Boxer dogs - tail docking

My friend has a dog with NO legs..... he's called Cigarette 'cos every night she takes him out for a drag!!
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I remembered a reply from you about that you have had a tripod and that she was fully okay with only three legs.
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Since you say she was just as fast and active, why does your current dogs have four legs? After all it would mean one less leg to feel cold and frozen in and you would only need to put on three dog boots each, to keep their paws dry and warm...




For those who haven't read my replies on previous threads on the subject, I don't think the breeders of e.g. German Wirehaired Pointer should be allowed to continue to show or compete with their, due to health reasons, docked dogs.

As an example:
Let us say that someone have a working German Shepherd Dog that is excellent on tracking and catching bad people but he has really thin and sensitive skin under his paws, so they constantly becomes sore and they bleed and it is really painful for him, would you have no reservations against using that dog in breeding?
I hope you do.

If instead someone has a working German Wirehaired Pointer that is great at hunting but his tail constantly becomes sore and it bleed and it is really painful for him, to the point where it needs to be amputated due to health reasons, why should that dog be more suitable to use in breeding than the GSD in the example above?

Why are breeders of some breeds allowed to wear blinders, cut off the part that causes problem and again and again brush their problem in under the carpet?

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i have one boxer with a tail and one without and the one who has a tail is the most beautiful Boxer I've ever seen - she is just gorgeous and her tail is so much of her character. When you talk to her she just flicks the very end of it - you wouldn't even see this if she had been docked. I dont think it looks wrong at all. Why on earth should we mutilate a dog just because it looks like what we think it should? I am not against docking true working dogs who get their tails into trouble but I seriously object to docking dogs for the hell of it.



 
I agree, it is mutilation for cosmetic reasons, most dogs are not used for working. I do not agree with the claim that working dogs are at such high risk of damaging their tails. For example, foxhounds are a breed that are almost exclusively used to work (ie there are very few that are kept as pets), yet they are not docked. Yes, I have seen a few that have had to have their tails removed, but considering the number of foxhounds I have seen, this is a very small proportion indeed.

I don't feel that it can be compared to removing the tails of lambs, this is not done because some people think it looks nice.
 
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I do not agree with the claim that working dogs are at such high risk of damaging their tails. For example, foxhounds are a breed that are almost exclusively used to work (ie there are very few that are kept as pets), yet they are not docked. Yes, I have seen a few that have had to have their tails removed, but considering the number of foxhounds I have seen, this is a very small proportion indeed.


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Working dogs such as Spaniels are docked because they enter thick cover. Trust me when I say that pretty much every Undocked Spaniel that is worked properly will split it's tail, which will then continue to split and end up red raw and painful. It's not just 'cos we fancy chopping puppies tails off for kicks!
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Labs, etc (and Hounds, but I am mainly talking about Gundogs) do NOT enter the cover the same way as a Spaniel. They may work cover and you may find some that work the cover particularly hard for their breed, however a Spaniel, will go through anything, the thickest brambles, hedgerows, etc etc. Spaniels rarely go over anything. Whilst they are in the cover they hunt frantically and wag their tails hard constantly. Hence their tails being ripped and hence why people who work their dogs preferring the seconds/minutes/whatever of pain that a Pup may experiance whilst being docked, than the pain of a damaged tail, an operation and a lengthy recovery.

I can't speak for HPRs and Terriers as I have no experiance of them, but I would wager they are the same.
 
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OMG Star id swear your boxer is a clone of mine!! Even to the little bit of white on her neck!!!

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aw
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she's lovely. i just love the little white tips on their tails too.
 
I find it so hard to reply to these threads calmly. Perhaps everyone who thinks a dog looks 'better' with the end of its spine removed would like to see if it enhances their own appearance to remove the odd finger? A tail is not an ornament, it is there for a purpose.
 
