Break failure in canter

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The coblet is so much stronger and more supple now and I'm starting to introduce canter again.
We get the transition, his head goes down and he goes and I don't stand a hope in h*ll of stopping or turning him. I ride him in a Pelham.

I know transitions etc are good for their balance in canter but I can't do traditions if I can't slow him down! He can't be lunged or hacked out.

Any ideas?
 
When you say you can't turn him what do you mean? Does he just guide himself around the edge of the school?

My advice would be to work him in canter until he settles but that's not really possible if you have no control over his direction of travel of body positioning. And if that's really the case then I would say that it's likely he's not really balanced enough to be cantering yet
 
You say you are riding in a pelham, is that with two reins or roundings? if you are using roundings then I suspect he is uncomfortable, puts his head down to avoid the discomfort or because the rein pressure is causing it and the limited movement is not allowing you to regain control, it would not be my first choice of bit to reschool something even using two reins it is a bit of a blunt instrument and if it is jointed the more contact you take the less influence the curb chain will have in encouraging him to relax his jaw.
I would look at changing to something else, work on really gaining control, suppleness and responsiveness in walk and trot before trying short canters on a 15m circle, possibly from walk if he is really inclined to tank off as he will be more balanced and not so on his forehand when he goes into it.
 
When you say you can't turn him what do you mean? Does he just guide himself around the edge of the school?

My advice would be to work him in canter until he settles but that's not really possible if you have no control over his direction of travel of body positioning. And if that's really the case then I would say that it's likely he's not really balanced enough to be cantering yet
He does wall of death until he sees something that spookes him then goes sideways very quickly
 
You say you are riding in a pelham, is that with two reins or roundings? if you are using roundings then I suspect he is uncomfortable, puts his head down to avoid the discomfort or because the rein pressure is causing it and the limited movement is not allowing you to regain control, it would not be my first choice of bit to reschool something even using two reins it is a bit of a blunt instrument and if it is jointed the more contact you take the less influence the curb chain will have in encouraging him to relax his jaw.
I would look at changing to something else, work on really gaining control, suppleness and responsiveness in walk and trot before trying short canters on a 15m circle, possibly from walk if he is really inclined to tank off as he will be more balanced and not so on his forehand when he goes into it.
2 reins, it's a rubber straight bar, ive tried softer bits and he was worse and definitely don't want anything stronger! I've tried the walk to canter but he doesn't get it.
He can leg yield, shoulder in etc now rather than being a motorbike so is much stronger and balanced, works over his back from behind now instead of hollowing his back and running with his head in the air. I'd like his walk more active but other than that I'm very happy with his walk and trot.

I do wonder if it's almost he's done it once, realised I'm not strong enough to do anything about it so keeps doing it... The first time he did it was the day I tried him in the snaffle as he'd been being so good.
 
Is he pulling you forwards out of the saddle when he drops his head? Instead of thinking canter-forward, sit deep in saddle, in a slow but active working trot on a close contact and think of almost leaning backwards/lower leg forwards, think of being very upright yourself, head up, face up, all your weight centred in your core into the saddle, then ask him to transition UP into canter rather than forwards into canter, and ask for just 4-5 strides of UP canter with you remaining up, straight, deep, tall in the saddle, weight back, then back to a nice controlled trot. Tell him he's a good boy. Repeat.
 
You cannot get much softer than a rubber straight bar, if ridden on the top rein and with a correctly fitted curb chain it should be fairly suitable and give you enough to control him, you need to be able to use the reins independently and alter the way you use them quickly enough to enable you to stay in control, if he pulls down the top rein should help lift him up, then bring the bottom rein into play to get him to soften, if done on a circle you should be able to push on with your leg and keep him turning so you do not go round doing a wall of death.

Sitting very deep can help but sometimes getting off the back and staying in a secure light seat can help even more as they can lift their back more easily and the rider is not forcing themselves deeper into a position that a green horse is not used to therefore making the horse brace against the weight, every horse is different and being flexible, trying various methods to see what helps and then being consistent until the horse is established is the way I tend to work with them all.
 
Is he pulling you forwards out of the saddle when he drops his head? Instead of thinking canter-forward, sit deep in saddle, in a slow but active working trot on a close contact and think of almost leaning backwards/lower leg forwards, think of being very upright yourself, head up, face up, all your weight centred in your core into the saddle, then ask him to transition UP into canter rather than forwards into canter, and ask for just 4-5 strides of UP canter with you remaining up, straight, deep, tall in the saddle, weight back, then back to a nice controlled trot. Tell him he's a good boy. Repeat.
He's a bucker/bronker if he's having a strop so I naturally sit with my shoulders back slightly which I think is how some days I've managed to stay on!

I'll try the picking him into canter a bit more than the forward into canter and see how we go
 
Has the possibility that this temperamental (from your earlier thread) bucking, broncing, bolting (on hacks, semi bolting in the arena) horse who doesn't like a change of rider is in pain been ruled out?

