Breed type and Breeding thoughts.......

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Alec Swan

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For some years now, I've wondered what we are doing with our canine companions. Specifically, I fail to understand the ever worsening built in health problems which we seem to create.

I have always had a deep mistrust of the Show Bench, but how right is it, to simply blame them? Obviously, it isn't. In the early '70s when I was serious about gun dogs, and their breeding, Labradors mostly, blaming the Show Bench for the explosive occurrences of HD, simply wasn't on. There was a clear demarcation line between the showing, and the working lot, and it was very rare to find dogs with a mixture of the two aspects in their pedigrees, and yet the occurrences of HD in the working Labrador, were rife; clearly, the show bench were not responsible. Flaws in many breeds can perhaps be attributed to either a very small gene pool, or a fashionable following of only a few stud dogs, but with work bred gun dogs, there is a massive availability of well bred stud dogs, so I'm left wondering why.

When I was a serious trainer and breeder, 30+ years ago, elbow problems were virtually unheard-of. We have a massive gene pool of qualified work dogs, so how has this happened? I have no clear answer, and will happily be told.

On here very recently, we had a poster with a young lurcher, with HD. I've owned and bred a great many lurchers, over the years, and I was and still am, flabbergasted!! Plenty of cross breeding, with outcrosses, and a limitless gene pool, so how on earth does this happen.

It's long been my view, that breeds of dogs have evolved, and rather stagnated, and I've often thought that judicious outcrosses to those breeds, which are similar, or were used in the original creation, could be re-used to inject a dose of hybrid vigour, but considering the lurcher mentioned above, just what would my thoughts achieve? Probably nothing!!

I'd be interested to hear what others think. "Dunno" isn't on, there must be answers, somewhere!!

Alec.
 
In my view it is down to humans. In the wild, very few dogs with hd would survive to reproduce. In general they would be less likely to catch prey to live for as long as they can now with modern medicines and veterinary techniques. I think there are some breeders who want to make money off the back of their dog having a good show record/breeding lines so are able to match dogs that have good lines without considering the consequences. Without the breeders caring for these dogs and breeding from them, their lines (I do not feel) would be as long. This is of course generalising and there are many breeders who do their best to breed the best with the best to produce a consistant and improved litter.

In summary, it is likely natural selection would have reduced the problem we now have with hd and the likes.
 
Alec,during my foxhound puppy walking days one of "mine" had elbow problems, disunited something or other.Now we all know that defective hounds just are`nt kept or bred from,but there was Brimstone with this condition.Anyway,I paid for the required op and he got to enjoy three seasons of hunting till it caught up with him.
So if a congenital condition can erupt from such ideally pure working lines as in a foxhound kennel..what hope for ordinary breeders? It is extremely irksome to me ,this great disparity between working and show lines in all breeds.Look at the pre-war GSD..it looked like todays working type Malinois,and no doubt this is why more and more security/police establishments are using Malis, sounder,quicker ,more drive..and a much longer working life.In fact a better investment of funds.
 
Bear in mind HD and ED can be caused by accidental damage/overwork in youth as well as parentage. That lurcher (if the owner does not mind me saying so) was abandoned and malnourished as a puppy before he was rescued and who knows if he might have had a crashing fall or something - I'd say this was more of a factor than anything.

If a young dog of a weight-beating type is jumping and slamming into a hard surface over and over and over again, especially if the diet is poor, it is going to wind up with joint problem later on.

Also bear in mind we know more now, with x-ray schemes and awareness and research. Back in the day, a dog went lame. Now we can pinpoint the cause.
I have lost count of the number of people who say 'my GSD went down in the back end' which is more attributable to CDRM than hip dysplasia.

But yes, agree, you breed for one or two attributes, then other things are allowed to slide.
If you concentrate too much on the back end of the dog, the front end will suffer.
You push the stuffing back into a busted sofa and it will probably pop out somewhere else.

EK, there are problems in the Malinois too, don't worry, us humans will probably foul up that breed too once they become more popular.
 
EAST KENT said:
.........it looked like todays working type Malinois,and no doubt this is why more and more security/police establishments are using Malis, sounder,quicker ,more drive..and a much longer working life.In fact a better investment of funds.
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Fine, but is it another breed, standing in the wings, and waiting to be wrecked? I know nothing whatsoever, of the Malinois, but having watched C_C's previous vid, I was particularly impressed. I'm tempted to think, that without the humane destruction, or the sterilisation of any of this breed, who are so afflicted, then in five years time, we'll have yet another wrecked or struggling breed.

Sad times, I fear.

