Breeding - does it matter? A musing... (note that is 2 words, don't expect comedy)

scheherazade

scheherazade

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So I'm currently on the lookout for a new comp horse and have seen loads where they have a pedigree a mile long, I've even booked to see one, not because of the pedigree but because I liked the look of him and he appears to have ticked all the must-have boxes, so far...

But this led me to thinking, for the amateur rider, who only wants to go round 1.10 max, does it really matter who the horse's sire, or dam sire, or grand sire is? For instance, both my parents were lovely people but I'm a complete cow. So what guarantee is there that just because the stallion was a top jumping horse, that you will be able to too. You could hand me over the best horse in the world, and I will never get round a 1.40. I'm just not that talented.

Sorry, this is a bit rambling, but do you think pedigree, and breeding, is over rated for the thousands of "ordinary" level riders out there, the true amateurs, who are doing it because they enjoy it?? Do people buy horses for the "snob factor" just to be able to say "I own Totilas half brother's second cousin twice removed" even though they are only aiming to compete at prelim?

Not having a go at anyone, I am genuinely interested... Your thoughts?? Chocolate eclairs for all answers...
 
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I think some lines produce horses which are better for pros and some produce horses which are better for amateurs! Have 3 by the same sure with very similar habits!
 
scheherazade said:
For instance, both my parents were lovely people but I'm a complete cow.
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Haw haw haw. Dunno. I was quite ashamed when I discovered my last one was half sister to an international grade A - and we were were only doing 1.10!

I guess good breeding gives you a better chance of getting a good horse, but of course it's no guarantee.
 
vic07 said:
I think some lines produce horses which are better for pros and some produce horses which are better for amateurs! Have 3 by the same sure with very similar habits!
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So do you tend to look for breeding first, or look at the overall horse and then have a look at its breeding?
 
It does matter to me, as I have/show a specific breed. As vic07 says, there are some lines I dont consider, as fab though they are, they tend to be much more of a pro horse than I am capable of dealing with or even want to deal with.
 
I wouldn't be too dismissive of the whole breeding thing, good bloodlines are there because (some!) people have spent a lot of effort trying to produce good sound performance stock.

But for an amatuer I don't think it should be at the top of the list of 'must haves'. I can see how it can be very easy to be swayed by known names when purchasing a horse, I'm sure I have been guilty in the past and likely guilty in the future.

I do make a real joke of my current horse who I refer to as a 'mongrel'. His unregistered pony mother was had by a 3yo colt (Trak x ISH) - the colt was called 'Opinionated' and was shortly after gelded. Doesn't bode well does it!!!! The mistake offspring is a cracker though!
 
HotToTrot said:
Haw haw haw. Dunno. I was quite ashamed when I discovered my last one was half sister to an international grade A - and we were were only doing 1.10!
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Did you buy her because she was half sister to international grade A, (and would therefore presumably good at jumping) or was the pedigree not so much a factor in the decision making process??
 
ihatework said:
I wouldn't be too dismissive of the whole breeding thing, good bloodlines are there because (some!) people have spent a lot of effort trying to produce good sound performance stock.

But for an amatuer I don't think it should be at the top of the list of 'must haves'. I can see how it can be very easy to be swayed by known names when purchasing a horse, I'm sure I have been guilty in the past and likely guilty in the future.

I do make a real joke of my current horse who I refer to as a 'mongrel'. His unregistered pony mother was had by a 3yo colt (Trak x ISH) - the colt was called 'Opinionated' and was shortly after gelded. Doesn't bode well does it!!!! The mistake offspring is a cracker though!
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IHW don't get me wrong, I'm not at all dismissive of the breeding thing, I think some very knowledgeable people have done wonders to raise the profile and calibre of sport horse breeding in this country. It was merely a musing prompted by the number of ads I have seen for "Riding club allrounders" which have pedigrees a mile long
 
Don't forget that breeding will also tell you a lot about temperament too.

