Bought a lame pony - what would you do?

[Glitter's fun]

When you viewed the pony before purchase who rode him or did you or your instructor ride him too? (I don't recall seeing his height mentioned, apologies if I missed it.)
With hindsight was there any attempt to direct you towards trying certain things or to riding a certain way?

When he arrived with you, for 9 days was he foot perfect? From the way you worded your first post I understand the pony was ridden during those 9 days, just not in an official lesson with an instructor. What work did he do during those 9 days?
What was your daughter being instructed to do the first time he bucked?
You say he 'bucked her off'. Did you get the impression he was deliberately trying to unseat her? Did he do several bucks until she fell or was it just one?

What work has he done since that first buck? Has it happened again? Is he getting worse as time passes?

What was his previous regime? (Turnout, company, feed). Did they give you a few days' of his old feed to bring with you?

 

[Glitter's fun]

I had a vet come out for a work up yesterday and he took x-rays of hocks, stifles and back too after observing him on the straight and lunge. He said he was lame on 3 legs.

DON'T post footage of the original vetting , in case it becomes sub judice but do you have any more recent footage of him being trotted up or lunged? (There are many very knowledgeable people on this forum who might see something useful.)

 

[blitznbobs]

if It was classes as a private sale then you’ve got no chance… unless the bloods come up with something. Even on a dealer sale the odds are crappy with a 5 stage vetting … if the vet couldn’t pick up something then the dealer wouldn’t be expected to so no lying went on and was fit for purpose at the moment of sale… if there was something at the vetting and you have video footage then the best chance is suing the vet but this is going to be fairly expensive as you will need experts to view the footage and be willing to testify etc… i Think it’s vital info is what happened in the 9 days between the pony arriving and chucking your daughter off… was he out in a field , was he ridden, was he injured, what was he fed etc etc… all can change a pony’s behaviour and all could work against you.

 

[Bobthecob15]

Is this vet the same one that did the vetting? I would perhaps see if they could see the horse again as a comparison? Someone on our yard did that with a pony that they bought that changed significantly within 2 weeks of buying him… they got the vet out again and he agreed the horse was very different. Was ulcers in her case, they suspected brought on by the move as symptoms were not present at the vetting. Owners refused to have her back (via a dealer) so they kept her. After the treatment she got better but since the change in winter routine (coming in for 8hrs a day) she is worse than ever and it looks like ulcers are back

 

[samoyedman]

What shall I do??
I bought a pony (5 stage vetted) for my daughter in July this year as suitable for a nervous rider who doesn't buck, bolt rear etc (have written confirmation of this). The pony bucked my daughter off in her first official lesson about 9 days after purchase (I have video footage). Daughter's trainer said he didn't look happy and I should send him back. I thought I would give him the benefit of the doubt (trusted the dealer as she is known by so many people I know!).
To add - the dealer is acting on behalf of a private seller, although she has signed the sales receipt, I paid money direct to the private seller.
Anyway, after much stress and having another highly experienced trainer, and a physio, and my vet tell me that he is uncomfortable somewhere, I had him x-rayed yesterday which was inconclusive and needs further investigation.
I am having the vetting blood tested now (also - the previous owners are not allowing access to his vet records!).
Should I just try and return the pony who daughter loves but is being very grown up about the situation. Or spend more money diagnosing him..and treating him if this turns out to be an option.
I have already accessed a solicitor but have not yet instructed to proceed.
What would you do in this situation?

 

[Glitter's fun]

When you viewed him, did you see him caught and tacked up, or was he standing ready when you arrived? Could he have been ridden or lunged prior to your arrival?
When you attended the vetting did he look as if he'd recently been tacked up & ridden before the vet arrived?
When he bucked in the instructor's lesson had he had less of a warm up than in his more casual riding sessions over the previous 9 days?
What is his age and breeding?

 

[primrose123]

It sounds like a lovely pony. I hope everything gets sorted. (The vet sounds a little crackers to me.)

ETA: I'm still wondering what the pony's living arrangements were in his last home.

He had a mixed turnout at some point, stabled and individual paddock. I think he’s had it all. He’s a laid back dude so I don’t think those arrangements would affect him too much?

