull, especially given his tendancy to be less than genuine? I have never used either.

 

[Birker2020]

The only hackamore I have in the tackroom is a german one, which I wouldn't use for him in a million years, so I'd have to buy or borrow.
Do you recommend english or side pull, especially given his tendancy to be less than genuine? I have never used either.

Sorry I know you're not deliberately being evasive. I was just wondering has the horse been checked out to rule out physical pain?
Personally I'd save your money and not bother buying a hackamore and just see how the horse responds in a dually if you know one you can borrow of someone.

My horse was amazing in his dually, totally different way of going. Used to long rein/hack/school and jump in it. Sadly not allowed to jump competetively in it. I had better brakes using it than a standard bit.

 

[TPO]

I'm hopeless as remembering who a poster is from one thread to another but weren't you the same poster with saddle fit issues?

There a high chance that behaviour like this could be linked to a saddle that doesnt fit well. I'm pretty sure that there were some detailed replies on those threads. I think you decided against getting a fitter or changing saddles?

In your shoes I'd want horse looked at by, at least, a physio and saddle fitter if not a vet and wouldn't be dismissing pain as a factor.

You seem fairly set on the path to up the anti with bitting and nosebands so will leave you to it

 

[holeymoley]

Might not be popular here and I agree with the training and time comments.

When mine was a youngster and he didn’t get his own way(napping out through shoulder and taking off) a dutch gag was plenty for him. We had one rein on the snaffle side and one rein on the next ring down. That was the side that he 99% of the time dropped the shoulder on. It was enough just to enforce the ‘no you don’t ‘.

He had a very bad start to ridden work and we had to re back him. He hated every part of being ridden especially schooled. One of his best moments was dropping the shouler through mid schooling session and cantering off down the track with me. Thankfully we are very far off any roads. This bit set up was enough just for that slight but more control. I’m glad to say the thought never enters his head now and hasn’t for many many years. He’s ridden in a simple snaffle and has competed up to novice dressage.

Waffled on a bit there. The waterford didn’t work for him, it was much too strong. He overbent with it. I would say the rearing is probably just throwing the toys out the pram.

 

[J&S]

Have you tried a vulcanite pelham ? My NF mare who could be pretty head strong became perfect pony with one.

 

[Annagain]

He sounds like Archie in terms of the type of behaviour, especially the leaning to the left and spinning that way when napping. In Archie's case, he mainly did it when there were jumps around and his issue was pain in his right fore (hence always spinning left) - coffin joint arthritis. As soon as we stopped jumping the napping improved a lot although he still had his moments if he was somewhere where he had to leave horses behind. We did a lot of Trek after he stopped jumping and our biggest challenge was leaving the start line - once we were away, we were fine until we were nearly home when he could see the other horses and want to get back to them. In a group I had no chance of holding him or taking him away, we just had to go with everyone else, he'd run through almost every bit I'd ever tried.

The only bit I could hold him in, in really exciting situations (e.g. fun rides with lots of other horses around) was a waterford three ring gag. He fought against many other bits that weren't so strong but seemed instantly comfortable in the waterford and the leaning to the left stopped from the first day he wore it. You've already said the gag was too much for your horse and I understand what you're saying about the waterford pulling through but I think it's worth a try of the mouthpiece. I'm a big believer that the horse chooses the mouthpiece he needs to be comfortable and the rider chooses the cheek pieces they need to have control.

The other mouth piece Archie liked was a mullen mouth. For flat work, a hanging cheek mullen mouth snaffle was by far the best for him - it was really mild so he didn't fight it. That meant it had an effect when I used it. It was especially good for him coupled with a Micklem bridle.

We tried both a German and an English hackamore and while I had brakes, I had no steering at all.

 

[scruffyponies]

has the horse been checked out to rule out physical pain

Saddle is recently professionally fitted - and not the only one he goes perfectly well in. He isn't saddle-fussy. Behaviour is situational. I can hack him out without issue. He's also fit and sound, and has recently had a routine vet check.

weren't you the same poster with saddle fit issues?

Different horse. This one is a fairly standard shape.

You seem fairly set on the path to up the anti with bitting and nosebands

Hardly - if you read above I said our latest move was to drop the gag in favour of a full cheek snaffle.

see how the horse responds in a dually

I thought a dually was a training aid, for bad loaders and the like. Would never have considered riding in one. What advantage would it have over a hackamore?

 

[scruffyponies]

He sounds like Archie in terms of the type of behaviour, especially the leaning to the left and spinning that way when napping. In Archie's case, he mainly did it when there were jumps around and his issue was pain in his right fore (hence always spinning left) - coffin joint arthritis. As soon as we stopped jumping the napping improved a lot although he still had his moments if he was somewhere where he had to leave horses behind. We did a lot of Trek after he stopped jumping and our biggest challenge was leaving the start line - once we were away, we were fine until we were nearly home when he could see the other horses and want to get back to them. In a group I had no chance of holding him or taking him away, we just had to go with everyone else, he'd run through almost every bit I'd ever tried.