For example if I had known a bit more about Morris' breeding when I bought him and read all the horror stories about Animo horses I'm not sure I would have jumped in quite so quick... However, the pony in him does over ride the Animo in him more often than not thank goodness, but he definately does still have the devil in his eye every now and then.

On the other side of the coin, I have a Clover Hill 5yo in at the moment and his brain is as Irish as you can get - he's not got an ounce of his WB daddy about him, apart from his jump.

As an amateur I would be looking more at the trainability and temp than how talented the sire/dam/grandsire etc is. (Although temp and talent often go hand in hand too...).
 
Capriole said:
It does matter to me, as I have/show a specific breed. As vic07 says, there are some lines I dont consider, as fab though they are, they tend to be much more of a pro horse than I am capable of dealing with or even want to deal with.
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Of course for showing, there are a whole load of other factors to consider, such as whether they are true to type, their temperament, typical length of rein or whatever, I was thinking more of the all round riding horses
 
I own an Irish cob with no breeding at all (that we know off, obviously he had a mother and father ;) )

He has been very successful and has more than enough talent for anything I'll be brace enough to do (up to BE novice) plus has been successful at BD elem and would/will move up BD levels considerably.

I've been told by SO many top trainers that they wish more amateurs would buy horses like him and not be bogged down by wanting/thinking they need something with especially good breeding/of a certain type etc. That includes nick turner, Kenneth clawson, vicky Thompson, Andrew Gould etc.

Good breeding of course has it's place and there are very good
reasons For it. It's not that I think it's not worthwhile or that amateurs can't have well bred horses. My point is they don't necessarily need a well bred horse and may well have more fun and be more successful on something less fancy. My precious mare was a very well bred ISH with a famous sire and lots of famous relations. B has been more successful than her and I've has far more fun with him all round :D
 
scheherazade said:
Did you buy her because she was half sister to international grade A, (and would therefore presumably good at jumping) or was the pedigree not so much a factor in the decision making process??
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Pedigree was not a factor - I bought her because she was generous over a fence. When I later discovered that her half brother was so successful, I felt a bit mortified, in that she ought to be better than she was - but wasn't, because of me!

However. I am currently looking for a new horse and I've been thinking back to my old ones. If we discount ponies, this will be horse 5. Horses 1 and 3 were of unknown origin and 2 and 4 were pretty well bred. I did better on 2 and 4 than I did on 1 and 3.... coincidence?

Breeding does not mean a huge amount to me, but I think from now on I'd buy one with breeding I'd heard of. E.g. currently looking at a Darco one. I know nowt about darco, except that I've heard of it in a jumping context. I don't think I would buy one with totally unknown breeding again.
 
Ali, I completely agree, for me the most important is that the horse is a nice person to have around and that I enjoy riding it, (i.e. it doesn't frustrate me to tears or scare me half to death) that it is genuine and forgiving (I'm not perfect) and has a good brain.

It just amused me that some ads seemed to put the pedigree as the biggest selling point of the horse, and a good "name" seems to sometimes command a ridiculous premium
 
Ali16 said:
And in some other cases... they hide it as far as possible! Lol :)

Are you looking at SJers mainly?
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Not specifically, I want something to do lower level eventing (up to Novice eventually) on plus some SJ in the winter and the odd dressage test. The one I'm looking at later this week is apparently by Lupicor out of a Ditmar mare. I have no idea what that means :confused:
(obviously I know what it means but not what impact that will have on the horse's temperament / talent?!?!)

I was just curious about others' attitude to top quality pedigrees if they "only" want an all-round-not-going-to-set-the-world-alight kind of horse not go 4 star / ride internationally / compete at grand prix level
 
Tam has no breeding at all - her pedigree is unknown but 99% sure she's got Welsh Cob and TB in there somewhere. But she's been a great horse for me and is talented enough that she will probably go Intermediate BE. I never really think about breeding I have to ride the horse to decide what I like, and will go and look at a horse if it looks nice in the ad, rather than based on breeding!

Breeding has never really concerned me.
 
