Boots, tops, garter straps, spurs, spur staps

[Judgemental]

By popular request I have started this thread. It seems there are an increasing number of folk hunting and wanting to hunt, who are coming onto this forum for help and guidance.

The subject of: boots, tops, garter straps, spurs, spur staps is not really covered in any detail elsewhere, so here's my contribution.

Top Boots, i.e. black boots with brown tops should only be worn with a Pink Coat (it's Pink not Red) or colour of the hunt livery.

A black coat for gentlemen and blue coat for ladies should be accompanied with black boots and all tops should be removed.

Garter Straps should be white only with top boots and black with black boots.

Spurs generally, should be snub nosed worn with black staps on black boots.

One is incorrectly dressed not to have spurs with black boots and black or blue coat.

 

[Daddy_Long_Legs]

I thought that men could wear topped boots regardless of the colour of their jacket!

 

[Capriole]

are dummy spurs acceptable?

 

[tootsietoo]

Ladies may wear black or navy coats. A friend of mine had a new one made by Frank Hall and was told that both are correct but that "black is more correct" - if that is possible! I think I prefer the slightly less girly look of a black coat.

Also, garter straps are an anachronism now. They were originally to hook through the buttons of your breeches to stop them coming up, but now we have stretchy fabrics and velcro they're not really needed. Well anyway that's what I tell everyone as I cannot justify replacing my fancy non-garter-strapped dressage boots with hunting boots!

And I would love to know the definitive answer to the Pink/Red question. Apparently Mr Pink made the original red coat, but when he made it it would have been a red coat wouldn't it? And it is actually red, so it's not inaccurate to call it a red coat really, is it?

It really is too late for a fascinatingly pedantic conversation on hunting dress though, I must go to bed. You are keeping me up Judgemental!

 

[Daddy_Long_Legs]

Mr Pink didn't make the first hunt coat. There is no recorded details of a tailor called pink in London. Thomas Pink didn't come along until way after the first pink coats!

I don't think there is a definite answer to why the coats are pink but I think it is appropriate to call them scarlet? Feel free to correct me!

 

[MissySmythe]

Oooh entering the minefield here!

OK, as far as I know, the Thomas Pink of the 'pink coat' was an 18th century chappie, and the brand of today's times is named after him, but no connection. Certainly when I was a youngster it would have been considered very infra dig to refer to a hunt coat as 'red'.

On a similarly fogy-ish note, garter straps, whether one wears buttoned breeches or not, are essential. Boots look very naff without on the hunting field unless they are field boot style (and worn with appropriate rig)

On spurs I recall many years ago a hunter judge who told me straight "My dear girl, a boot is not correctly dressed without a spur". (I left the spurs off that particular horse as it was a young nutter we were trying to educate. It didn't cart the judge though!)

Happy sartorial discussions!

 

[spacefaer]

Judgemental, if you are going to be so pedantic about hunt dress, why not go the whole way?

Truly traditional hunt dress should be
either a silk hat, scarlet coat, white breeches, top boots
or silk hat worn with black coat, white or fawn breeches and top boots

Caps were worn by farmers, masters and hunt staff. Farmers wore them with plain or "butcher" boots and masters or hunt staff wore top boots.

At this time, women were riding side saddle.

IMHO it's more important that people trying hunting for the first time are made to feel welcome, rather than initially intimidated by this minutiae.

 

[Judgemental]

I thought that men could wear topped boots regardless of the colour of their jacket!

No that is simply not correct. Black coat and top boots, tut tut.

I knew this thread would generate a comment or two on Pink and Red. It's Pink - no arguments - Wikipedia confirms the same!

I suppose one might as well throw the other old chestnut into the pot. The subject of Stocks and Tie's

In my humble opinion it's all the fault of The late 10th Duke of Beaufort, who felt like stirring the pot with his humor and once said "stock is something one cooks with and the thing around your neck is a tie".

So the hoi poli, the chattering masses all said "his grace said it's a hunting tie not a stock".

