Breeding myths...

AndyPandy

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I thought I would post this to debunk some popular breeding myths before we get into the breeding season properly... please feel free to make any additions you like!

My mare absorbed the embryo

Sorry, but this one is a myth. Despite the fact that stud vets al over the globe still use the terms "absorb" and "resorb" and "reabsorb", it has been shown that this does not occur. Fluid associated with the embryo is absorbed by the uterus, but the embryo itself is aborted and is ejected through the cervix during the next estrus cycle, as the uterus is simply not capable of breaking down and absorbing embryonic tissue.

Mares have a 28 day oestrus cycle

Humans have a 28 day cycle. The typical mare’s cycle lasts for 21 days, although every mare is different and some mares may have shorter or longer than average cycles.

Old mares experience menopause

While it is true that some older mares are less fertile, there is no equine menopause, as such. Some mares may “shut down” after the age of 20, but this is not a universal occurrence.

Old mares have old, damaged eggs, and will produce foals with problems such as bad legs, deformities etc.

Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have. These older eggs may not be as viable, and so may be less likely to produce pregnancies. However, DNA is DNA, and the genes in each egg remain unchanged, whatever the age of the mare (and the egg). Environmental factors and mare/stallion genetics cause these problems, not old eggs!

My mare cannot be successfully bred using AI, and must be covered naturally to become pregnant

There may be a variety of reasons why this may appear to be the case, but generally it is because the mare has delayed uterine clearance issues. During the teasing stages of natural covering, the mare releases oxytocin which helps to clear the uterus of any post breeding debris and fluid. Exactly the same results can be achieved with judicious use of AI and oxytocin administration.

Having a mare around a stallion will cause her to go into estrus

This myth stems from the fact that mares show signs of being in season when they are presented with the required stimulus (i.e. a stallion). Some mares cycle silently, and will only show any sign of being in estrus when a stallion is nearby. Stallion presence does NOT cause estrus.

My mare had a reaction to the semen extender

Extender is extremely unlikely to cause a reaction in the uterus of the mare. It is possible however, that if the mare is sensitive to a particular antibiotic, and that antibiotic is present in the extender, that it may cause excessive uterine inflammation. However, blaming the extender for failure to achieve a pregnancy is short-sighted and it is strongly suggested that all the other possibilities are investigated first.


I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!

No you didn’t. Mares continue to show estrus signs for 2-3 days after ovulation in some cases. What probably happened is that the mare was taken to stud after ovulation, but while still showing this post-ovulatory estrus behaviour. It is not physically possible to “knock off” a follicle – otherwise everyone would drive their mares around in order to perfectly time ovulations.

X-rays kill sperm when they are scanned in airport security

There is no research that supports this theory. In fact, studies that have been undertaken show no reduced fertility of sperm exposed to x-rays.

Pregnancy rates are higher in the wild than they are managed breeding programmes

While this may be true in a poorly managed programme, in a well managed programme it is totally false. We manage to breed mares which, in the wild, could not be bred and would be driven out of the herd.

Wild stallions breed their own daughters, so inbreeding is totally natural

In New Bolton, Pennsylvania, the equine behaviour centre has studied a feral herd of ponies for over 9 years now. They have never had an inbred foal. When fillies become sexually active, they leave their birth herd, and seek new stallions. Inbreeding is man made, and is likely to be a significant factor in reduced fertility of modern animals.

It is dangerous for a menstruating woman to be in the presence of a stallion

There is no reason why this should be the case, and no evidence to support the hypothesis. It is likely to be a relic of the male-dominated breeding set-ups of the late 19th and early 20th century.

The foal’s umbilical stump should be treated with iodine after birth

Iodine has been shown to be far too astringent on neonatal umbilical tissue. It should in fact be treated with a 0.5% chlorohexidine solution, four times a day for the first 3 days after birth.

Foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into estrus

This was thought to be the case until one farm began worming the mares shortly after birth with an ivermectin based wormer – this almost completely eliminated the scours. It is now thought that the scours are due to the transfer of worm eggs in the mares milk.

I hope you find these interesting. Please let me know if you can think of anymore, or you disagree with any of them
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Bossanova

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[ QUOTE ]
Old mares have old, damaged eggs, and will produce foals with problems such as bad legs, deformities etc.

Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have. These older eggs may not be as viable, and so may be less likely to produce pregnancies. However, DNA is DNA, and the genes in each egg remain unchanged, whatever the age of the mare (and the egg). Environmental factors and mare/stallion genetics cause these problems, not old eggs!


[/ QUOTE ]

I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur.
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost.
 