No, as an 'ordinary' rider I couldn't give two hoots about the breeding and choose the horse because of how it suits me and that I like it.
Now don't get me wrong breeding is incredibly important in general of course but to me specifically No.

Breeders might get cross by this but my dream horse is a TB bred to race and he suits me down to the ground as a lower level affilliated allrounder. Yes someone put a lot of thought into his dam and sire and their lines ect but that is a moot point to me as they were thinking of using him in an entirely different discipline to what he actually excels in!

My super teenage SJ/Event horse was actually bred to be a show pony but he was rejected as he grew to big. Again another horse that turned out to be brilliant at a job he was NOT bred for.

Of course, a purpose bred horse may turn out perfectly for an amature rider. However
I think some every day amature 'hobby' riders put too much thought into breeding and can buy something totally unsuitable because of it.
 
Ali16 that's interesting - my 6 year old is out of a CH mare, by a WB stallion and is also 100% his mother's son.
I think some bloodlines do throw more 'typey' horses though, and in my boy's case his clover hill side is undoubtedly the leading influence!
 
Firewall - although your horse may not have turned out so well for racing... on the assumption that he is "well bred" (and not donkey mare put to donkey stallion so someone can have donkey racehorse), I think the quality breeding helps when a horse comes to doing another job. Rather than above said donkey that never wins a race and is constantly lame.
 
AutumnRose said:
I own an Irish cob with no breeding at all (that we know off, obviously he had a mother and father ;) )

He has been very successful and has more than enough talent for anything I'll be brace enough to do (up to BE novice) plus has been successful at BD elem and would/will move up BD levels considerably.

I've been told by SO many top trainers that they wish more amateurs would buy horses like him and not be bogged down by wanting/thinking they need something with especially good breeding/of a certain type etc. That includes nick turner, Kenneth clawson, vicky Thompson, Andrew Gould etc.

Good breeding of course has it's place and there are very good
reasons For it. It's not that I think it's not worthwhile or that amateurs can't have well bred horses. My point is they don't necessarily need a well bred horse and may well have more fun and be more successful on something less fancy. My precious mare was a very well bred ISH with a famous sire and lots of famous relations. B has been more successful than her and I've has far more fun with him all round :D
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Great post AR. :)

Obviously I am biased because I also own a "Heinz 57"- appeared as a surprise package out of a coloured cob with no idea of breeding. However, had she been in the right home during her prime years I have every faith (from what I've known of her aged 15 onwards) that she could have skipped round Nov BE no bother, maybe more with the right rider. She has schooled round Nov BE fences and SJ-ed 1.15m in lessons with me aged 18/19 so can't see why she wouldn't have managed 10yrs younger.

I have come across so many people who have over-horsed themselves and are having less fun than if they had stopped searching for something with PSG/1.40m/4* "potential" and just got something that is fun, straightforward and they can go out and do stuff with.

I reckon it should be about the horse in front of you at the end of the day, not who it's parents/distant relatives are. Yes, it can help you have a better chance of having a rough idea what they will be like, can/can't do, but surely you should be mostly interested in what the actual horse is like?
 
As an amateur with not a lot of money to spend on buying a horse (actually just short arms and deep pockets) breeding wouldn't be a priority, rather the breed ie TB for eventing, IDx for hunter showing etc etc.
Certainly agree with another poster who said that people use the Sire / relatives as the main attraction when advertising. I would tend not to read the adverts that scream out who the parents are as I tend to think it's to good for me and couldn't afford it - also chances are I've never heard of them :(
I have an ex racehorse now and I must admit it's been very interesting tracing back her family tree - some of them I've even heard of :)
 
scheherazade said:
Ali, I completely agree, for me the most important is that the horse is a nice person to have around and that I enjoy riding it, (i.e. it doesn't frustrate me to tears or scare me half to death) that it is genuine and forgiving (I'm not perfect) and has a good brain.

It just amused me that some ads seemed to put the pedigree as the biggest selling point of the horse, and a good "name" seems to sometimes command a ridiculous premium
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I totally agree too.