Both the Oxford Dictionary and Wikipedia describe a stock as follows:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: (June 2009)

A stock-tie, or stock, is a white tie worn around the neck of a competitor riding in an equestrian event. It is required in fox hunting, dressage, and the dressage phase of eventing, and is also seen in show jumping. It is always worn with a pin (usually plain and gold, although fancier pins are also seen), stuck through the knot or just below the knot.

The stock is traditionally used in the hunt field as a safety measure: in case of injury, the tie can be used as a temporary bandage for a horse's leg or sling for a rider's arm. It is also useful in keeping rain or wind out of the rider's collar.They are often worn by riders along with a shadbelly.

Off the hunting field, the stock tie was a formal tie worn in the 19th century by gentlemen. These old stock ties were often black or white, made of gauze, fine cotton or silk. The stock tie was sometimes starched or otherwise reinforced to be stiff around the neck: with the chin forced up, the wearer was thought to look more important and formal. Stocks buckled or hooked up the back and sometimes had bows or ruffles attached to the front.

 

[spacefaer]

Judgemental, I'm gutted. I have always been under the impression that you wrote with some authority based on years of experience.

I shall no longer take your posts seriously, knowing that you are basing your information on the notoriously inaccurate Wikipedia.

 

[Daddy_Long_Legs]

Judgemental, if you are going to be so pedantic about hunt dress, why not go the whole way?

Truly traditional hunt dress should be
either a silk hat, scarlet coat, white breeches, top boots
or silk hat worn with black coat, white or fawn breeches and top boots

Caps were worn by farmers, masters and hunt staff. Farmers wore them with plain or "butcher" boots and masters or hunt staff wore top boots.

At this time, women were riding side saddle.

IMHO it's more important that people trying hunting for the first time are made to feel welcome, rather than initially intimidated by this minutiae.

Totally agree Spacefaer to be honest I couldn't give a rattle if someone is wearing spurs or not, if you are not comfortable wearing spurs don't wear them.

It's the 21st century not the 18th plus back onto the subject of topped boots, wear them if you want.

 

[Judgemental]

Judgemental, I'm gutted. I have always been under the impression that you wrote with some authority based on years of experience.

I shall no longer take your posts seriously, knowing that you are basing your information on the notoriously inaccurate Wikipedia.

Specefaer, hold hard a moment. It really is amazing how many times this discussion comes up on this forum. Hitherto I have never been involved in the 'Stock Pot' threads but have read several.

It's a stock not a tie, my personal view.

However, as it is constantly debated I felt that Wikipedia was a bipartisan non-hunting, non-equestrian authority, bearing in mind the number of times the issue has arisen.

On the subject of spurs. I disagree; we have been subjected to a ban.

Therefore etiquette, standards, disciplines, customs, procedures and rules, even the archaic ones, should be observed in order to maintain hunting and hopefully restore the status quo.

Anyway it's all part of the ritual of our little do and don'ts, the curious hunting expressions and adds to the greater glory of hunting.

 

[boneo]

May I take issue on one point raised on the question of boots, the late Ronnie Marmont, surely one of the best dressed men ever to grace covert side, and many others, including myself, hunted for years in a black swallow tailed coat, hunt buttons, silk hats and mahogany topped boots, we also wore our 'pink' but felt the swallow tail much more stylish, and on warm days, more comfortable, I look back over some 60 years, when the field was really well dressed, and people took pride in their turnout, as did the grooms with the horses

 

[tootsietoo]

Discussions about turnout are entertaining but, as we probably all agree, turnout is not the main event by a long shot! How people behave on the hunting field are far more important! I got my hunt buttons whilst wearing naff dressage boots

I have a hunting obsessed friend who wouldn't go near a horse in a million years, and he sits on his quad picking apart the turnout of the mounted field. It really does annoy me - he's a on a quad, that's not very 19th century is it, let the rest of us into the 21st century too!!

 

[spacefaer]

Discussions about turnout are entertaining but, as we probably all agree, turnout is not the main event by a long shot! How people behave on the hunting field are far more important! I got my hunt buttons whilst wearing naff dressage boots

I have a hunting obsessed friend who wouldn't go near a horse in a million years, and he sits on his quad picking apart the turnout of the mounted field. It really does annoy me - he's a on a quad, that's not very 19th century is it, let the rest of us into the 21st century too!!