Shilasdair

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[ QUOTE ]

Foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into estrus

This was thought to be the case until one farm began worming the mares shortly after birth with an ivermectin based wormer – this almost completely eliminated the scours. It is now thought that the scours are due to the transfer of worm eggs in the mares milk.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting post, thank you.
I have my doubts regarding the wormer one above, and would like more information (if you have it). What sort of parasites are involved, and are there any scientific studies to back up the stud's experiences?
S
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AndyPandy

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Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have...

I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur.
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would agree with your disagreement if oocytes were "normal" cells which underwent mitosis throughout the mares life. However, they do not.

The mare is born with a set number of primary oocytes on each ovary. The primary oocytes remain dormant until they are recruited for maturation (ootidogenesis). They are therefore not under the same aging stresses that normal cells are under (no real metabolic activity, no mitosis, no changes to the DNA). Even when they do mature, their meiosis is halted at metaphase II until fertilisation takes place.

Normal cellular aging does not effect oocytes because there is no telomere shortening, because their is no cellular reproduction. So 20 year old oocytes are not any different to 3 year old oocytes.
 

AndyPandy

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[ QUOTE ]
Interesting post, thank you.
I have my doubts regarding the wormer one above, and would like more information (if you have it). What sort of parasites are involved, and are there any scientific studies to back up the stud's experiences?
S
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[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the first study was Ludwig et al, 1984, but many subsequent studies have shown this to be the case. Direct administration of ivermectin to the neonate can cause severe toxicity which can lead to blindness and other complications.

There is still debate over whether the ivermectin prevents transfer of eggs/worms in the milk, or whether is does something else to alter the way the foals gut deals with new pathogens in the first fortnight.

If I find any more info, I will let you know
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Try it and see what happens though.
 

machannah

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AP - what wormer do you recommend to stop scouring? My chap didnt have anything last time, so i may have done something right by accident!!
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KarynK

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Re what sort of parasites:

I believe that the two species involved in foal scours would be Intestinal Threadworms and Large Roundworms. But I would put my money on the Threadworms as they are passed through the mares milk and they have a short lifecycle so this is probably the culprit, which would make the ivermectin dose on foaling effective at preventing the scours at a young age along with loss of appetite and dullness. Natural immunity is acquired at around 6 months of age with these beasties so they do not affect juveniles or adults.

With the Roundworms the eggs have a sticky coating and no matter how clean the stables and equipment the eggs of these little suckers will be there waiting for years, even on the mares udder!!! And of course when your foal starts eating ma’s dung to get its bacteria hey presto a perfect oportunity!
 

AndyPandy

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I would go for Eqvalan. Interestingly enough, Eqvalan was also shown to improve sperm quality in stallions about 20 years ago! It's good stuff
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(always consult your vet, and the wormer vendor before use etc.)
 

CrazyMare

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When you say worm on foaling with an ivermectin, what time frame are you looking at? Worming within an hour of foaling? 4-6 hours of foaling?
 

machannah

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Interesting, I primarily used Eqvalan when I had my ponies etc, and then the market changed and people recommended others so I havent used in a while

I shall go purchase some for my lady and put it my box of important things! Thank you
 

Shilasdair

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I didn't worm my last foal until she was over one year old...had her worm counted regularly and never found a single egg....especially if we're talking roundworms, and threadworms which show up on faecal worm counts, I believe.
The mare hadn't had any worms for a couple of years...and yes, that foal did scour.
Also - if it is roundworm, etc - why would you use ivermectin as many of the other wormers do not have resistance yet?
I'll look up the studies...thanks for the reference.
S
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kumala

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Hi AP, i wonder if you could help me with a possible myth as you are the breeding guru:), ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother? I have seen a conversation on another forum and was hoping this wasn't true as i plan to do it possibly in a few years with my mare!
 

Tia

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I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.
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arwenplusone

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[ QUOTE ]
I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.
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[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't and so haven't treated any foals/mares in this way. But last year my filly scoured so badly we had to put her on a drip
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could have been a bug but I will try the Ivermectin this year and see!

Thanks AndyPandy - good post
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AndyPandy

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...ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, this is nature versus nurture
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Genetically, an ET foal is no different to a foal from a "natural" birth. So in this respect, ET and natural foals are exactly the same.

Size wise, I think the mare's uterus is 80% responsible for the size of the foal at birth. Then the foal's genetics determine the amount of growth from that point. So theoretically, the ET foal could end up smaller or larger than a natural foal, although in practise I really don't know what the final difference is (if there is any real significant difference at all).

