Breeding from lame mares?

Pigeon

Pigeon

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A weird one, but today I was thinking of how common it is to breed from unsound mares - in particular mares whose health issues arose at a young age. It is almost the norm.

Would you breed from an unsound stallion? One whose career was ended at age five or six due to lameness?

I am aware that a broken leg in the field is probably not a reflection of a horse's genetic makeup. But early onset arthritis can be entirely hereditary, and when a horse does two tendons on different legs.. Is there a congenital weakness there?

Are there any particular circumstances where you would or would not breed from an unsound mare?

Do you think this practice has had an impact on the general soundness of the equine population?
 
Yes I think breeding from lame young mares can have a impact on the soundness of the offspring .
However I would happily have the offspring of a older mare who was proven herself and then suffered those aging wear and tear type lameness horses suffer .
 
The same thought came to me reading a recent thread, I would not breed from a mare with early arthritic changes, unless they were due to a known direct injury, to me it is in part why there are so many horses that are suffering from degenerative conditions so young, if the mare could not stand up to work then there is every chance the youngster could inherit the same problems.

Unsoundness for reasons of injury I would consider in both mare and stallion but it would depend on the injury, was it an accident or due to poor conformation, the former not such an issue, the latter should not be bred from.

Yes I do think it has an impact on the population, our native ponies seem to be tough and relatively sound, it is many of the cobs of unknown/ unproven origin that often seem to go wrong at a young age along with the flashy ones bred for movement and looks.

Just seen the reply by GS and agree an older mare that is proven is a different prospect, we all suffer from wear and tear to a degree.
 
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Goldenstar said:
Yes I think breeding from lame young mares can have a impact on the soundness of the offspring .
However I would happily have the offspring of a older mare who was proven herself and then suffered those aging wear and tear type lameness horses suffer .
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^^ agree.

Under different circumstances I would have dearly loved to have put Millie in foal despite having had some lameness issues, as they were all results of accidents and she has had a long successful and busy working life beforehand without issue.

Actually it's the worst thing about having a rescue horse, not having that as an option, for a fabulous mare.
 
I wouldn't personally breed from something that effectively has broken down at a fairly young age, I did have a mare that had an injury to her ddft at 13 that ended her ridden career she also had cushings, she was very well bred and had been bred with in her previous home many people could not understand why I wouldn't put her in foal, I would have potentially kept her foal and the thought of a repeat in what happened with her was enough to put me off to be honest, I have no idea if cushings is hereditary but having had 2 horses get it quite young in there lives is enough to make it a worry.

I was also told by my vet that her injury had a lot of old scar tissue so chances are she originally did the injury before we had her which is why she was no longer jumped much after about 8 years old and put in foal.
 
I totally agree.

If I were to breed it would be a horse for me to keep so I'd be looking for a broodmare who had proven herself and was sound of body and mind.
 
I wouldn't breed from a mare who whose lameness was caused by something in their genetic make up ( arthritis at an early age, confirmation which led to lameness etc) but I did happily breed from a mare who had broken down in her mid teens on the polo ground after a long hard career. She was a beautiful and talented mare, had two smashing foals both of whom went onto have successful polo careers.
 
A neighbour is planning to breed this year from a horse with kissing spines and djd of the hind fetlocks who is ten and has never stood up to a serious day's work in her life. Unfortunately the mare is well bred and some unfortunate person is going to be fooled into buying a foal that probably won't last either :(

BP I think you are right, far too much breeding from broken mares going on :(
 
I agree it depends on why thematics lame, what age she is but also how lame she is, I have seen some mares really struggling when they are heavily pregnant as the lamness gays souch worse.
Problem is many vets suggest it, at the last yard I worked at one mare was fully retired at 6 due to front suspensories breaking down and severe arthritis in her knees, the vets wanted to PTS but when owner declined the vets suggested putting her in foal because she had a great work ethic!
 
I think to get the best offspring you need the best animal and a lame one is not the best. Why force them to be lame and look after a foal which is quite stressful.
 
It does seem to be a popular choice for lame and also temperamental mares. I have often wondered how it impacts on the horse population as a whole
 
There is a mare on my yard. Before she was bought she had been started at 2 then bred, had the foal at 3 and after weaning was put into full work. She was bought at 4.

She is now rising 9, but has essentially been out of work for almost 3 years after doing three different tendons in three different legs.

It has been suggested that she is retired to stud...
 
I fell out with a Riding for the Disabled group over this issue. They didn't own their horses; they leased them from the yard owner. One of the horses was a warmblood, an ex-showjumper who'd broken down in her early teens and could only manage a career as an RDA horse. You could see why she hadn't lasted as a jumper: tiny feet, upright pasterns, post-legged. Sweet mare, but a conformational mess; I would not have touched her with a bargepole.

Myself and the RDA instructor were leading the mare around the arena, and the instructor said that they would not be able to use her next year because the owner was putting her in foal.

"Oh, yay," I said, because I have a big mouth. "Just what the world needs. More badly conformed horses that break down by the time they're ten."

I didn't continue volunteering with them. There were a few questionable things that went on with those horses. The RDA instructors had warned me when I started that I might see some less than ideal things, but they had no control over how well tack fit, whether lame horses saw the vet, shoeing, etc., because the horses weren't theirs. Thus I should just not say anything. Their relationship with the horses' owner was apparently "delicate," so they were not going to rock the boat by criticizing her (usually cheap-ass) care.
 
