Breeding myths...

[lindylou]

Very interesting, as i had a friend who used invermectin wormer on a foal some years ago, and it died shortly after, i have always been very worried about using it it since then and tend to use panacur, or 5 day panacur guard in foals, have never had a problem with that.

 

[KarynK]

Not surprised by that at all, Ivermectin toxicosis is often seen in dogs following treatment with ivermectin formulated for horses or cattle, in other words an overdose!

The drug itself is quite novel being a type of antibiotic produced from a fungus first isolated from a soil sample. So it’s not really surprising that resistance in this is reported.

Just as a note here AP has reported on research suggesting worming of the MARE after foaling and NOT a neonatal foal, Worming or any other concoction given shortly after birth can do untold damage to a foal as the stomach lining is particularly vulnerable due to it being ready to absorb colostrum.

In this example it is suspected of causing blindness in overdose on a 9 week old mule foal http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bs...xy73k.alexandra

You should always read the manufacturers instruction and be careful never to overdose any foal with any product, basically if it doesn’t say specifically on the product information about use for foals ASK before you use it and re Ivermectin specifically there is insufficient data to determine safety of its use in foals less than 4 months old!

This is really useful http://www.wormers-direct.co.uk/wormingmares.html

 

[Damien]

A serious bout of the runs is going to radically reduce the balance of the limited intestinal fluor that is present in a newly born foal anyway and can also lead to liver failure and death! For every medical expert that recomends not worming within the first 24 to 48 foal you will find one that recomends doing it. All you have to do is a quick search on google and read the reports availible, speak with a variety of specialists and you find they all sing different hymns just as is happening here.

Many breeders and studs have been routinely worming foals shortly after birth for years administered by vets without consequence. Overdosing is a completely different topic of conversation and using foal deaths and liver failure caused by overdosing doesn't in my mind support the arguement.

The discussion is as contraversial as the use of vaccinations and antibiotics on the neo-nate yet many mare owners carry out routine shots within the first hours of a foals life, whilst others argue that the colustrum provided by the mare provides all the defense mechanisms that a new born foal will need providing that the foal is nursing adequately of course. We could argue that the penetration of a needle within the first few hours of life is exposing the neo-nate to possible infection.

I don't share the opinion that diarohea in the new born foal is "nothing to worry about" and is a routine part of foal heat, as it can lead to dehydrtaion and death, not to mention the scaulding that will occur on the new borns bum. I am just relieved that its something that we have managed to erradicate through gaining a better undestanding of what chemical groups treat which strains of worm and laval stages of development. So yes Shiladair shame on me, but better finding out and changing than blatantly choosing to do nothing about it.

The reality is, that seriously over dosing any horse with any wormer can have drastic effects so can hardly be used as a reason not to worm a new born foal if administered in its correct doseage.

With regards to resistance to wormers, resistance has been found in all three chemical groups not just ivermectin bar the compound of moxidectin (to-date) which is not advised to be used in animals less than six months anyway.

Shildair...... yes had to laugh 800gs is a lot of wormer

and should have stipluated treats 800kgs of body weight anyway its telmin not bimectin that can be used to treat both mare and foal seperately using a single tube that treats 800kgs of body weight and can be used safey as part of a three year rotation program, interchanging telmin with a different chemical group wormer such as strongid, and ivermectin based wormer on a three year rotational program throughout the summer season. As always anyone in doubt should consult their own vet or contact the pharmicutical companies that produce the drugs they offer a wealth of information carried out by years of independant research (although others will probably argue that this is also a contraversial topic) LOL.
However I would think that if worming a neo-nate routinely caused deaths they would be reported to the autorities and pharmicutical companies would be forced to put warnings on the packaging as some do, such as equest and equest pramox. To each his own.

 

[teabiscuit]

thanks for your reply

the reason i asked was rumour and also my shire x tb had two colts, to the same TB father:
the first one is very TB ish and 16.1hh, the second is more to the shire side and is 17hh

but that's only one example

 

[KarynK]

I think everyone so far that has erred on the side of worming the mare is very sensible. NB in my experience a foal that scours shortly after birth has a serious problem in which case that would be a decision for a vet well versed in stud medicine, not a lay person.

If a mare has been subjected to a proper worming regime including paddock cleaning and her udders are cleaned before suckling, there can be very little likelihood of a serious worm burden in the foetus prior to birth. Personally I would not risk serious complications including blindness and brain damage by using a drug that is not recommended even by the manufacturers for use in such a young foal and I certainly would put all sorts of caveats around even remotely suggesting it on a forum like this.