Alec.
 
A friend said the other day, Malinois are themselves exaggerated, but in a different way, if you are a good trainer or you have a good dog, a Malinois can make EVERYTHING look so much more amazing.
If you are a poor trainer or you do not have a good dog, they can make EVERYTHING look an absolute mess.

Believe me, there are plenty of weak examples out there too.
 
Alec Swan said:
Fine, but is it another breed, standing in the wings, and waiting to be wrecked? I know nothing whatsoever, of the Malinois, but having watched C_C's previous vid, I was particularly impressed. I'm tempted to think, that without the humane destruction, or the sterilisation of any of this breed, who are so afflicted, then in five years time, we'll have yet another wrecked or struggling breed.

Sad times, I fear.

Alec.
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Actually as the working type is so removed from the show type of Belgian I don`t think so.In fact often for working purposes they are crossed with the similar Dutch Herder,I would prefer to see more tests for elbows/hips done by the working dog breeders of course,ability is their main aim.Certainly they are NOT a dog for the pet market,so perhaps that makes them safe from exploitation,the curse of any breed.
And the foxhound?Your thoughts ?
 
EAST KENT said:
.......
And the foxhound?Your thoughts ?
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Mine? With his known problems, the responsible Kennels, didn't breed from him, and he was put down when it was obvious that he couldn't continue. The over riding influence on the breeding of hounds is their ability, with looks being of secondary interest. Those that fail are put to sleep. They also stay within Pack administration. That doesn't, and can't happen in the sport, work, or show dog world. Perhaps therein lies the problem. I have no clear answers, no matter how I consider the question! :o:D

The problem comes, when puppies are sold on, they develop flaws, as they grow, flaws which are either missed, not recognised, or so often ignored, and because of their commercial value, they become breeding propositions, and then here we go again.

Alec.



Alec.
 
Perhaps working breeders have more to answer for in a lot of ways. Dogs being bred purely for their ability, discarded at the end of their working life so really long life beyond middle age is not a necessity. Looks have reason in some ways, as good conformation denotes soundness as we know in horses.
 
Alec Swan said:
Mine? With his known problems, the responsible Kennels, didn't breed from him, and he was put down when it was obvious that he couldn't continue. The over riding influence on the breeding of hounds is their ability, with looks being of secondary interest. Those that fail are put to sleep. They also stay within Pack administration. That doesn't, and can't happen in the sport, work, or show dog world. Perhaps therein lies the problem. I have no clear answers, no matter how I consider the question! :o:D

The problem comes, when puppies are sold on, they develop flaws, as they grow, flaws which are either missed, not recognised, or so often ignored, and because of their commercial value, they become breeding propositions, and then here we go again.

Alec.


My point was though,that hound breeding is the exact science of breeding for a purpose.Therefore nothing unsound would have gone into Brimstone`s breeding..and yet a congenital fault appeared.He was reared and kept as young hounds should be,not overstressed,fed raw etc,yet by five months this defect appeared from nowhere,odd to say the least.
As to the selling into the pet world and perpetuating physical and mental faults ,could`nt agree more.Precisely the reason my own dogs are fully health tested,and the puppies all have "not for breeding" KC endorsements on them ,which only I can remove once they prove good enough and pass all the required health tests.
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After many, many years as a breeder and exhibitor of Golden Retrievers in the US (I had 7 litters in 19 years, including a litter of one and a litter of 3, and I made up 13 champions) I, too, had/have the same questions as Alec. Here are some of my musings:

Excluding very small dogs (which were specifically selected for their size), the domestic canine usually has a substantial number of pups, after a very short gestation. When I look at the natural world and see vast numbers of individuals within families within species, it's usually attributable to the fact that those individuals are expendable, either as prey or because of the environment within which they live. Perhaps dogs are expendable. We love them, and no matter how long they live (which isn't very long in the scheme of things), it's never long enough. We talk about dogs in the wild and how they wouldn't be able to survive with HD. But, we all know that many of our domestic dogs have HD, but do not have clinical signs (modern technology, in the form of X-rays, can attest to that). Perhaps wolves carry the genes for HD (how many families of wolves, of which there are many subspecies, have been X-rayed?). I'm an avid photographer and a passionate wildlife documentary junkie with a fascination for wolves. I've noticed, over the years, that many of the wolves I've seen in wildlife films and parks, exhibit conformation qualities that we would find, as dog fanciers, objectionable and faulty within our breed standards: very close fronts (legs looking as if they were coming out of the same hole in the chest), cowhocked rears, and missing 4th pre-molars, to name a few. Yet, these very animals hunt, kill, eat, thrive without the hand of man giving them a leg up. Obviously, the weak ones don't make it. Have we imbued the wolf with qualities of "purity" that just don't exist? I've known dogs with X-rayed excellent hip joint conformation that couldn't move worth a damn, and dysplastic dogs whose movement is poetry in motion. Perhaps the domesticated canine has genetic weaknesses that harken back to a time in history before man?