Couldn't agree more TT

 

[Judgemental]

Discussions about turnout are entertaining but, as we probably all agree, turnout is not the main event by a long shot! How people behave on the hunting field are far more important! I got my hunt buttons whilst wearing naff dressage boots Too laissez-faire for my taste. How very provincial. Next you will be telling us you turn your coat collar up when it rains!

In my world turnout and being CORRECTLY presented according to custom and procedure is a mark of respect to the master.

Anything else is considered bad manners and a discourtesy to the mastership.

The master and the hunt staff are all turned out exectly and precisely as prescribed, therefore every member of The Field should be similarly attired.

 

[sonjafoers]

I've just been on a 3 day hunting course and one of the evenings discussions was based around etiquette and dress. The coats were referred to as 'red', so I asked the question re 'pink' and was told either is correct but these days it is more common to hear them referred to as red

 

[Simsar]

In my world turnout and being CORRECTLY presented according to custom and procedure is a mark of respect to the master.

Anything else is considered bad manners and a discourtesy to the mastership.

The master and the hunt staff are all turned out exactly and precisely as prescribed, therefore every member of The Field should be similarly attired.

Couldn't agree more J, My mate Ginge married to SU huntsman wears dressage boots and I hate it. Each to their own unfortunately. Sorry I prefere tradition. xx

 

[MissySmythe]

Couldn't agree more J, My mate Ginge married to SU huntsman wears dressage boots and I hate it. Each to their own unfortunately. Sorry I prefere tradition. xx

I too prefer tradition and agree it is a mark of respect. It is also more fun actually, part of the excitement of hunting.

 

[posie_honey]

i'd rather see a large field of relaxed happy courteous riders enjoying a day and welcoming any support for hunting - regardless of attire faux pas or horse type etc - than a small field of unwelcoming traditionalist elite who - quite frankly - are often the epitamy of what the general public hates about hunting

and btw - yes i do prefer tradition - and its lovely to see totally correct attire - but i also think that its strick adherance to such 'rules' and catty comments regarding incorrect dress that can put people off the scene when we need as many supporters as possible

 

[Capriole]

i'd rather see a large field of relaxed happy courteous riders enjoying a day and welcoming any support for hunting - regardless of attire faux pas or horse type etc - than a small field of unwelcoming traditionalist elite who - quite frankly - are often the epitamy of what the general public hates about hunting

and btw - yes i do prefer tradition - and its lovely to see totally correct attire - but i also think that its strick adherance to such 'rules' and catty comments regarding incorrect dress that can put people off the scene when we need as many supporters as possible

mm, I agree with these statements.

I think what I might find more intimidating than the strict rules on traditional dress is, on being told spurs are correct and essential, I ask a perfectly reasonable question about the acceptability or otherwise of dummy spurs which went totally ignored and unanswered.
Which kind of makes me imagine that if I were to go hunting Id likely be ignored and talked over and made to feel thoroughly unwelcome because I dont know what spurs/gloves/other to wear...

 

[Judgemental]

i'd rather see a large field of relaxed happy courteous riders enjoying a day and welcoming any support for hunting - regardless of attire faux pas or horse type etc - than a small field of unwelcoming traditionalist elite who - quite frankly - are often the epitamy of what the general public hates about hunting

and btw - yes i do prefer tradition - and its lovely to see totally correct attire - but i also think that its strick adherance to such 'rules' and catty comments regarding incorrect dress that can put people off the scene when we need as many supporters as possible

If one belongs to a club (any type of club) one observes the rules and dress code!

 

[posie_honey]

If one belongs to a club (any type of club) one observes the rules and dress code!

congratulations - you have just probably

a) added fuel to the anti-hunt "all hunting folk are snobs" fire - the LACS would love you!

b) prob made some people who wanted to try hunting now feel like they can't/wont as they will be looked down apon for incorrect dress etc

and you call yourself a pro.....

 

[Capriole]

b) prob made some people who wanted to try hunting now feel like they can't/wont as they will be looked down apon for incorrect dress etc

.

no probably about it tbh.