You do get used to it, the docking ban is still new in the UK, my Boxers all have tails and wow do they hurt when you get whipped, but no matter what the breed if you love them for their personality then what difference does a tail make. There isn’t a week that goes by when I don’t say bloody tails as they are great for swishing a wine glass from a table! But I still love my lot. When we show it is easier with out a tail but we are getting the hang of it, and our latest show pup has a lovely high tail set and has been taught to carry it high.
 
rosiefronfelen said:
i had 2 boxers, both docked. i cant stand seeing these breeds which are used to having docked tails now having to be docked. we "tail" the lambs when they are a few weeks old, apart from the welsh, so wheres the difference? EU and Defra interference yet again!!
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The voice of sanity!!:D Quite why these busibodies interfere with what they know nothing about astounds me.Cannot abide all these ruined breeds myself ,and would`nt ever own one. Meanwhile it is perfectly ok (NOT) to castrate piglets,lambs etc without anaesthetic.Talk about double standards!!
As someone who has in fact rung lambs AND docked puppies..I can tell you the lambs suffer far far more,being more up and aware than a two day old whelp.
In the case of OES ,as a dog groomer, I can tell you that docking is essential for welfare grounds.Good Lord,if your usual owner cannot keep a DOCKED bum free of "clat" and maggot ..what hope for a tailed one?:mad:
 
but isn't it interestin East Kent, many posters claim lambs don't feel a thing or only a pinch when docked, whereas any I've done/seen done have looked unimpressed/sore for at least an hour or more and you indeed say they are definitely suffering more than a pup-implying they do suffer..and these same posters often claim pups don't notice either.
Re: aesthetic docking-if we consider it cruel, why are there such advocates of working docking saying its not actually painful or cruel to do to their puppies for the 'advantages' later on of not splitting their tails? (I won't repeat my opinion on that bit of unproven claim)
 
Here's my experience of it.

I was delighted when they introduced the ban - then I got a short haired dog with a long tail and soon changed my mind. As well as REALLY hurting when they get you round the back of the legs mid wag, it only took 11 months for my pup to split his tail to the point it wouldn't heal. 8 months later he was docked.

Long haired dogs - no problems! Spnagles have the fur to cushion their tail to some degree. Short haired dogs find it very easy to split theirs. My boy split his tail simply by wagging it and hitting the wall :( 8 months later it still hadn't healed - we even tried strapping it to his leg so he wouldn't wag and reopen the wound...

So basically - lots of rules are introduced by people with good intentions but without sufficient knowledge to provide an informed decision. Eventually this crazy rule will be revoked - it already has been for working dogs.

My boy before

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Rudder :)

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Tail off :(

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Far less traumatic to have this don't as a pup with a little local anaesthetic. My boy had to have a general and his heart stopped twice while under :(

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Now

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And he can now go through gorse bushes without me worrying about him getting ripped to pieces :)

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Another boxer fan here!

My first boxer, Spike, had a docked tail (done as a pup). Pic:

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Never had any issues with it and he was happy enough! I do miss him :(


But our current boxer, Punch, has a tail and it's very cute, despite knocking over things and whipping my legs, he's not injured it. It curls up when he's very happy, we call him "scorpion tail", lol. And I love the white bit on the end, looks like a Mr Whippy ice cream!

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So when it comes to the "tail" debate, I'm unsure which side I'm on. I've had dogs with both docked and undocked, and didn't have any issues with either.
 
Query, what woul the view be of all dogs being illegal to be docked until they are of an age to be neutered? At 6 months if your particular dog is having these massive split tail problems, get it surgically docked then? At that age it is considered reasonable to remove other organs causing potential health problems (testicles) so only makes sense that a 'necessary' operation could be done then (regardless of whether or not the dog is being neutered simultaneously)
 
SusieT said:
Query, what woul the view be of all dogs being illegal to be docked until they are of an age to be neutered? At 6 months if your particular dog is having these massive split tail problems, get it surgically docked then? At that age it is considered reasonable to remove other organs causing potential health problems (testicles) so only makes sense that a 'necessary' operation could be done then (regardless of whether or not the dog is being neutered simultaneously)
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What about for dogs not being neutered, or for dogs that have already been neutered?

I sometimes wonder why pups can't be neutered or docked like lambs with elastic bands - when I've done it the lams don't show pain at all.
 
See the end of my post-its not neccesarily when its being neutered, more that at that age it is considered appropriate for them to undergo the GA etc. so it's not neccessarily that they are being neutered a well.
The elastic band method the lambs definitely to me showed pain, clamping their tail, walking awkwardly. I have not seen them being neutered with rings, and would not want to.
 