Please don't jump on me. These are just personal musings that I've never put into the written form.
 
EAST KENT said:
.......Precisely the reason my own dogs are fully health tested,and the puppies all have "not for breeding" KC endorsements on them ,which only I can remove once they prove good enough and pass all the required health tests.
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Certainly a way forward, and as an artist will own the copyright to his work, so perhaps should the committed breeder. It wouldn't prevent the use of sold puppies, being used for breeding, but it would prevent the all so vital registration.

RutlandH2O said:
.......
Please don't jump on me. These are just personal musings that I've never put into the written form.
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Interesting observations, and well argued. The average domesticated dog (bitch), will produce a litter of say 7-8 puppies, and most would hope to rear all of them. The average wolf, dependent upon her protein supply and her body score, at conception, may well produce the same number, but again dependent upon the feed supply for her cubs, she may only rear half of them, and then during times of hardship, or the loss of one, or even both parents, cannibalism will almost certainly occur.

Expecting man to weed out the undesirable pups from a litter, and put them down, simply isn't going to happen, so I suppose that we're stuck with what we have, sadly.

The problem with a numerically small breed, is that if there are only a small group of breeders, who are prepared to "license" (for want of a better word), the use of their bred and sold puppies, for breeding, then we are back to reducing the gene pool to such a limited number, that we find ourselves back to square one!!

I've been thinking, whilst typing, so I only hope that the above makes sense!! :o

Alec.
 
Rutland you raise some very valid points re movement in wolves and other wild animals. I have often watched wolves (both on tv and at a local wildlife park) and commented on how "unsound" they are. Obviously the ones in the park don't live a natural life but the wild ones don't seem to have problems. My daughter took film of lions and cheetah whilst she was in S Africa and they would certainly never win soundness prizes but again travel distance and hunt without problems. I have had a bitch with atrocious hips who was one of the soundest and best moving I have ever owned, she was still winning on her movement in veteran classes.
Out of interest I have just looked at the statistics for Malinois hip scores (these are from 2008 but are the latest I could find). There have been only 141 scored, with scores varying between 0 and 60, and a breed mean score of 9. Only 138 were registered last year so there is every likelihood they could show hip problems show up as numbers increase.
 
Also, I have known a few Mali x Dutch, both working bred, they have not worked out for their owners as either they have had health problems (mostly in the gut/digestive system) or as adults are not mentally stable enough to live in the home. Just my experience though :)
 
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Everything needs a good dose of husky to sort things out. :p Almost no distinction between working and show type, low incidence of HD, very few other health issues, known for their longevity.

I'm going to place the blame firmly on the puppy farms, back yard breeders (including anyone breeding their pet bitch 'just because', no matter how virtuous their intentions) and, perhaps controversially, the move towards godawful grain-based dog foods for the proliferation of sick, lame, short-lived dogs.
 
baublecob said:
perhaps controversially, the move towards godawful grain-based dog foods for the proliferation of sick, lame, short-lived dogs.
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I agree re the cereal, I reckon it has a lot to answer for with respect to allergies/skin problems.

The higher incidence of HD and ED may not actually be much raised compared to say 40 years ago, but crucially, it is more discussed/publicised, IMO. We know now that it's not just generic lameness because as someone said, x rays are available and we can specify the exact problem.
 
baublecob said:
Mal-in-wah. Could always play it safe and go for nonspecific Belgian shepherd. :p
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Thanks for that, never to old to learn!! Mal-in-wah it is!! ;)

From the little that I've seen previously of Belgian Shepherds, I've always lumped them in with some of the other appalling excuses which I've seen. Groenendals (sp :o)? Perhaps I've only seen the worst of them. Neurotic, skinny fruit cakes, with owners to match. I'm certain that decent sane and well put together examples exist, it's just that I've never seen them.

I've now had a poke about on google, and see what I thought was a fairly decent Malinois dog which was up for sale. I don't buy trained dogs, I do it for myself, but none-the-less, I rather liked what I saw. Perhaps he was a better example. :confused:

Alec.
 