 

[posie_honey]

I think what I might find more intimidating than the strict rules on traditional dress is, on being told spurs are correct and essential, I ask a perfectly reasonable question about the acceptability or otherwise of dummy spurs which went totally ignored and unanswered.
Which kind of makes me imagine that if I were to go hunting Id likely be ignored and talked over and made to feel thoroughly unwelcome because I dont know what spurs/gloves/other to wear...

sorry i didn't pick up on your post - i was too busy getting onto my soap box

to be honest - if you want to try hunting and your horse doesnt need spurs then don't wear them

if someone is rude/unwelcoming for not having spurs on then they really are hammering the nail in their own coffin and god forbid where hunting is going if attiudes like that continue. most hunting folk nowdays recognise the need to be welcoming and supportive of anyone who shows an interest

 

[Judgemental]

congratulations - you have just probably

a) added fuel to the anti-hunt "all hunting folk are snobs" fire - the LACS would love you! Don't think their view will change

b) prob made some people who wanted to try hunting now feel like they can't/wont as they will be looked down apon for incorrect dress etc

If they follow the codes of practive and rules then they won't be looked down upon. Also they will be doing a great service and promoting tailoring, saddlers and boot makers etc. Those who wish to engage in hunting and are worried about not doing the right thing, they only have to come onto this forum where there will receive advice by the HGV Lorry load!/B] l

and you call yourself a pro.... I assume you mean professional?.....[/ QUOTE]

 

[Capriole]

sorry i didn't pick up on your post - i was too busy getting onto my soap box

to be honest - if you want to try hunting and your horse doesnt need spurs then don't wear them

if someone is rude/unwelcoming for not having spurs on then they really are hammering the nail in their own coffin and god forbid where hunting is going if attiudes like that continue. most hunting folk nowdays recognise the need to be welcoming and supportive of anyone who shows an interest

thankyou posie honey

i did want to try hunting, but neither I or my sharp young horse have ever been before, nor have I ever used spurs on him. So I didnt feel the ideal place to use them would be on our first hunt, hence me asking about dummy spurs as I do want to make the effort to look correct.

I must say I feel enough like an unwelcome guest at someone elses party on this thread, was dreading to think what reception Id have out hunting

 

[Judgemental]

thankyou posie honey

i did want to try hunting, but neither I or my sharp young horse have ever been before, nor have I ever used spurs on him. So I didnt feel the ideal place to use them would be on our first hunt, hence me asking about dummy spurs as I do want to make the effort to look correct.

I must say I feel enough like an unwelcome guest at someone elses party on this thread, was dreading to think what reception Id have out hunting

Sorcerers Appentice, I see you have no less that 1,616 posts on the Horse and Hound Forum, you are a Veteran and have been a member since 19 May 2006.

Is this your first post concerning hunting?

 

[Kat]

SA, I don't hunt although I'd like to. I have been along on foot to a few different hunts, and personally I think the majority of hunts I've come across would take the view that when you are trying hunting out the main thing is that you make an effort with turn out.

Being neatly plaited and clean is respectful and failing to do turn out neatly is rude, to the hunt staff and the landowners. But people are understanding that as a newbie you may have only a tweed or only dressage topped boots or may not understand all of the finer points.

The majority of the hunting fraternity (in my experience) would rather have someone new who is keen and polite turn up and be willing to learn than to stay away and never come because they haven't bought 100% the right kit. The sport will never thrive like that!

Most "clubs" take a similar approach agreeing to bend the rules a little for prospective members to give them a taster and to help promote their sport.

Don't be put off by one or two people with inflexible attitudes, the majority are much more friendly and understanding. And of course the hunts with an understanding, welcoming and encouraging attitude are the ones which will thrive in these difficult times, the others will surely struggle to maintain significant numbers of supporters.

 

[Capriole]

Judgemental, yes it is I believe.

(eta: I admit Im failing to see why this is relevant however...)

 

[Judgemental]

Judgemental, yes it is I believe.

(eta: I admit Im failing to see why this is relevant however...)

and you have started 89 Threads.