 

[primrose123]

When you viewed him, did you see him caught and tacked up, or was he standing ready when you arrived? Could he have been ridden or lunged prior to your arrival?
When you attended the vetting did he look as if he'd recently been tacked up & ridden before the vet arrived?
When he bucked in the instructor's lesson had he had less of a warm up than in his more casual riding sessions over the previous 9 days?
What is his age and breeding?

He could have been lunged/ridden before. There was no sign of it on his body though. He was in the stable untacked up.
He had hacked for 15mins to the lesson arena so was warm by then. He was not asked to work particularly hard as the instructor was just putting them through the paces to find out how he goes etc.

 

[primrose123]

DON'T post footage of the original vetting , in case it becomes sub judice but do you have any more recent footage of him being trotted up or lunged? (There are many very knowledgeable people on this forum who might see something useful.)

I don’t really want to post any footage publicly even if I’d really love you all to have a look and tell me what you think.

 

[stormox]

Is previous owner refusing to release vet records, or are they none apart from routine vaccs and worming? Ive had many horses who never needed to see a vet.

 

[primrose123]

I requested to see his records via his previous vet a few weeks ago and they informed me that they had refused the go ahead to see. So I’ve got no idea whether there is or is not anything more serious than vaccs tbh! But I’m assuming there must be something - as they do not want me to be able to see the records.

 

[Roxylola]

I can see both sides. If I'd sent a beloved outgrown pony to sales livery as I just couldn't emotionally deal with selling myself. Sold pony, bought new bigger pony - or whatever.
Then the buyer has apparently upset my treasure enough to make it buck and now 9 weeks later he's unhappy and lame ie not the delight I sold and they want the ins and outs of a ducks backside vet history that is a irrelevant and b only vaccines anyway and they sound like they're going to start wanting to return pony and ask for money back (which I used to buy a new pony) or worse keep pony and ask for money back. As a perfectly straight person I'd tell them to get lost. The purchaser bought a good sound pony which was vetted as such. If they've wrecked him since that's not my issue.
Or it could be an absolute dodge and they've had OP well and truly duped.
Either way if OP even thinks they might return I think they need to propose that asap and go from there. Right now that's not even been checked out so it's all speculation

 

[ycbm]

I don’t really want to post any footage publicly even if I’d really love you all to have a look and tell me what you think.

Happy to look privately in absolute confidentiality.

 

[ester]

I'd work him up and find out what's wrong.

If you wanted to return him that needed to be at the 9 day point re not as described not months down the line.

The initial screen on bloods isn't too costly but to determine actual drug/concentration if it flags is expensive so you'd need to be prepared for that.

Chance of a good outcome going after the vetting vet slim, and again with significant cost.

 

[Wishfilly]

The thing with the vet records etc is that actually even if he was lame, say, 2 years ago, if they never mentioned it and OP didn't ask, it's not misrepresentation.

The pony was sound enough to pass a 5 stage vetting at the point of sale.

Unless they sold him saying he'd never had lameness issues (which seems unlikely), it's irrelevant during a private sale.

I would get bloods run just in case.

But OP, to be honest, you need legal advice if you would like to pursue this. I think the bucking at this stage is irrelevant, because you were happy to keep the pony a further 2.5 months after it happened, but maybe a solicitor would disagree.

OP do you have a screenshot of the advert, and have you kept any texts with the dealer/seller?

Have you actually officially asked about sending the pony back?

ETA: for lots of reasons I think hard lunging the pony is a terrible idea, and I'd probably seek a second opinion from a different vet.

 

[onemoretime]

Yes he passed. I have just started the ball rolling for getting the blood tested.

Well done. Have you informed the seller that you want to return the pony?

 

[primrose123]

Thanks for all your advice and ideas so far. I'll keep the thread updated with any outcomes for anyone in a similar situation in the future.

 

[onemoretime]

Thanks for all your advice and ideas so far. I'll keep the thread updated with any outcomes for anyone in a similar situation in the future.