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Has the possibility that this temperamental (from your earlier thread) bucking, broncing, bolting (on hacks, semi bolting in the arena) horse who doesn't like a change of rider is in pain been ruled out?

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Yes, saddle, back etc checked and all good. The hack bolting is lack of experience and terrified of the outside world. The bucking etc is if he doesn't fancy doing something and isn't often, normally when the spring grass comes through or he doesn't want to go into spooky corner and is his reaction if he doesn't want to do something on the ground as well so I'm confident it's not pain causing it. We can literally be walking/trotting around the school he gets to F (it's always F) and just plants/bronks sideways/ on a bad day he's reared, but it's always that corner, never anywhere else.
 
I don't know how to fix that though without being able to stop or turn. My only other thought was to try picking up canter out of a leg yield

You don't need to stop but you do need to keep turning and not let him get on a straightline, pick up canter on a circle and stay on it, use your weight, your reins, your legs correctly and that will give him a chance to find his balance, if you are not confident, cannot adjust your weight, change how you use the reins or lack balance yourself he will not be able to find his own balance and it may be best to either leave it a bit longer or find a way to work through it with groundwork so he can learn how to be better balanced, gain his own confidence and it will translate to a degree to his ridden work.

He sounds rather opinionated, if pain has been ruled out it is time to stop allowing him to dictate what he does and doesn't like doing and be tougher, if your instructor will not ride him maybe she could help deal with the lunging issues or help you get out and about a bit more so he can see the outside world is safe.
 
How has the back been checked? Only x rays can check a back fully.

It's not uncommon for horses in pain to only behave badly in certain places, or only when they are under extra stress like at a competition. I had one who only blew up at some letters in arenas and it took a while to realise he had kissing spines.

If this horse was mine I would cut all hard food out of his diet if he is on any and see if that changed his behaviour and possibly test a PSSM friendly diet. Then I would test him with a bute trial (often doesn't work for back issues) and possibly follow up with xrays of the neck and back, and have flexions done on the hocks.

But he isn't mine, or yours either. If the owners or your insurance won't pay for investigations, and I haven't misunderstood the level of issues this loan horse has, then I would send him back before you or someone else gets hurt.

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You don't need to stop but you do need to keep turning and not let him get on a straightline, pick up canter on a circle and stay on it, use your weight, your reins, your legs correctly and that will give him a chance to find his balance, if you are not confident, cannot adjust your weight, change how you use the reins or lack balance yourself he will not be able to find his own balance and it may be best to either leave it a bit longer or find a way to work through it with groundwork so he can learn how to be better balanced, gain his own confidence and it will translate to a degree to his ridden work.

He sounds rather opinionated, if pain has been ruled out it is time to stop allowing him to dictate what he does and doesn't like doing and be tougher, if your instructor will not ride him maybe she could help deal with the lunging issues or help you get out and about a bit more so he can see the outside world is safe.
He's very opinionated, I am the "tough one" . With his owners he knows he can get away with it so is worse. He does th steps that Richard maxwell describes:
1. Why
2. Double why
3. No
4. Eff off
5. Okay then.. Guess we do it your way

It's been a slow process but it's getting there. We didn't get on at first cause he didn't like the fact I wouldn't compromise with him and do it his way. If I say we are going past f, we are going past f. If his oldrider said we are going past f, he said no, she said ok we will just school down the other end.
 
How has the back been checked? Only x rays can check a back fully.

It's not uncommon for horses in pain to only behave badly in certain places, or only when they are under extra stress like at a competition. I had one who only blew up at some letters in arenas and it took a while to realise he had kissing spines.

If this horse was mine I would cut all hard food out of his diet if he is on any and see if that changed his behaviour and possibly test a PSSM friendly diet. Then I would test him with a bute trial (often doesn't work for back issues) and possibly follow up with xrays of the neck and back, and have flexions done on the hocks.

But he isn't mine, or yours either. If the owners or your insurance won't pay for investigations, and I haven't misunderstood the level of issues this loan horse has, then I would send him back before you or someone else gets hurt.

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He isn't that bad, apart from the cantering it is rare he puts a hoof wrong, the worst of the bucking etc was when I first started riding him and he didn't like that I said no and meant it
 
Make sure you aren't holding your inside rein too strongly. Some tank off if you block their inside shoulder.

To see if it's a balance thing you could just do a few strides of canter before transitioning to trot. He may be getting strung out in the canter and then losing his balance.

If he just wants to get strong and tank off I'd put him on a circle. He will have to slow down to stay balanced. When he is quiet then go straight. Circle again if he stops listening. It's easier than fighting with them.
 