If you look at the link I have provided none of the orally administered anthelmintics are recommended for use in foals under 2 weeks of age, if those companies felt there was research out their to support earlier use they would be crowing about it! Personally I would rather worm the mare to avoid foal heat scours and then worm the foal when a given product is known to be safe.

NB many chemical compounds are known to destroy intestinal flora most notably antibiotics (of which Ivermectin is one). Intestinal flora are derived solely from the environment by contact with the dam at birth and when feeding but principally by eating the dams dung from about week 3 until around 6mts (Coprophagy if you want to get technical). This is a vital process and in addition Deoxycholic acid is obtained to protect and enhance the ability of the gut to fight off viral and bacterial infections. The mare even produces compounds to encourage this process. All the more reason to worm the mare shortly after birth I would argue, and have in the back of your mind when formulating worming routines post parturition and also to consider should the mare and or foal need a course of antibiotics during this period.

If you are an experienced breeder willing to take a risk then do so, but I would not advocate it, as the products are not proven to be safe even by their makers! A very young foal’s stomach and intestinal linings are designed to be more open to ingestion of immunoglobulin’s in the colostrum, at this stage, I would not give anything orally that would interfere with that process or potentially cause great damage, since a foal only has around 18-36 hrs in which to take full advantage of those Ig’s to protect it from pathogens in it’s environment for the next 6-12 weeks. It is far more likely to die from a pathogen if its immunity is compromised in this manner. If a foal needs an injection at the direction of a suitably qualified veterinary surgeon then fair enough. To me it makes much more sense to worm the mare and avoid the risk to the foal.

Regarding overdosing, it is very easily done and more than warrants mention, since it was probably what caused the death in the foal above, and is paramount in my mind when making a decision on how and when to administer anthelmintics ( Drug orientated Wormers) to a foal especially without veterinary direction, It is so very easy for a novice or even someone without access to a weighbridge to overestimate the weight of a foal, and one at this age is more susceptible to the smallest of overdoses with chemicals, so yes it is a valid consideration in this discussion.

You cannot begin to compare in my mind the overdose to a healthy mature adult animal to the same insult presented to a vulnerable newborn, to seriously overdose an adult in the same manner would need relatively far more of the chemical than that required to cause irreversible damage to a young neo-natal newly emerged from a sterile environment.

Regarding foal heat scours as already discussed above simply worming the mare (at far less of a risk) is a perfectly viable option, to me it would be the one of choice since I can then worm the foal when it is safe to do so. If I were considering worming a very young foal then personally I would look at alternative medicines rather than chemicals at this early age.

The reason I only mentioned Ivermectin was because that it is the drug that is the topic of conversation on this thread and was the topic of conversation I was replying to.

“I would think that if worming a neo-nate routinely caused deaths they would be reported to the authorities and pharmaceutical companies”
I wouldn’t count on it, nor do they publicise the number of horses killed deliberately by overdose when developing these medicines and yes I have no doubt that some foals died for them to put that caveat on in the first place. There have been experiments surrounding equine vaccines where yearlings were euthanased simply to see how big a lump is formed under the skin when giving vaccinations, horses die to give you these “safe” products!

 

[KarynK]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for your reply

the reason i asked was rumour and also my shire x tb had two colts, to the same TB father:
the first one is very TB ish and 16.1hh, the second is more to the shire side and is 17hh

but that's only one example

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think that it's probably down to the combined genetics of the two parents rather than the myth, I am sure if you kept breeding them together you would get the same sort of variation and more different ones as well.

Only half of each parents available genes are contributed on each mating so simply put your mare might have a gene from her shire parent for a huge foal in mature height and one from the TB for a lower mature height and on each of the two matings she put only one in. of course there are all sorts of other genes at work too and factors that affect them.

As AP has already mentioned somewhere there is indication that the health and size of the womb does have an effect on adult height, and I have seen that at work, but here I think it would be genetics as one favoured the shire in type as well, fun isn't it!!!