Ive been in a similar situation some years ago. The horse had been drugged up to hide serious back injuries. Its not a nice situation to be in.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I wouldn’t assume refusal to release vet history as sinister. Firstly it’s a PITA for the vet who actually has to compile records or talk to buyer. They can’t just turn up at the office and look at records. 2nd some people are extraordinarily precious and might make an issue of nothing much. 3rd it’s very easy to have separate vets for different things. I am registered with 3! So it’s very easy to hide issues with one vet and let buyers access another vet that just does routine care if you are minded to be dishonest.

I think it’s more likely that they sold in good faith, pony passed a 5 stage vet AND had clean X-rays. And they therefore now regard your stance as totally unreasonable and simply don’t want to prolong any contact with you.

I think the bloods are crucial but if someone drugs a pony for sale because they are hiding lameness, they aren’t likely to agree to X-rays. So I think you are on a hiding to nothing really. Unless you can claim against the vetting vet.

 

[paddy555]

I wouldn’t assume refusal to release vet history as sinister. Firstly it’s a PITA for the vet who actually has to compile records or talk to buyer. They can’t just turn up at the office and look at records. 2nd some people are extraordinarily precious and might make an issue of nothing much. 3rd it’s very easy to have separate vets for different things. I am registered with 3! So it’s very easy to hide issues with one vet and let buyers access another vet that just does routine care if you are minded to be dishonest.

I think it’s more likely that they sold in good faith, pony passed a 5 stage vet AND had clean X-rays. And they therefore now regard your stance as totally unreasonable and simply don’t want to prolong any contact with you.

I think the bloods are crucial but if someone drugs a pony for sale because they are hiding lameness, they aren’t likely to agree to X-rays. So I think you are on a hiding to nothing really. Unless you can claim against the vetting vet.

this, if you had wanted them the time to do something was to say you would buy subject to release of vet records. Of course with several different vets it may not have showed anything.

you say he bucked and is lame per the vet (with clean x rays) in 3 legs with no apparent reason as to why the vet thinks that. What about shoeing? presumably there was a change of farrier. Does any of that tie in with the lameness and could poor shoeing be contributing.

Are these 2 (bucking and lameness) linked?
he could have bucked simply with a new less experienced rider. I have had horses that have come and behaved perfectly for the first couple of days. Then they get a little more confident. Could that have happened?

 

[Rowreach]

I wouldn’t assume refusal to release vet history as sinister. Firstly it’s a PITA for the vet who actually has to compile records or talk to buyer. They can’t just turn up at the office and look at records. 2nd some people are extraordinarily precious and might make an issue of nothing much. 3rd it’s very easy to have separate vets for different things. I am registered with 3! So it’s very easy to hide issues with one vet and let buyers access another vet that just does routine care if you are minded to be dishonest.

I think it’s more likely that they sold in good faith, pony passed a 5 stage vet AND had clean X-rays. And they therefore now regard your stance as totally unreasonable and simply don’t want to prolong any contact with you.

I think the bloods are crucial but if someone drugs a pony for sale because they are hiding lameness, they aren’t likely to agree to X-rays. So I think you are on a hiding to nothing really. Unless you can claim against the vetting vet.

This, but I think the x-ray are recent, not part of the vetting.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

This, but I think the x-ray are recent, not part of the vetting.

Oops didn’t read carefully enough.
Thanks for correction x

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I find it odd that the op's vet has said lame on 3 legs bilateral lameness is virtually impossible to diagnose without nerve blocks I would think.

I think I would get a different vet to do a lameness assessment and go from there first.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I don’t really want to post any footage publicly even if I’d really love you all to have a look and tell me what you think.

You can upload your footage to youtube on a private link and only send that link to certain people if that would help? That way it stays private

 

[SantaVera]

Re the lameness my cob went lame about three weeks ago vet thought soft tissue injury having examined hoof for abcess and leg,gave me five days of bute. After five days horse sounder but about three tenths lame as opposed to very lame before. Today noticed a cavity in the white line and some wall broken away turns out it was an abscess after all and horse now sound. Thankfully I didn't spend a fortune on xrays or scans but just turned horse out in small paddock. Maybe your pony has something minor like this and will hopefully come right very soon

 

[Mari]