I bought my current horse who was advertised as Selle Francais, based purely on what I saw and how he went. The breeding was on the advert but meant nothing to me, plus I was a little annoyed that I had been unable to find a heavywieght ID and against my principles I was about to buy a foreign horse who was only a middleweight.

Bought through a top end dealer I was told he was showjump bred but out of love with the game and had retrained as a dressage horse (10yr old at time of sale). I wanted a dressage/bit of showing/pleasure horse, no intentions of jumping so he fitted the bill and came home, the parting comment from the dealer was -'he is nicely bred', good luck with him.

We had him a good while and he proved very talented in the dressage and show ring, so one idle afternoon I got his passports out and stuck it into Allbreedpedigrees.

The names I Love You and Alme came up. I know nothing about showjumping, but when I found out about those 2 horses I realised what the dealer meant when he said -'nicely bred'. In reality he had the breeding to by an Olympic horse but found himself living in a field and being shown as a middlewieght hunter at Hoys.
 
so many sensible people - so who are buying all these over priced horses with mile long pedigrees which have done nothing but are aimed at the amateur market? ???

Really interesting input, as another thought, if you are an amateur does it make you feel better or slightly inadequate if you buy a horse related to something that's been round badminton / won thousands in grand prix / is totilas etc????
 
scheherazade said:
so many sensible people - so who are buying all these over priced horses with mile long pedigrees which have done nothing but are aimed at the amateur market? ???

Really interesting input, as another thought, if you are an amateur does it make you feel better or slightly inadequate if you buy a horse related to something that's been round badminton / won thousands in grand prix / is totilas etc????
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They are the people who then place adverts with comments like 'wasted in present home' or 'slightly too much horse for me' etc.

The only thing that makes us feel better as true amateurs is when our peanut the pony beat the professionals. If it's good enough it will win despite who mummy and daddy are.
 
AdorableAlice said:
They are the people who then place adverts with comments like 'wasted in present home' or 'slightly too much horse for me' etc.

The only thing that makes us feel better as true amateurs is when our peanut the pony beat the professionals. If it's good enough it will win despite who mummy and daddy are.
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.... and conversely, if it is ridden by a pleb, it will never reach the giddy heights of its parents. No matter how well bred it is. I know, I am that pleb!!! :D
 
I think its safe to say that its not uncommon for very good horses to have pretty good breeding. There will always be one or two freaks of nature out there but on the whole they are rare.

I never purely go on breeding but it helps me to have an idea of what is there and what they will be most suitable for. For instance I would not want to go jumping on a Lauries Crusador horse!!
Temperament, conformation, athleticism all count for more and if they are well bred its a bonus. But good breeding would sway me to go and look at a horse over something not so well bred.
 
LEC said:
I think its safe to say that its not uncommon for very good horses to have pretty good breeding. There will always be one or two freaks of nature out there but on the whole they are rare.

I never purely go on breeding but it helps me to have an idea of what is there and what they will be most suitable for. For instance I would not want to go jumping on a Lauries Crusador horse!!
Temperament, conformation, athleticism all count for more and if they are well bred its a bonus. But good breeding would sway me to go and look at a horse over something not so well bred.
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Very fair point, well made. However I don't think there is enough information available on all aspects of a certain line, especially in terms of temperament. I get the impression that for those in the know, there are certain lines that would people off, but most people would have no idea which they are, or why... :confused:
 
Thanks to the internet there is a lot of information. I find the US forums brilliant as go into massive detail dissecting lines.

Sporthorse Data is my favourite I will spend hours looking at horses I love and seeing what they have in common with breeding. I also like looking at photos of all the stallions.

I also watch as many stallion shows as possible online to see what I like and then if that relates to breeding I like. Goresbridge Going for Gold was a good one to watch for eventing as you could see loads of horses including jumping and then see how they were bred. I would love to breed one day but until then I am an interested amateur.

