Brain picking time please! Aiding and improving the canter

Casey76

Casey76

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For those who aren’t familiar I’ll include a bit of background: my mare, Tartine, is 11 years old. I’ve owned her for 5 years. At the time I tried her, she struggled to get a canter transition in the (very deep) pea gravel school, and I put this down to her been green and unschooled. Over the next 3 years we *really* struggled with the canter, particularly canter right, and striking off on the correct leg. Almost two years ago, T was diagnosed with PSSM 1 after undergoing tests for lack of performance. Since then we have continued to work on the canter, and we have good periods and bad periods.

Unfortunately due the PSSM, her work had been very hit and miss, and she she tends not to do very much during winter as it is so cold, which makes her muscles very, very slow to warm up. She gets tailored treatment from a physio at least once per month, which may include osteopathy, stretching, massage therapy, shiatsu and TCM/moxa.

At the moment she is very supple from poll to tail, there are no problems with SI, LY, haunches in/out in straight lines and circles, both with true bend and counter bend. She hates half pass with a passion and refuses to go forward 🙄.

Canter is a disaster, on both reins the inside hind leg is lazy, with no push, jump or reach, and swaps between being disunited (trotting at the back) and bunny hopping. When working in an open frame in a light seat the canter is better, but not great, and she needs a lot of encouragement to go forward.

I know a lot of this is due to the myopathy, but a lot of it is also ongoing issues, as she has never used her hind end properly in canter. 5 years I’ve been working on this issue, and only very occasionally have I ever felt her actually carry me correctly in a forward canter.

I have a big school to work in (60x40), which is great, as she absolutely can’t cope with circles smaller than 15-20m. Canter spirals are, frankly, terrifying.

We now have the canter strike off just about sorted out, and she will normally transition on the right leg about 90% of the time... if I set things up properly, making sure she is properly balanced and ask at the right time 😉

I’m actually off games until the beginning of Aug, due to a busted knee, so my instructor has been riding T once a week just to make sure she is working correctly (a couple of times a week, T is hacking with a couple of pre-teen girls), which has given me an opportunity to observe her for the first time in years... it’s not good, and I’m feeling pretty despondent. Theoretically, summer time should be the best time to do decent work, and normally we come on leaps and bounds, but this year it’s just 💩

Tl;dr: mare with muscle myopathy is struggling with canter; we are looking for any ideas on improving hind leg strength and quickness.

Thanks for getting this far! 🍰 and 🥂 for you!
 
A few jumbled thoughts that I hope come across as intended (good intentions) because I know how much you care for and agonise over your horses, which is admirable.

In no particular order:
The PSSM is obviously highly likely to be the primary / biggest factor in this, so with that in mind is there anything you can tweak in the diet?
It could be easy to overlook secondary pain issues, which is not out of the question after years/months of working with sore muscles - hocks and sacro are both prime candidates.
In the nicest way, T is not really built/type to be the most supple & athletic in the dressage department so there might be an element of square peg & round hole.

Assuming physical side of things under control then it boils down to really good riding (expensive if bringing someone in). Some water treadmill work under veterinary/Physio supervision may also be beneficial.

Or you just take the pressure off, accept them for what they are and scale back expectations?
 
I would endorse all of ihw's comments and have a couple to add, I don't think you hack very much and wonder if the lack of hacking over the years may have contributed to her difficulties, going over a variety of surfaces at all paces can work wonders.

I am not sure if poles are used as part of the schooling process in France but if they are not routinely used they would be the single most helpful aid to strengthen and activate hindlegs, and everywhere else, in my experience, I use them for so many reasons in many different ways and rarely fail to get great improvement over a period of time if used consistently.
 
Personally, I'd start by just working on strength a bit by doing some canter work on straight lines out and about if possible, just onward light seat type stuff.
In the school transition, just a few good strides back to trot and transition up to canter again. Will she do walk to canter at all? Might help create a bit of push
 
ihatework said:
A few jumbled thoughts that I hope come across as intended (good intentions) because I know how much you care for and agonise over your horses, which is admirable.

In no particular order:
The PSSM is obviously highly likely to be the primary / biggest factor in this, so with that in mind is there anything you can tweak in the diet?
It could be easy to overlook secondary pain issues, which is not out of the question after years/months of working with sore muscles - hocks and sacro are both prime candidates.
In the nicest way, T is not really built/type to be the most supple & athletic in the dressage department so there might be an element of square peg & round hole.