However un-PC this may be, in days of yore dogs (I'm talking gundogs here) that had health problems, or were suspected of having health problems, were usually (IME) culled. That way there was no chance of them entering a breeding programme; nowadays, dogs that are identified as having/are believed to have HD, ED, entropian, DCM or anything else are often passed on to a 'pet home', usually without being castrated/speyed first. Endorsements don't stop people breeding, just registering.

Given that HD can skip a generation or two and there are so many pet breeders that want to let their bitch have a litter and they do not KNOW
all the dogs in their bitches pedigree it's not suprising that such conditions are prevalent.

Interesting debate.....thought provoking.
 
gunnergundog,

during the 18th. and 19th. centuries, a litter of pointers, or spaniels, or what ever would be bred, run on by the breeder, and those which failed would, as you say, be culled. Today with the costs involved in producing a litter of puppies, those that are the most likely to fail, will be sold on to pet homes.

I understand that you have an interest in HPRs (in my view perhaps the most complex of disciplines!), but they evolved through weeding out the failures. Today those failures are being bred from, and I suspect that that's why many worthwhile breeds have rather lost their way, regardless of discipline.

It's so much easier with the single disciplined dogs, isn't it? Retrievers retrieve, spaniels hunt, or at least that's their primary use, but the modern HPRs? I'd bet that a huge percentage of them are in pet homes.

This has all wandered rather off topic, never mind!!

Alec.
 
As a breeder, I subscribed to the same mindset expressed by East Kent. None of my pups were sold as breeding stock, I had contracts with all of my puppy people (contracts speak for the breeder, the new owner, and most importantly, the pup), and, just to keep things on the right track, I co-owned all of my stock. My puppy "packs" explained, in plain English, what was needed/expected in the responsible ownership of a dog. If there were any medical problems with the animal, I participated in the costs involved for its life. Most responsible breeders would accept some, if not all, of these actions. Can we actually say that the backyard breeder/puppy mill owner has a direct influence on the course of a particular breed? Yes, they have an influence on the problems inherent in that breed, but most of their stock represents a dead end. The majority of people buying dogs have no intention of breeding. For those who do decide to breed, who do they go to for a stud dog? Generally, the dead end dog. My glasses are not so rose-coloured as to assume that there are no problem breeders. I just believe that responsible breeders are the repository of the heart and backbone of their respective breeds. Dogs have heritable problems which have existed for millennia. I see red when I hear words to the effect that "inbreeding causes heritable problems." Inbreeding manifests what is already there (and no, I am NOT advocating inbreeding). During my years as a breeder, I NEVER encountered any other breeders who practised inbreeding. Line breeding was practised and is a valuable tool in setting type, especially between outcrossed relatives. I know I've opened a can of worms with this post, but so many of the heritable problems we see in canis familiaris are, I believe, here to stay. Try as we might to limit HD, ED, SAS, Von Willibrands, cataracts, PRA, epilepsy, the best we can do is test for these diseases, eliminate affected dogs from any breeding program, and endeavour to support those people whose dogs become affected in the course of their lives. Some years ago I wrote to the Kennel Club regarding the serious problem of epilepsy in a particular breed. I expressed the opinion that we had to avoid a "witch hunt" in our approach to the problem and employ a "which hunt" to reveal the most favourable avenues in which to proceed.
 
RutlandH2O said:
The majority of people buying dogs have no intention of breeding.
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Maybe, back in the day, but I have lost count of the people I have come across wanting to breed their bitch or stud their dog 'just the once' or 'to have a puppy from him/her' or 'it will be nice for him/her' or basically, to make money.
I have seen pedigrees on Champdogs and other sites, I know for a fact the breeders of the dogs would be raging to know that dogs sold as pets are being bred from and are in the pedigree of sometimes defective animals, but yet, they are. Endorsement can only do so much. The dog may still be bred from. KC registration doesn't matter to someone looking for a RARE colour with BIG PAWS (sorry to labour the point :p) and a dog that people will ooh and aah over when they walk down the street.

What is it they say, it is linebreeding when you know what you are doing, inbreeding if you don't :p

I do agree with your last point, rather to lambast people, tempting as it is, it is more productive to highlight and congratulate the people doing it right.
The best thing would be for breeders with problem lines to hold their hands up, admit their mistakes and inform their buyers and stop their lines, but as we know, that does not happen as much as it should :(
 
When I bought my original Lancashire Heelers back in the 1990s their breeder told me she used to breed wire haired dachshunds. Relucantly she gave up because there were so many problems in the breed she couldnt seem to breed out and she had been breeding for 20yrs. Perhaps some breeds are beyond redemption.
 
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