I am also very keen on TBs and those who relate well in sport horses and those names that seem to crop up again and again.
 
Once the horse is in front of you, then breeding can only give you clues to the things you can't see. A horse that's bred to jump but doesn't jump well is of no use to you if you want a jumper!

The real purpose of the years and years of research and experimentation and thought that's gone into studbook breeding is supposed to improve the breed as a whole. Individuals that don't make the grade are supposed to be removed from the pool but yes, they will exist. I suspect they are more likely to turn up in programs that don't encourage culling, by whatever means, but that's another subject . . .

As far as buying a horse for personal use, obviously you buy the horse in front of you. BUT as people have said above, breeding can tell you a fair bit about what strengths and weaknesses a horse may have, particularly if it's not old enough to test. It's not as simple as saying a horse has this or that animal in its pedigree though, it's about what various lines might bring to the party and how they fit together.

So, to use LECs example, I would probably not be hopeful about a horse with Lauries Crusader close up as a jumping prospect BUT if it had some LC in there but also a lot of say, Darco, or Argentinus, or Q de R or something else I really liked for jumping, I might be a whole lot more interested to see it in the flesh, where the truth would then become evident. LC seems to be a bit of a jump killer but I'm sure it depends how strong the other bits are, too, as he did have some own offspring who jumped. (Houston, on the other hand, not so much!)

Re the advertising . . . all with a grain of salt! Saying a horse has Nimmerdor/Furioso/Alme/even Ramiro in its pedigree means very little now. That's true of just about every horse with a drop of jumping blood in it these days and it's so diluted as to mean not much! What's closer is more important. I've frequently seen or been told about horses that simply cannot be bred the way people say, even in the age of frozen semen - they've clearly just picked out the one name they know from the pedigree and slapped it on up front!

Re "unknown" breeding, that doesn't necessarily mean bad breeding! General quality of horses had improved tremendously even within my memory now and I'm sure there are lots of "unknown" horses trekking about that are really quite decently bred! Also, although passports are supposed to stop it and microchips have made it much tougher, people lie! There have been some very good horses that have had their names changed and their origins shrouded in secrecy. There was a very good horse that jumped for Canada and a lot was made of his "rescue" from being a lousy dressage horse (with a totally unsuitable rider) and his "amazing" jumping ability! Hmm, not so much. . . he was an Argentinus son with a name change! ;) So, well bred or unknown?

All that said, I think Autumn Rose's eloquent post makes the best point - horses for courses! Buying a horse that's bred to go to the Olympics for a relatively inexperienced rider . . . well, you can see how that might go wrong! And it's not just about "having patience with the horse" or "retraining it" or even "learning to ride it". If a horse is bred to go fast and jump in the air, then it's much more likely to do that, even if the rider can't cope. Especially if the rider can't cope! ;) Having a horse that's bred for the job doesn't mean having the "best" bred horse, it means having the horse that's best bred to do the job.
 
LEC said:
But good breeding would sway me to go and look at a horse over something not so well bred.
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Agree with this! However, one person's 'good breeding' is another person's nightmare. So I wouldn't be attracted to a horse boasting fantastic breeding unless I knew that that breeding produced temperaments suitable for the amateur/Riding Clu b type home. I would also be more interested if the dam is well-bred and has a good performance record as well.

I must admit that a few years ago I was of the opinion that breeding didn't matter at all. However, we now have two fabulous all-rounders that whilst having good sires, also were out of well-bred mares (one by Jalisco B, one by Clover Hill) with good performance records. So, yes, whilst looking for a horse now, breeding is something that I would take into account, although it would be secondary to other considerations, and I would be looking at the dam's side carefully as well. For example, I might be tempted to travel further to view a promising horse with similar breeding to my daughter's horse, than I would to a similar horse with different breeding.

I can see the OP's point though, as I have often seen ads boasting about a horse's fantastic breeding (which usually means it has one famous great great grandsire in its pedigree) when it obviously has nothing else to offer in terms of conformation, temperament or performance!
 
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