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]

I am just relieved that its something that we have managed to erradicate through gaining a better undestanding of what chemical groups treat which strains of worm and laval stages of development. So yes Shiladair shame on me, but better finding out and changing than blatantly choosing to do nothing about it.
<font color="blue">Do you think I don't manage my horses to control parasites? If you re-read my posts, you'll find I said I didn't worm my foals...this is not synonymous. </font>

Shildair...... yes had to laugh 800gs is a lot of wormer

and should have stipluated treats 800kgs of body weight anyway its telmin not bimectin that can be used to treat both mare and foal seperately using a single tube that treats 800kgs of body weight and can be used safey as part of a three year rotation program, interchanging telmin with a different chemical group wormer such as strongid, and ivermectin based wormer on a three year rotational program throughout the summer season. As always anyone in doubt should consult their own vet or contact the pharmicutical companies that produce the drugs they offer a wealth of information carried out by years of independant research (although others will probably argue that this is also a contraversial topic) LOL.
<font color="blue"> I'm afraid I don't follow your worming 'programme', as I prefer to manage my pasture to eradicate worms, and worm strategically by using worm counts instead (and obviously treating for small redworm/bots/tapeworm spring and autumn. This, I believe is the vet recommended method, to avoid resistance where possible.
S

</font>


[/ QUOTE ]

 

[teabiscuit]

umm it's fascinating

i've had the same thing with a TB colt and filly

the filly was the first foal and is about a hand smaller than the colt (both now grown up)

but the difference in gender probably accounts for that?

 

[wishfulthinking]

Really enjoying reading this post, very informative. I too wormed mare post foaling and bypassed scours.

 

[S_N]

[ QUOTE ]
As Equest is not licensed to be given to lactating mares

[/ QUOTE ]

Just FTR, Equest it's self IS licensed for both pregnant and lactatinc mares. It is the Equest Pramox that is not.

 

[Loika]

Re: Downs Syndrome and older mares / eggs

I found your hypothesis on Down's very interesting but I am afraid it is incorrect! Sorry!

Basically an egg and sperm contain half the DNA required to form a whole new being. Both of these cells would be subject to attack by the immune system because of this. Sperm is developed and 'nannied' in the testes prior to ejeculation by specialist cells. Eggs are kept in an semi developed state containing a full set of chromosomes until they are stimulated by FSH to grow and be released at ovulation. At this point meisos occurs, splitting the genome into two halves. One half is disguarded and the other is encased in the neucleous. Age causes the chromosomes to get "sticky" and they fail to separate completely.

Down's Syndrome is technically called trisomey 21 as it contains all or part of chromosome 21 as well as a complete set, so there are three Chr.21. As any mammal ages (mammalian geneticists so no idea about other animals!) fertility reduces.

Sperm is usually the main cause of defects because of the constand rounds of meitosis and meiocis, increases the chances / probability of mutations in a vunreable area. Not all mutations are bad, there is a lot of "dead" space on the chromosomes, not to mention the "wobble" positions in codons but that is all a bit in depth.

Apologises for the spelling, but I hope that makes sense!

 

[ISADORA]

There is un -research proven evidence that embryo foals are not so robust.

 

[KenRehill]

I've got five in my barn that are robust enough to argue with you!

 

[oln]

great thread. what more can i say?

 

[KarynK]

Feedback on the Ivermectin experiment.

Wormed the mare 6 hrs after foaling, with Eraquell (ivermectin 1.87% w/w ivermectin ) Sorry AP but they are on offer at £4.85 and I had one spare!!!
The mare is coming into season today having given birth on 25th March, and

NO SIGN OF THE RUNS IN THE FOAL!!!! So pink powder on standby remains in the box and foaling box has been restocked with Eqvalan for next mare!

 

[michaelj]

I dont intend on breeding, but if we ever put a mare into foal... Ill read this!

 

[Touchwood]

Just another to add - this is the first year we have wormed the mare immediately after foaling and we also avoided scours! Shall definately be continuing - nothing worse for both humans and foals than horrid runny bums!

 

[Petethehunt]

Thanks for a great thread.

A good tip for foals with scours, to stop the burned bums, squirt baby oil over the bum and the swishing of the tail will evenly distribute it all. Really works, no need to wash.

Better still, worm the mare just after she has foaled!!

 

[pony_junkie]

Regarding the worms and scouring...........
I dosed my ponies last year one week before their due dates with Eqvalan Duo and none of the foals scoured at all.
I did it so that the mare and foal were clear at birth and the foal would then not need dosing which would allow good gut flora to establish before giving them any chemical wormer.
Is this a good way of doing them both?
Can it do any harm at this late stage of pregnancy.
I made sure I used a wormer suitable for both a mare in foal and one sucking a foal.