If you're confident there's no other issues then would put on a 20m circle in an active, balanced but not rushing / on the forehand trot (ie NOT leaning on your hands). Leg yield down to the smallest circle you can manage without breaking the rhythm, back out in a balanced manner (not just horse teleporting sideways... a sort of spiral shape rather than an egg). When this is achievable easily ask for canter as / just before your circle size becomes roughly the original 20m, stay on circle exactly as you were managing to do in trot. After a few strides ask for trot. Try to maintain balance throughout. If the horse tries to rush into canter stop asking, rebalance & ask again. (you're not going to get a good quality of canter if the horse just runs into it) If you think the horse is likely to lean then perhaps try to ask for the downwards transition more with your seat. Gradually increase no of canter strides & play about with going large when satisfied you have control on a circle (& remember you can start a circle literally anywhere of any size if required for reasons of regaining some brakes... you don't need to wait until you get to a letter or to one end of the school)

I'm not an expert, just something that helped me with a horse who used to rush into canter & then get a bit wild & unbalanced. It is actually quite a difficult exercise to do correctly if the horse isn't listening (or at least I found it flipping hard!) or is hanging on the inside rein / is not straight in some way & it's most helpful if the horse is carrying themselves properly but in theory you're giving the horse the best chance of striking off correctly & by doing it on a circle rather than going large (& trying to bring them back before they lose balance) you're not giving them as much room to piss off. You could also do it without the spiral (which I'm sure has a lovely technical dressage name that I totally don't know!) but I found that it assisted with getting a really nice transition to canter to start with rather than just sort of falling into it. I will add that in the end the horse I'm referring to did turn out to have a fair few back issues diagnosed several years down the line that I suspect were niggling to some degree & probably were why he found certain things so hard / tried to travel crooked (I think that at the time encouraging him to be straighter & move more correctly helped him overall but wasn't enough to fix things on its own)
 
There are many reasons for this behaviour, but I would need to see a video before being able to make an educated guess as to how to proceed.

You say he does walk and trot including leg yield and shoulder in, but if he is so rude in canter I would suspect he does not really perform those movements with a soft and relaxed jaw.

Rushing is usually either loss of balance, lack of understanding, pain or too much energy (as in too much feed). Pain could be from saddle, bridle, shoe inbalance, joint pain, soft tissue injury. Lack of understanding could be through doing what he has always done, not knowing to relax the jaw when a contact is taken, not knowing how to make the pain stop, or a number of other things, such as the rider bracing against the horse.

It is rare for a horse to work well in walk and trot, including through lateral work and direct transitions, and not be able to canter at least a few strides in a reasonable canter.

I think a video would be a good idea.
 
I have helped two horses with canter issues caused by previous riders. The first was used to being socked in the mouth on the transition, then randomly so through the canter, as the rider had been unbalanced. I asked for canter, with loose reins in a large area, let her shoot off, waited until she settled, back to trot then ask again. Over and over until she stopped shooting off and panicking.

The second shot forwards the first time I ever asked for canter, into a wall of death that was so panicked that stopping or steering was not an option. We weren’t crashing, or falling over, so I just sat quietly, figuring she’d get tired eventually. She did - after about 10min solid canter. So we came back to trot and I asked for canter again. This time she was tired - no wall of death! We did a fair few canter transitions until she was behaving nicely, then stopped. She never did it again. If there’s no physical issue, they get tired eventually, then you ask for MORE canter than they wanted to do, and now you have the control. Get them tired, and listening.
 
The coblet is so much stronger and more supple now and I'm starting to introduce canter again.
We get the transition, his head goes down and he goes and I don't stand a hope in h*ll of stopping or turning him. I ride him in a Pelham.

I know transitions etc are good for their balance in canter but I can't do traditions if I can't slow him down! He can't be lunged or hacked out.

Any ideas?
Personally I'd get him checked over, saddle, back and teeth as he could be running from pain. There's no point going in a stronger and stronger bit.
Then if that's all okay maybe get an instructor who can show you some exercises to slow him down.

You might try borrowing a Neue Scule bit from the bit bank. They do a tranz angled lozenge pelham and they do a narrower mouthpiece, if his mouthpiece is too thick for his tongue (which it could well be if he is a cob) then having too thick a mouthpiece will be counter productive.
 
I agree with the posters saying it's worth getting a full check over if it's as dramatic as it sounds, rather than just a green horse losing balance, and yes a video would be helpful!

I would not think about "slowing down" particularly, as Red said rushing is usually caused by something else so just trying to slow down doesn't address the root cause and just makes everyone more frustrated. Sometimes a rushing horse has found the transition difficult, in which case short canters with repetition of the transitions can help, and sometimes they don't believe they can balance when IN canter in which case longer canters where they just get the chance to work it all out are more useful.

there are so many variables, the best thing is to stop the guesswork and get someone out to help you in person :)
 
Is this in the school? If he’s putting his head down it sounds like a balance problem. If he’s working correctly then he should be balanced enough to quietly have enough impulsion in the trot to pop in to canter smoothly. Putting the head down would indicate he’s heavy on the shoulder and not really lifting it and working through correctly.
 
if he's got no physical issues, I'd start him cantering on a 10 m circle in the corner of the school, and (as long as its not inclined to jump the fence) ask for canter heading towards the wall. Ask for 3 strides of canter round the corner and then back to trot.
 
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