Me neither - I have a lovely mare with a heart of gold, best horse to ride, but she's not the strongest and has had soundness issues, so I would never think to breed from her. I know people who have bred from mares who retired early for lameness, not caused by injury, and I do wonder what the long term future of those foals will be.

Too much random breeding about generally, just because you have a mare than can breed, doesn't mean you should. It is def not the cheap way to get yourself another horse!
 
I used to breed dressage horses, and have NEVER covered an unsound mare. The only mare I've had which was lame broke her hock in a field accident, but was actually sound on it after a couple of years. If you want sound stock, breed from sound parents (and hope for the best :-).
 
be positive said:
The same thought came to me reading a recent thread, I would not breed from a mare with early arthritic changes, unless they were due to a known direct injury, to me it is in part why there are so many horses that are suffering from degenerative conditions so young, if the mare could not stand up to work then there is every chance the youngster could inherit the same problems.

Unsoundness for reasons of injury I would consider in both mare and stallion but it would depend on the injury, was it an accident or due to poor conformation, the former not such an issue, the latter should not be bred from.

Yes I do think it has an impact on the population, our native ponies seem to be tough and relatively sound, it is many of the cobs of unknown/ unproven origin that often seem to go wrong at a young age along with the flashy ones bred for movement and looks.

Just seen the reply by GS and agree an older mare that is proven is a different prospect, we all suffer from wear and tear to a degree.
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Yep this

I had a very well bred warmblood who was retired at the age of 13 with back ks. The amount of people telling me to breed Bromley her as apart from the KS she was very very well put together and had amazingly floaty gaits with a huge jump.
When I flat out told them to get real they eventually got the message that breeding from her wold be a stupid idea as a)it's not fair with a bad back to add in the weight of the foal anf b) ks can be passed to the foal so why would I take that risk?

It's a shame as with the right stallion the offspring would have been amazing but her health and the foals health comes first.
 
I would only breed from an unsound mare if she had stayed sound long enough to prove herself and was unsound due to an accident. any mare with skeletal problems would be a no for me as it could so easily be passed on to the offspring.
 
I would use a mare or stallion that had become unsound due to injury or accident but not one who had broken down due to degenerative or conformation issues at a young age or those that are unsound due to conformational issues.

I have a stallion who presents unsound sometimes due to scar tissue in his stifle from hanging himself upside down over a gate before he came to me and a mare who was retired due to a fracture sustained in a rotational fall.
 
I saw one on FB last week - 2yo mare in Leahurst diagnosed with wobblers and various other major problems. The owners have been told she'll never be ridden or driven and from what I can gather have been discouraged from pursuing the breeding route by the vets but are now selling her as potential broodmare!
 
I'd only do it if the lameness was the result of an accident, if her breeding, temperament and conformation were all good and the injury didn't prevent her carrying the foal without affecting her adversely.

A friend considered it with a lovely young mare she had. She was well bred, had a lovely nature, was very nicely put together. She had taken beautifully to being ridden, having been backed and ridden away a few months before. One day, she managed to get onto a very narrow strip of land between the back of the stables and the boundary hedge. We still don't know how she got in there as we couldn't get in there (had to cut through a thicket of brambles to get her out). We didn't even know there was room for a horse in there. Sadly, a load of building rubble had been dumped there (probably over the boundary hedge years before) including glass and she cut her leg really badly, almost slicing clean through the tendon. Although the tendon healed pretty well, she was never sound enough to be ridden again. My friend asked the vet about breeding and he said that while she had a lot going for her he couldn't guarantee her leg would stand up to the extra weight of the foal so she was just a very beautiful lawn mower for the rest of her life.

Of course, even having the perfect parents doesn't mean you'll get the foal you want. We recently discovered my share horse was an attempt to breed a show quality cob. Both his dam and his sire were very nicely bred, a 14.3 welsh x shire and 15.3 tb. He turned out as a 17hh heinz with a tiny pony head, TB legs and feet with shire proportioned feather, a tiny wispy mane, the thickest, most luxurious tail you've ever seen and an enormous backside! We love him though.
 
Leaving aside her temperament issues (not the best), my mare has a 50% chance of passing on PSSM and also has early onset arthritis - so no babies for her, as much as I'd like a spotty foal!
 
It seems to be the done thing to tack onto a mares for sale ad if she is unridable " ideal broodmare". I guess the thought it that a broodmare is more valuable than "ideal companion".
 
When I bought my youngsters I did ask about their dams and why they had retired to stud as I felt that it was important information and would help me decide if the youngstock out of those mares were worth looking at seriously.

Having said that, this thread is slightly making me regret my decision to not breed from my chestnut mare. Unfortunately the opportunity to breed from her has passed as I don't have the spare funds and at rising 20, time isn't on her side.
 
A friend of mine had a lovely sj mare. She sold her on after she lost confidence jumping and a year later mare had an awful field accident and fractured a leg. All healed up but not sound enough to jump, and this mare lived to jump. Friend saw she was up for sale as a happy hacker and bought her back and she is being used as a broodmare. Baby 1 just started being backed and is lookibg fab. Mare is field sound and fully retired. Just devastating that a field injury destroyed such a promising 1.40 career for her! She's 15 now and awaiting baby 3 to appear.

Those with genetic/weakness lameness such as arthritis or early suspensory injuries not brought on by accidents I'd never breed with. Temperament wise I think it depends, a friend has a slightly grumpy mare, but nothing awful and proven in harness. Completely different ground temperament to work ethic which is incredible so just planning a really well mahnered andblaid back stallion if sde ever gets put in foal. Friend also has her half sister and she has a golden temperament so that's also a help.
 
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