EAST KENT said:
Quite why these busibodies interfere with what they know nothing about astounds me.Cannot abide all these ruined breeds myself ,and would`nt ever own one. Meanwhile it is perfectly ok (NOT) to castrate piglets,lambs etc without anaesthetic.Talk about double standards!!
As someone who has in fact rung lambs AND docked puppies..I can tell you the lambs suffer far far more,being more up and aware than a two day old whelp.
In the case of OES ,as a dog groomer, I can tell you that docking is essential for welfare grounds.Good Lord,if your usual owner cannot keep a DOCKED bum free of "clat" and maggot ..what hope for a tailed one?:mad:
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"ruined breeds" - by that I expect you to mean health, or skeletal malformations etc. created by breeders who should know better. I do think to claim that busybodies know nothing about dogs and dog breeding needs re-tracting unless you are putting forward substantial evidence to back up the statement. It is an unfortunate fact that in this country our meat trade is "factory" breeding and animal husbandry is not as it was when shepherds looked after their flocks! Some hill flocks are not docked. Dog breeders/owners (and I exclude puppy farmers) are expected (as I think most would agree) to pay attention to the welfare of their dogs and that includes grooming, health, hygiene, exercise, feeding and watering. Sometimes it is necessary to pass laws and make regulations to bring this to pass.
Docked OES are docked so short (bobtailed) that it interferes with their rectal muscles which atrophy causing poor faeces formation. This can also lead to urinary incontinence. An OES with a tail has far less of a problem as the tail jerks upwards as the dog defaecates. However a dog's diet also plays an important part and if the food is not home prepared it is likely that some of the proprietary brands with "animal derivatives...!!" may be not in the dog's best dietary interests. Old English with tails are no different from the undocked Bearded Collie, Komondor, Puli, Owcharka, Polish LS etc. With any such breed the onus is on the owner not to neglect the needs of their dog.
Tail set, tail length and movement are other important issues which breeders should be taking into account when selecting dogs for breeding. They are doing this successfully in Scandinavia. An example would be to breed out the Spaniel rotating movement. Field Spaniels have had a longer tail dock than their show counterparts as they need their tail in order to be seen by the shooter in the undergrowth. The problem of tail types comes with cross breeds and mongrels.
A dog tail has been referred to as a whip - similar to that used on a horse? - for those who don't enjoy the experience surely they move! A dog confined to a small space with hard objects is likely to get injury since before domestication they would live in open spaces and earth dens.
The Painted Dogs in Africa breed and hunt through horrendous thorn tree territory but it is rare to see tail injuries, although leg injuries noted.
 
Ah well,if a ram lamb gets unlucky enough to be elastrated on his tail AND his testicles he actually will lie down in pain for half an hour,frankly horrible.They must know something is up,cos when you get `em dangling between your knees to find the target they are pretty clever and sort of suck in their testicles a bit sharpish.I hated doing it!
Puppies,however ,two days old and I used to leave them in the nest sucking on Mum and just quickly snip and cauterize,Mum never even looked round ..and I am sure she would have noticed any stressy puppies .Not crel in my opinion and experience.
 
BBH said:
Yesterday I saw two beautiful boxer dogs but they both had long tails and I didn't like them
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I much prefer the boxer with a docked tail as was my mums. The owner was saying they also preferred docked tails but its illegal here now and they would have to have bought in Ireland if they wanted a docked tail puppy.

I'm wondering if its because i'm not used to seeing them like that but imo it spoilt the look of the dogs.

Anyone else got a boxer with a tail and do you get used to it.
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1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 BREATHE!!..........................................................

I will just say this, how would you feel if your mother decided at birth that you would look nicer without your ears??????

The docking issue is one thing when you are talking about health reasons due to working dogs etc.... I can respect this arguement on both sides, but just for aesthertical reasons???? Do you support great danes etc in america being ear cropped?????

I'm sorry but I feel people who want to change the way a dog looks by having something removed just because they like it, really should be looking at a different breed of dog...................... (or no dog!!!!)
 