The only bit I could hold him in, in really exciting situations (e.g. fun rides with lots of other horses around) was a waterford three ring gag. He fought against many other bits that weren't so strong but seemed instantly comfortable in the waterford and the leaning to the left stopped from the first day he wore it. You've already said the gag was too much for your horse and I understand what you're saying about the waterford pulling through but I think it's worth a try of the mouthpiece. I'm a big believer that the horse chooses the mouthpiece he needs to be comfortable and the rider chooses the cheek pieces they need to have control.

The other mouth piece Archie liked was a mullen mouth. For flat work, a hanging cheek mullen mouth snaffle was by far the best for him - it was really mild so he didn't fight it. That meant it had an effect when I used it. It was especially good for him coupled with a Micklem bridle.

We tried both a German and an English hackamore and while I had brakes, I had no steering at all.

This is really interesting. Duke isn't anything like as strong as Archie sounds (a 15yo girl is holding him when he tries to tank in a snaffle), and he seems to actively enjoy jumping, but the napping back is just like him.

Based on your experience with the mullen mouth, I think I might just try popping that kimblewick back on him but without the curb, and maybe not totally rule out the waterford just yet.

The Micklem would have a similar effect to a grackle or drop noseband, would it not?

 

[scruffyponies]

Have you tried a vulcanite pelham ? My NF mare who could be pretty head strong became perfect pony with one.

I have one of these, but based on the overbending in the kimblewick, have steered clear of pelhams for him.

 

[Birker2020]

I thought a dually was a training aid, for bad loaders and the like. Would never have considered riding in one. What advantage would it have over a hackamore?

A dually responds to pressure on the nose. In the same way that you reward a horse using a dually in hand (pressure and release when it yields to the pressure) you do when riding. It makes the horse very light on the forehand and with my horse it really opened him up in a way I'd not seen him move before. I only had glimpses, obviously it's something that is worked on and improved over time.

I stopped using it due to the ribbing I was getting from others, which was a shame really and although I felt completely in control in an inside setting or an outside fenced menage, I'd not really have felt that confident on a fun ride or doing XC.

 

[Auslander]

I would be inclined to avoid a hackamore on something that spins - emergency steering can be decidedly dodgy!

 

[rosiesue]

If physical stuff ruled out ...Dr Cooks? As long as it releases quickly. The beta version?

 

[scruffyponies]

I would be inclined to avoid a hackamore on something that spins - emergency steering can be decidedly dodgy!

That's my understanding too. It also needs to be enough to keep him straight into a fence.

 

[Annagain]

This is really interesting. Duke isn't anything like as strong as Archie sounds (a 15yo girl is holding him when he tries to tank in a snaffle), and he seems to actively enjoy jumping, but the napping back is just like him.

Based on your experience with the mullen mouth, I think I might just try popping that kimblewick back on him but without the curb, and maybe not totally rule out the waterford just yet.

The Micklem would have a similar effect to a grackle or drop noseband, would it not?

The selling point of the Micklem is it avoids the trigeminal nerve so is more comfortable for the horse. My feeling is that it holds the bit very still in the horse's mouth so if a horse is very fussy in the mouth they like the stillness. This is backed up by the fact that a mullen mouth hanging cheek is about as still as it gets - Arch was happy enough in it with a normal bridle and cavesson noseband but was happier again in the Micklem.

Yes he was (is, he's still alive, just retired - due to the coffin joint arthritis) very very strong when he wanted to be. The hard thing with him was that 99% of the time he was a darling. Because of that it was impossible to train it out of him. When he wasn't excited you could stop him really easily in the mullen mouth and when he was doing it his head had gone so there was no way you could train anything at that point. There was no malice in him though, just too much adrenalin. He's never bucked or reared in his life. I'd try a mullen mouth rather than the kimblewick again if you can - the curve of the mouthpiece really seemed to help Archie - his was Myler and the curve was even more pronounced than most others and it seemed to be more comfortable for him. He has a HUGE tongue and hated anything jointed - even with a lozenge. I think that's why he liked the waterford too - it was very flexible so moulded around his tongue.

I definitely think the spinning and napping in one direction is worth a further look at though. As I said, Archie always went left - even playing in the field now he'll turn 270 degrees left rather than 90 to the right given a choice.

 

[scruffyponies]

dutch gag was plenty for him. We had one rein on the snaffle side and one rein on the next ring down

I just re-read your post HM. Initially I thought you meant two sets of reins. Have only just realised you mean one side on each. Have never heard of that being done before.