The argument really comes up when we talk about the foal's upbringing. A lot of ET recipients are old TBs who were too slow or too stubborn to race well. Others are unwanted shires. Generally, they are not wanted for whatever reason (generally untalented or lazy etc.). The argument goes that a grade A SJ mare will have a really hard working personality, and that will be a part of her success. So, when she has a foal, she raises that foal to be like herself... she passes on her personality (to an extent) through nurture.

Now, imagine that particular foal was flushed and transferred to a TB who was pulled from racing at 4. She's been stuck in fields, being a mum/herd animal for a couple of years. She's dosile, a bit simple, and very polite. The foal then, might become lazy, thick and naughty (because mum is too nice to tell foalie off). There-in lies your difference...

Now, I don't know whether or not these foals will have the same potential. It could quite easily work the other way, where the recipient nurtures the foal to be BETTER than if he was raised by his natural mother. No-one really knows.

There was an instance of a cloned pair of mules racing, and they hoped for a dead heat. One came 3rd, the other 7th... due to nurture and training. Who knows which had more of an influence.

In my opinion, nurture is not that strong, especially as we take the foals away from the mothers at 4-6months of age, and then they have several years of human nurturing before competing etc. At the end of the day, the genetics are the same, and genetics are the most major player in what people and animals are able to do.

Sorry if that was a little garbled
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AndyPandy

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I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.
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[/ QUOTE ]

THANKS TIA!
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So glad someone has used ivermectin and had good results - within 12 hours it is then
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[ QUOTE ]
Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have...

I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur.
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would agree with your disagreement if oocytes were "normal" cells which underwent mitosis throughout the mares life. However, they do not.

The mare is born with a set number of primary oocytes on each ovary. The primary oocytes remain dormant until they are recruited for maturation (ootidogenesis). They are therefore not under the same aging stresses that normal cells are under (no real metabolic activity, no mitosis, no changes to the DNA). Even when they do mature, their meiosis is halted at metaphase II until fertilisation takes place.

Normal cellular aging does not effect oocytes because there is no telomere shortening, because their is no cellular reproduction. So 20 year old oocytes are not any different to 3 year old oocytes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know nothing about equine breeding, but a bit about biology - are horses not subject to the same age-related genetic problems humans are? Thinking of such things as the increased risk of Down's Syndrome as women get pregnant later in life etc?

As I say, I know very little about breeding, have no intention of doing any and am just curious as I have an interest in biology.
 

AndyPandy

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I know nothing about equine breeding, but a bit about biology - are horses not subject to the same age-related genetic problems humans are? Thinking of such things as the increased risk of Down's Syndrome as women get pregnant later in life etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

The most recent research has shown that Downs syndrome is due to a random event during the formation of sex cells or pregnancy.
So, either, a dodgy egg is released, or something happens in the oviduct on fertilisation.

My theory of Downs syndrome is as follows:
Women are also born with all the eggs they will ever have. Now say, just for the sake of argument, they have 480 eggs. Only one of those 480 eggs is capable of producing a Downs syndrome child. So, the chance of that Downs egg getting randomly ovulated during the first 20 years (after puberty) are fairly small, but as they woman ages, the chance of this egg being ovulated get higher, and higher, and after 40 years (if you're a super-menopause-avoiding-woman
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) then, the only egg left will be that Downs egg. So the probability there is 100% of getting a Downs syndrome baby.

These eggs are not damaged by age, they have always been damaged, and were made that way while that woman was still in her mother's uterus!

So, even that case does not say anything about "old eggs", just about the chance of a dodgy egg being ovulated as you get older.

Does that sound about right?
 

SpottedCat

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know nothing about equine breeding, but a bit about biology - are horses not subject to the same age-related genetic problems humans are? Thinking of such things as the increased risk of Down's Syndrome as women get pregnant later in life etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

The most recent research has shown that Downs syndrome is due to a random event during the formation of sex cells or pregnancy.
So, either, a dodgy egg is released, or something happens in the oviduct on fertilisation.

My theory of Downs syndrome is as follows:
Women are also born with all the eggs they will ever have. Now say, just for the sake of argument, they have 480 eggs. Only one of those 480 eggs is capable of producing a Downs syndrome child. So, the chance of that Downs egg getting randomly ovulated during the first 20 years (after puberty) are fairly small, but as they woman ages, the chance of this egg being ovulated get higher, and higher, and after 40 years (if you're a super-menopause-avoiding-woman
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) then, the only egg left will be that Downs egg. So the probability there is 100% of getting a Downs syndrome baby.