Ah yes..OES with tails;well I groomed one of those ,it belonged to an ordinary family .They wanted it groomed out,but doing two square inches took thirty minutes ,they are big dogs and no one really wants to pay for two days of groomers time.SO ,we clipped it,my trusty Stablemate clippers are powerful enough to get under the matted fleece and keep mowing.Usually I start off just behind the ears,it was only as I started down it`s hind leg that I realised it did have a tail.That was stuck fast with matted hair and dried faeces down the back of the leg.
That coat in the average busy family is bad enough,it definitely is a welfare issue if it also has a tail.
It is exactly the same issue with sheep,fly strike is`nt pleasant,but at least good farmers do de clatt and clip around the bottom in spring.
 
ADA said:
"ruined breeds" -....... It is an unfortunate fact that in this country our meat trade is "factory" breeding and animal husbandry is not as it was when shepherds looked after their flocks! Some hill flocks are not docked........

An example would be to breed out the Spaniel rotating movement. Field Spaniels have had a longer tail dock than their show counterparts as they need their tail in order to be seen by the shooter in the undergrowth........

The Painted Dogs in Africa breed and hunt through horrendous thorn tree territory but it is rare to see tail injuries, although leg injuries noted.
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ADA, an interesting response, but there are some aspects of your letter which I would have serious problems with. If you'll allow me, I'll deal with them as I've quoted the above paragraphs.

Para 1. Shepherds still tend their flocks, and I'm one of them. The reason for not docking the hill breeds is because the ewes with a docked tail, and importantly, considering the prevailing weather conditions, will be far LESS likely to contract mastitis, one of the singularly most common reasons for the culling of otherwise useful ewes.

The other reason for "tailing" lambs, is that they will need to get a degree of finish on them. Feeding high protein concentrates will encourage a liquid bottom.

Para 2. I really don't understand what a "rotating movement" is, perhaps you could explain that one to me. The point which you've raised about Field Spaniels, would apply to all spaniels, except that it's complete nonsense. Fads, or fashions perhaps, would hope that a spaniel has a white "flash" at the end of its tail. The following shooter, would be very well aware of the dog which is before him, without the need for a white tip to the tail.

Para 3. "The Painted Dogs in Africa", do not have the same style or movement of a spaniel. They don't need a docked tail. Spaniels do.

Alec.
 
Working dogs should be docked to prevent injuries (I don't just mean working breeds, I mean spaniels that are put to work). Pet dogs, regardless of breed, should not be docked unless its a health issue. Whether the pup feels it or not when you dock it, the cruelty is the fact that you are depriving the animal of a necessary part of its anatomy just because YOU think it looks better. Boxers with tails are much nicer to look at than those without imo.

You can't compare tailing a lamb for real health reasons to docking a dog for aesthetic reasons
 
EAST KENT said:
Ah well,if a ram lamb gets unlucky enough to be elastrated on his tail AND his testicles he actually will lie down in pain for half an hour,frankly horrible.They must know something is up,cos when you get `em dangling between your knees to find the target they are pretty clever and sort of suck in their testicles a bit sharpish.I hated doing it!
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You can't have done it very well - none of the thousands of lambs I have docked/castrated have ever shown any sign of pain. It should be done by people who know what they are doing not have-a-gos :rolleyes:
 
3DE said:
You can't have done it very well - none of the thousands of lambs I have docked/castrated have ever shown any sign of pain. It should be done by people who know what they are doing not have-a-gos :rolleyes:
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oooo look who's talking.
My uncle has farmed sheep for 50 years and even he will tell you that lambs feel pain when they are banded.

Tie a rubber band around your finger and leave it on and tell me it doesn't hurt.
 
East Kent-That's the families fault not the tails.. Only get a dog you can cope with? That's not actually uncommon with rabbit and cats either, to have faeces and coat problems, rabbits can get it very bad and they don't have a tail..It's an owner problem for not picking it up.
So uh.. I'm curious, what's the difference between someone who manages to ring a lamb 'non painfully' and painfully 3DE? Exactly what wonderous technique does your uncle have as I would love to know? It's still cutting the blood supply etc. off which as we all know is painful, excrutiatingly so when we do it to ourselves? There really isn't much variation you can do either.. It's ring on.. and uh..that's it really?
 
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