Assuming physical side of things under control then it boils down to really good riding (expensive if bringing someone in). Some water treadmill work under veterinary/Physio supervision may also be beneficial.

Or you just take the pressure off, accept them for what they are and scale back expectations?
Click to expand...

Agree with this. Having had a horse who did the disuniting, bunny hopping canter thing and reluctance to go forward-we investigated and found hock issues and PSD. Obviously PSSM plays a big part in yours, but I do wonder whether there could be something else at play here.

Inhand polework can really help build up strength behind. Raised poles are fantastic and can be done Inhand or on long Reins aswell as obviously ridden.
 
Hocks with mine. Canter much better on bute trial even when muscle enzymes higher than desirable.

General view of various vets, physios, osteos is that tight muscles have contributed to arthritic changes. Even when enzymes are low and muscles soft her range of movement - esp shoulders - isn't great. Muscle memory maybe - haven't really got any useful answers so far. It's difficult knowing how far to push it be honest.
 
My mare had no canter at All, she would bunny hop in the transition and rarely get the correct lead (under saddle and on the lunge)
With a fantastic instructor last year We spent maybe 6 months getting walk and trot correct, straight and supple. Didn't even touch canter. I mostly rode on a hilly bit of field as we have no school although I do hire one on occasion. When we introduced canter it was straight lines out hacking and 2 or 3 strides was enough. We can now canter a 20m circle on the correct lead on an incline. It's not always pretty or perfect but compared to just over a year ago it's astonishing.
My point here being are the absolute basics working as they should? We've improved the canter phenomenally without actually really doing alot of canter work and I wonder if that might be something to consider.
 
Thank you everyone for your time and replies, I’ll try to address everything individually :)

ihatework said:
A few jumbled thoughts that I hope come across as intended (good intentions) because I know how much you care for and agonise over your horses, which is admirable.

In no particular order:
The PSSM is obviously highly likely to be the primary / biggest factor in this, so with that in mind is there anything you can tweak in the diet?

at the moment T is getting no feed. she has �� pasture for 12 hours then approx 3kg of hay for during the day he day while she’s in (this is adequate, as she always leaves a little bit). Supplements or not, doesn’t seem to make any difference.

It could be easy to overlook secondary pain issues, which is not out of the question after years/months of working with sore muscles - hocks and sacro are both prime candidates.

yes, this could be as issue. Her hocks were xrayed completely clear at purchase, but obviously that was 5 years ago. When she underwent her initial work up 2 years ago, the vet didn’t think there was anything wrong (or wrong enough to warrant re-X-ray) with her hocks after flexion tests. Regarding the SI, that is going to be very difficult to get checked as there is only one scintigraphy centre in the region, which is by Zürich in Switzerland, and to be frank, I don’t have the 2000euros it would cost to get it done :/. But she does have her SI assessed by her physio every month, and she tells me that T’s issues are now mainly muscular rather than skeletal.


In the nicest way, T is not really built/type to be the most supple & athletic in the dressage department so there might be an element of square peg & round hole.

Well you could also say the same for all Fell and Dales ;), if we have reached out limit where it comes to lateral work, fair enough, but as an ungaited breed, she should be able to canter a true three beat canter without too many issues

Assuming physical side of things under control then it boils down to really good riding (expensive if bringing someone in). Some water treadmill work under veterinary/Physio supervision may also be beneficial.

this would be great! But my physios rehab centre is 2.5-3 hours away, and T doesn’t travel very well. However it is something I could explore, if I could send her for a month intensive treatment (I’d rather spend 2000 euro on that than for a scintigraphy tbh)

Or you just take the pressure off, accept them for what they are and scale back expectations?
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does she canter well at liberty?

my welsh had a shocking canter to begin with but she cantered round the field doing lovely flying changes, up and down hill... so it was clearly a training issue with her. Just wondering what T's canter is like when she's just doing her own thing?
 
@be positive
be positive said:
I would endorse all of ihw's comments and have a couple to add, I don't think you hack very much and wonder if the lack of hacking over the years may have contributed to her difficulties, going over a variety of surfaces at all paces can work wonders.

ouch... that stings! But it could true. I have a lot of issues hacking T, as she really takes confidence from her rider, and I have very little confidence, so we tend to wind each other up. Having said that, T has been hacking fairly regularly over the past 6 months, and up to three times a week since I’ve hurt my knee.