What shall I do??
I bought a pony (5 stage vetted) for my daughter in July this year as suitable for a nervous rider who doesn't buck, bolt rear etc (have written confirmation of this). The pony bucked my daughter off in her first official lesson about 9 days after purchase (I have video footage). Daughter's trainer said he didn't look happy and I should send him back. I thought I would give him the benefit of the doubt (trusted the dealer as she is known by so many people I know!).
To add - the dealer is acting on behalf of a private seller, although she has signed the sales receipt, I paid money direct to the private seller.
Anyway, after much stress and having another highly experienced trainer, and a physio, and my vet tell me that he is uncomfortable somewhere, I had him x-rayed yesterday which was inconclusive and needs further investigation.
I am having the vetting blood tested now (also - the previous owners are not allowing access to his vet records!).
Should I just try and return the pony who daughter loves but is being very grown up about the situation. Or spend more money diagnosing him..and treating him if this turns out to be an option.
I have already accessed a solicitor but have not yet instructed to proceed.
What would you do in this situation?

That’s a real red flag that previous owners won’t release vet records! Like you I bought a 7 yr old pony that, after allowing time to settle/ meet my other horse / do ground work & inhand exercises, showed to be uncomfortable When ridden. I also had all the professionals look at her & she spent a week at Leahurst. Previous owners / vets refused to release vet record. Leahurst investigations were inconclusive & vet recommended she shouldn’t be ridden. She has been retired to the field. She is now 12 & is best mates with my 25 yr old veteran.

 

[HopOnTrot]

What did the vet x-ray? Did they x-ray the back? My mare has kissing spines, 95% of the time she’s the safest horse you could ever ride, 5% she buggers off bucking. Originally treated the KS with long acting painkillers (she’s now had surgery).

Could it be something that was medicated (painkillers/steroids) and now is no longer medicated and causing an issue? KS can even be contolled with physio so if she’s gone from being worked “correctly” to working hollow with a novice rider that could cause an issue.

 

[Michen]

How would it be hassle for the vet etc to compile records!? The records will already be there- it's simply asking the vet to email them and then forwarding it on.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

That’s not how it worked when I tried to release records. Dolly had a skin condition that looker a bit like ringworm. Vets excluded that. But I couldn’t just ‘release record’ to the buyer to prove that. Test results, lab reports from the skin scrape and then punch biopsy were held in different places. Some info was paper based only and would need scanning etc

 

[Red-1]

I didn't find it easy to get vet records when I bought Rigsby. The owner was happy to release, the vets were more tricky to pin down! He had a long history and my purpose was to see how best to manage his various conditions.

I eventually pinned the vet down on the phone and he went through the records verbally.

I too would be reticent to release records under these circumstance. When a horse has been sold, having passed a vetting, and the new owners contact you months later asking for vet records, it would be plain to see where it was going. Why would you want to engage in that? If records are asked for prior to sale, then of course I would release them, as I have nothing to hide. Months later, no, that is a fishing expedition.

Personally, on a new horse that is seen as fit and healthy, I do not ask for vet records as any slight concern turns into an exclusion. I prefer to see the horse, vet the horse, insure the horse, take control of the horse and manage whatever happens.

I would run bloods. If the horse was given anything then that is clear cut and you should expect return and refund.

I am puzzled that your vet says lameness is visible on vetting video, yet no one noticed? I presume, if you did not notice, that it is a debateable lameness.

The advert says the pony does not buck etc, not that it will never do so in the future. Different rider/management can change things. I would stalk social media/ talk to people to see if that statement was inaccurate. If there is proof of the pony bucking etc previously, then I think courts would find in your favour. Other than that, it was a private sale and the pony would have to be proven as sold with inaccurate claims.

I know of two genuine horses who went totally off the rails on changing home. They were accurately described. One, in particular, was entirely suitable for a novice, as I had seen it with a succession of novices, over many years. Once in a new yard he turned into a little devil! It did square up quite quickly, but then it did that with professional handling, not with a novice. It was then, once again, suitable for any novice to ride. It was also perhaps (certainly) not 100% sound when worked too much on the school. Was OK for a day or two, but then not. We ended up using him just half an hour, three times a week on the school as that is what he could manage, but he was a little gem for that.