These eggs are not damaged by age, they have always been damaged, and were made that way while that woman was still in her mother's uterus!

So, even that case does not say anything about "old eggs", just about the chance of a dodgy egg being ovulated as you get older.

Does that sound about right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I hadn't seen any latest research as I have very little to do with 'pure' biology these days (but if you need any bats counted, badgers spotted or reptiles moved, I'm your girl
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)

That does make sense from a statistical point of view, and also makes more sense from a biological point of view as (as you previously stated) the oocytes don't go through the same sort of cellular regeneration as other cells (if I remember correctly from that bit of uni!).

So theoretically the same could be true for equines - it's a myth that 'old eggs' cause a problem, but a fact that the older the mare, the more likely that an egg will be released which has a problem, assuming it has not been released earlier in life. Because it is less common for a mare (or human) to have their first offspring at an older age, the prevelance of so called 'age-related' issues is higher than in younger mares/humans, who are more likely to have been retired from breeding once the required number of offspring (more human than horse!!) has been achieved. I think I know what I am trying to say....
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AndyPandy

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christine48

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[ QUOTE ]
Hi AP, i wonder if you could help me with a possible myth as you are the breeding guru:), ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother? I have seen a conversation on another forum and was hoping this wasn't true as i plan to do it possibly in a few years with my mare!

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder about this question as my foals all have behavioural traits like their dam. If they were ET foals would they have the behavioural traits of the recipient mare?
 

christine48

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi AP, i wonder if you could help me with a possible myth as you are the breeding guru:), ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother? I have seen a conversation on another forum and was hoping this wasn't true as i plan to do it possibly in a few years with my mare!

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder about this question as my foals all have behavioural traits like their dam. If they were ET foals would they have the behavioural traits of the recipient mare?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry just looked back and noticed Andy Pandy has already answered this one
 

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I've been led to believe that although the eggs of an older mare may be perfectly viable, it's the uterus that causes poor foals in older mares. If I remember rightly the placenta doesn't receive as much blood supply due to cysts and breaking down with age of the uterus wall. Is this correct?
 

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Yay! A good and informative post which all of us can learn from.
I don't profess to be an expert and am always happy for posts like this to be put up, last year taught me a lot with losing one foal and almost another to that ecoli bug, and I had no idea that a test was available which might have helped us avoid it.
I think there is room for all of us on here, the professionals who do a marvellous job, the people like us who enjoy breeding but don't devote their lives to it, and the amateur who wants to reproduce their own stock having been thrilled with their mare and want another.
Years ago you just took your mare to the stud, they tried her until they felt she was ready and covered her, waited until a season had been missed and collected her hopefully in foal. there were no tests to prove it, no AI, no scanning etc and twins were a common problem.
We can now scan to see what the situation is with the reprocutive cycle, adjust it if necessary, scan again to see exactly when to cover, and do the deed knowing you couldn't have planned it better! We have scanned again to check the results and tweaked a twin on occasions too. (our vet not us)
So a lot more help is available and with the expertise available with AI the majority of mares can be successfully bred from.
I think there is room for a middle ground so it doesn't have to be quite so technical (obviously with expensive stock managing it as above has to be done) , we cover according to the stallion's signal's and only resort to help if the mare doesn't catch first go. It's reassurring to know we can have help though, and it is a massive benefit to owners because your mare can be there, covered, scanned and home again saving keep fees.
Please keep posting info A-P, I for one would welcome some more info about testing the mare /foal after foaling, I read a little about it but not enough.
We are having a quiet foaling year this time but will be covering our usual mares again this time, hopefully we can get slightly earlier dates, though the weather here means no way can you foal outside prior to early May..
 

AndyPandy

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I think it's probably delayed uterine clearance, reduced uterine tone, reduced immune response, possible interference from cysts, poorer blood supply, poorer cervical integrity, possible fibrosis from infections and a number of other age-associated problems
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But yes, older mares can be problematic, but not because of their "old eggs"!
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KarynK

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I had the privilege many years ago to have Twink Allen teach me on a breeding course at the National Stud.

He came and collected us and took us on a tour of the Fertility Unit. Those of that have met him will know his sense of humour! He had a game with us on What’s That! One of the What’s that’s was a 13.2 hh small fine stallion, I guessed show pony, but it was a TB.

His mother had received damage due to a prior foaling and had become infertile. Twink got her in foal but the result was tiny due to lack of sufficient nutrition during the pregnancy, a result of the damage> But as he demonstrated to us, he had us collecting!!! He was ideal to collect semen from easy to handle and threw full sized foals!!!
 
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