I am not sure if poles are used as part of the schooling process in France but if they are not routinely used they would be the single most helpful aid to strengthen and activate hindlegs, and everywhere else, in my experience, I use them for so many reasons in many different ways and rarely fail to get great improvement over a period of time if used consistently.

Do you have any books you can recommend? I still have to be very careful walking on the sand surface, so I’m not sure when I’ll be up to lunging again, but it would be good to have an idea of what I can try once my knee is a bit stronger :)
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@roxylola
Roxylola said:
Personally, I'd start by just working on strength a bit by doing some canter work on straight lines out and about if possible, just onward light seat type stuff.
In the school transition, just a few good strides back to trot and transition up to canter again. Will she do walk to canter at all? Might help create a bit of push

she does do walk to canter, but she doesn’t like it and it often leads to arguments.Lots of transitions in quick succession make her really frustrated and she’ll start to strop. I have to deal issues with the transitions now, she’ll go up from my seat, and down on a breath or vocal command
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SEL said:
Hocks with mine. Canter much better on bute trial even when muscle enzymes higher than desirable.

General view of various vets, physios, osteos is that tight muscles have contributed to arthritic changes. Even when enzymes are low and muscles soft her range of movement - esp shoulders - isn't great. Muscle memory maybe - haven't really got any useful answers so far. It's difficult knowing how far to push it be honest.
Click to expand...

She’s actually very supple skeletally. So far the only thing which has made a huge impact is when she had a G5 deep tissue percussive massage, unfortunately the qualified therapist moved away, and the only other person in the region who has one hasn’t done more than a weekend course, and her other skills as an osteopath aren’t that hot compared to the others in the area.

T is getting elector therapy more and more often, but I don’t think it actually touches the deep gluteal muscles :/
 
milliepops said:
does she canter well at liberty?

my welsh had a shocking canter to begin with but she cantered round the field doing lovely flying changes, up and down hill... so it was clearly a training issue with her. Just wondering what T's canter is like when she's just doing her own thing?
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She does canter in the field, but she tends to charge around chasing B. Our fields aren’t really conducive to having a really good run as they are so small :/

I’m told that out hacking she loves a canter, and is very fast and loves to race... half of the time I’m like. ‘Oh good, I’m pleased everyone is having a great time’ the other half I’m ‘fabulous... all she’s learning is to go as fast as she pleases’. But because I’m never there I can’t see *how* she is cantering.

Earlier this year, I thought we were making real progress, and the canter was actually feeling good, and easy to sit and easy to stay with (for a change); then she has a couple of dodgy weeks, then I had my accident. A couple of weeks after that one of the girls borrowed her to do a little bit jumping, and the canter looked quite bad, the jumping was awful, and she was crippled for days afterwards. She had two physio treatments fairly close together, and my instructor started riding once a week to keep her schooling up, and it was the first time I’ve seen her being worked properly for years. The walk and trot work is really good, though she can be lazy with the LY in trot; the canter work has been awful, which is what has prompted this thread really.

I’m going to talk to my physio to see if she thinks the water treadmill would be of any benefit. I’d have to have a look at my finances to see how long I could afford to send her away for, but it might be an option.
 
Just throwing stuff out there...

When I had a much better rider than me school my horse for a week last year the constant insistence on getting her to work from behind actually knackered her hamstrings. My trimmer was the first to spot there was an issue. With only me on her (rides like a cowboy........) her hamstrings are fine. I think if the 'proper' riding had been for 10 mins a session and mixed up with more relaxed work then it wouldn't have been an issue, but she just wasn't conditioned to be ridden like that for 10 days solidly. So I suppose I'm just checking that your instructor is riding for the horse and isn't niggling anything by insisting on Tartine coming up and through behind.

What she can tolerate in the two-time beat of a trot she might struggle with canter where the muscles have to work harder, esp if she's being asked to hold herself together.

Interesting that it went wrong after a bit of jumping. I know FionnWinnie doesn't post on here any more, but she rehomed her little PSSM cob when she stopped wanting to jump. There are PSSM horses that jump, but I wonder whether its just too much of a stretch for compromised muscles. Don't know!
 
OP, you obviously love this mare and try hard with her, but it's evident that she's not cut out to do the school work that you like to do with her. This is likely to be due at least in part to her physical issues.

I fully agree with ihw's post, particularly the last sentence. Enjoy her for what she is, rather than try to push her to do what she can't.

I have a mare who sailed through a 5 stage vetting from a top referral practice when I bought her 2 years ago. She has since been diagnosed with bilateral hock arthritis, PPID and PSSM. My plans to school her to and compete her to Medium level have had to be abandoned. She is re routed to light schooling and hacking (she's an excellent hack).
 
Ok, personally I see no point upsetting her when she's already struggling, so bin the frequent transitions suggestion although I would keep any canter in an arena brief still, a long side or a large circle at a time and try and get out doing some straight lines and hills if you can
 
Ok, after trying for hours to upload videos, I’ve finally managed to get a couple uploaded with adequate resolution - who knew that was so difficult these days?

[video=youtube_share;b8ZzMDeEk_s]https://youtu.be/b8ZzMDeEk_s[/video]

[video=youtube_share;CSmwasN-iJg]https://youtu.be/CSmwasN-iJg[/video]
 
see, without all the baggage and history, that looks like a canter that can be improved. it looks like a not-uncommon fairly weak canter that hasn't got a clear 3 beat rhythm and my instinct on riding horses like that is not to keep pulling them up, but to ride really forward in quite an open way until they find their balance and develop some strength. something like developing some canter poles may also be helpful. What happens if a rider just lets her travel or asks her to really *go* rather than managing her into an outline etc?
 
If the horse were 4 then yes I’d agree with MP.
But as it is you have big issues imo and if the horse were mine I’d give her a pat and say let’s go happy hacking. Sorry.
 
milliepops said:
see, without all the baggage and history, that looks like a canter that can be improved. it looks like a not-uncommon fairly weak canter that hasn't got a clear 3 beat rhythm and my instinct on riding horses like that is not to keep pulling them up, but to ride really forward in quite an open way until they find their balance and develop some strength. something like developing some canter poles may also be helpful. What happens if a rider just lets her travel or asks her to really *go* rather than managing her into an outline etc?
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Completely agree. I’d be quite interested to see what the canter is like with rider in light/half seat, contact largely given away and horse allowing to travel a bit.
 
I am sorry, but I don't think your horse looks comfortable at all.

I would investigate this discomfort before doing more work.

I don't think this is just a schooling issue.
 
I agree that it looks very uncomfortable. If that horse came into me for schooling and a physio said all was ok, I'd do no work in a school but get it out hacking to try and build the balance and strength in the hind. If i was canter it would be in a light seat, up a slight slope not caring where the head was at. If the horse still struggled after that i'd advise the owner to happy hack it.

Personally (and this is just my view) you want a horse to be happy in its job and if dressage is the job you want that horse to do, then I can't see it being a happy athlete at all. Its like fitting a round block into a square hole.
 
Red-1 said:
I am sorry, but I don't think your horse looks comfortable at all.

I would investigate this discomfort before doing more work.

I don't think this is just a schooling issue.
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Exactly what I thought! It made for uncomfortable viewing tbh. I was surprised that your instructor kept pushing her.

ETA, I wouldn't immediately think of a horse that dishes like T does as a dressage horse.
 
I can totally understand your thinking of 'well maybe its just weak and balanced' but there is a different between that and physical issues.

I own two horses that really struggled to canter, one was a cart horse, and the other one was a sulkie racer. Both had no balance, no idea what to do with their legs and both are built to have massive physical disadvantages to even being able to canter. Neither of them ever cantered like that, even at their weakest.

For example, This video (apologies in advance this is awful riding and a **** video!) but it shows a horse that has never cantered (she was a sulkie racer). She is completely green, has no idea what to do with her legs and has never really cantered. Usually I wouldn't attempt jumping a horse like this, but this one actually found it less stressful to jump and she would naturally offer a canter towards a jump, whereas in arena flatwork schooling she found it too stressful. The jumps kind of distract her and she enjoys them. Its a bad canter, unbalanced and awful, but she is still forward and happy to offer it when she can. She struggles, but it's not a miserable tail swishing struggle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Az1faRHyI&t=2s
 
I agree with IHW that it's worth doing a check for anything else obvious - maybe a Bute trial and a few x rays (i have actually got into the habit of x raying the hocks and feet on mine every year just as a sanity check because I worry the muscular issues will cause other damage eventually). And after that I agree with MP. She needs to go forwards and find a rhythm first and needs to work out that canter doesn't have to be stressful. I would also be careful with the lateral work - if she's anything like mine then she will find it easier to move her limbs laterally than to push forwards with them, so you really have to get them straight and pushing forwards before asking for lateral movement. Better to get two strides of proper, straight shoulder in than have them bent round without any engagement.

And muscular fitness really is key...I find it hard to get the required level in the school and really need hacking to get it, but I wouldn't say that it's necessarily the only way. But I did find it really useful working mine like I was training an endurance horse - so with the trot starting off with a small but balanced trot and then gradually increasing the stride length as they get fitter. I hope you don't take this the wrong way but the trot in the video isn't going to be helping her much at the moment. It's just a bit flat and rushed to do much with

Don't know if any of those ramblings help, but hopefully something of use
 
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Red-1 said:
I am sorry, but I don't think your horse looks comfortable at all.

I would investigate this discomfort before doing more work.

I don't think this is just a schooling issue.
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I have to agree. She looks very uncomfortable and the tail swishing is a sure sign of tension. I think given her issues that you have had ones the last few years it might be time to call it a day and just enjoy her for what she can give you.

You say that you don't like hacking as you have lack of confidenc, why not work on that? Start going out with people to get your confidence back up and if you still want to train her you can work on schooling whilst out hacking.

Schooling doesn't have to limited to the school! 😊
 
paddi22 said:
I agree that it looks very uncomfortable. If that horse came into me for schooling and a physio said all was ok, I'd do no work in a school but get it out hacking to try and build the balance and strength in the hind. If i was canter it would be in a light seat, up a slight slope not caring where the head was at. If the horse still struggled after that i'd advise the owner to happy hack it.

Personally (and this is just my view) you want a horse to be happy in its job and if dressage is the job you want that horse to do, then I can't see it being a happy athlete at all. Its like fitting a round block into a square hole.
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This ^^^
 
paddi22 said:
I agree that it looks very uncomfortable. If that horse came into me for schooling and a physio said all was ok, I'd do no work in a school but get it out hacking to try and build the balance and strength in the hind. If i was canter it would be in a light seat, up a slight slope not caring where the head was at. If the horse still struggled after that i'd advise the owner to happy hack it.

Personally (and this is just my view) you want a horse to be happy in its job and if dressage is the job you want that horse to do, then I can't see it being a happy athlete at all. Its like fitting a round block into a square hole.
Click to expand...

The first paragraph I agree with without caveat. I would certainly want to attempt any canter work on straight lines, off its back, and moving forward without constraint on the head. That assumes that the horse is sound and capable, of course. I would give the horse time to develop balance, strength and muscle before bringing her back into the school.

The second paragraph... I'm all for teaching a pig to sing - I do think that all horses can do dressage to a greater or lesser degree, and it's fine to play around with a less than ideal dressage horse up to its limits. That said, the horse has to be capable of what you're asking - mentally and physically - and if a mature horse is struggling at this point, having been given every chance to succeed, you have to accept what the horse is telling you. Every horse has its limit.
 
paddi22 said:
I can totally understand your thinking of 'well maybe its just weak and balanced' but there is a different between that and physical issues.

I own two horses that really struggled to canter, one was a cart horse, and the other one was a sulkie racer. Both had no balance, no idea what to do with their legs and both are built to have massive physical disadvantages to even being able to canter. Neither of them ever cantered like that, even at their weakest.

For example, This video (apologies in advance this is awful riding and a **** video!) but it shows a horse that has never cantered (she was a sulkie racer). She is completely green, has no idea what to do with her legs and has never really cantered. Usually I wouldn't attempt jumping a horse like this, but this one actually found it less stressful to jump and she would naturally offer a canter towards a jump, whereas in arena flatwork schooling she found it too stressful. The jumps kind of distract her and she enjoys them. Its a bad canter, unbalanced and awful, but she is still forward and happy to offer it when she can. She struggles, but it's not a miserable tail swishing struggle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Az1faRHyI&t=2s
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That's like comparing chalk and cheese though?? And PSSM is a physical issue - its muscles that hurt, not just weak and unbalanced. It's just that exercise provides considerable physical therapy if you find the right way to condition them.

And then of course you lay on top of that the psychological impact of having muscles that tense strangely and hurt their entire lives, long before a human got on their back and tried to get them to use themselves properly. But then again, imagine the feel good factor a horse like that gets from discovering they are able to do something, and from starting to feel strong and powerful. My horse used to canter like that, but these days he bounces out to the school every morning and genuinely loves his work (more than most horses I've trained), and he's taught me a huge amount about nuances of horse psychology and physiology when it comes to training them.

T's age may be against her, but I have the living breathing proof in my barn that that physical condition is not the end of the world in itself.
 
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