 

[DaniiDiamond]

Inbreeding would never deform a foal.
Like bovines, some horses have genes that make muscle build up quickly. HYPP h/h horses for example. So if you bred say a brother and a sister with a quick muscle build up gene, that gene would be amplified into the foal.
Complicated but easy to understand.
Example:
HYPP h/h (positive) horse -

HYPP n/n (negetive) horse -

I don't promote HYPP horses but the muscle difference is astounding.
That's what you get from line bred horses.

Just a piont that inbreeding isn't as bad as people make it out too be.

 

[AndyPandy]

Just had to add another one... as now we're into the new stud season, I've heard this bandied around a fair few times:

Myth: A stallion who has covered naturally cannot be trained to collect using a dummy mare and AV.

Truth: 99% of stallions can be trained (or retrained) to collect in this manner. Those that can't are usually those with injuries cause them pain when they've mounted, meaning they will not ejaculate. Bute, or ground collection is normally the best option for these boys.

Dummy training is not about making the stallion believe that the dummy is a real mare (necks, ears, heads, tails etc. are a total waste of time), or about conning him onto getting on because he thinks he's on the mare... Stallions are not stupid

They get onto the dummy because they learn that by getting onto this silly lump of metal, foam, and leather, that they get to ejaculate... Lucky them!

 

[mygeorge]

Its great to read some sensible and informed posts on breeding. I could never get my head round the reabsorbed embryo thing as it sounds ridiculous to me and was not mentioned in my biology degree. Thanks AndyPandy. I'm going to have another go with my older maiden mare this time who had mating induced endometritis/reduced uterine clearing last year. Wish me luck.

 

[lillith]

I know the post was a while back but I saw a BCS of 5-7 reccomended for a broodmare on the is that on the 0-9 scale or 1-10? cos 7 seems a little high to me, fat mares are harder to get in foal.

 

[jenny_adams]

Thanks for letting us know.

 

[MadArabLady]

"It is dangerous for a menstruating woman to be in the presence of a stallion

There is no reason why this should be the case, and no evidence to support the hypothesis. It is likely to be a relic of the male-dominated breeding set-ups of the late 19th and early 20th century."

I've had my man since he was born in 1991. There are times when it is dangerous for anyone to be around him, but thats because we sometimes get complacent around him! I have never avoided him at "that time of the month" but certainly his attitude changed - probably because I was evil when I has stomach ache and he didn't want a smack lol

 

[kerilli]

re: first foals being smaller.
my first mare, 16.3 idxtb, big roomy mare, had had 1 foal when i bought her, he got to 17.2. i bred from her years later, filly made 15.3. next two colts made 17.3 again. so, definitely not a small first foal for that one.

 

[FoalLover]

We have done lots of ET and never found any of our foals to suffer at all from any problems. The ET and non ET foals have been just as robust as each other. In fact we presently have one ET stallion who has qualified for 2 classes at HOYS this week and also have another homebred gelding who is not ET and of the same age and has qualified for 2 classes. Genetics is very important in compeition horses but so is management.

 

[merlyn26]

[ QUOTE ]
"It is dangerous for a menstruating woman to be in the presence of a stallion

There is no reason why this should be the case, and no evidence to support the hypothesis. It is likely to be a relic of the male-dominated breeding set-ups of the late 19th and early 20th century."

I've had my man since he was born in 1991. There are times when it is dangerous for anyone to be around him, but thats because we sometimes get complacent around him! I have never avoided him at "that time of the month" but certainly his attitude changed - probably because I was evil when I has stomach ache and he didn't want a smack lol

[/ QUOTE ]

ive got two stallions and one of them is a poppet every day of the year! the other is generally a pain in the backside most of the time - but sometimes (approx once a month) he can be really really bad for a few days on the trot and everytime he is i think to myself my god whats up with him this week - and then i twig - i am just a few days from the dreaded time of the month! - co-incidence??? i would have always argued that stallions where no different with women to men as every stallion i have dealt with until my grumpy boy have all been fine - but this one definately is picking up on something - but i have to say its not actually when im "on" but a few days before???? - but perhaps it is just the pmt

 

[Blacklist]

At last someone with some breeding gumption. Bravo

 

[pointersrus]

Re Menstruating women around stallions

I have a 3yo colt who is the first entire that I have had any experience with so I am just learning from day to day.

He has covered and is well aware of the "girls" on the yard but I definately have not had any interest of any kind from him when either myself or any other women who are menstruating are handling him, in fact he is always more interested in smelling the shovel/wheelbarrow/brushes or any other item that may have been near a mare in season or not.

re ivermectin based wormer

I routinely worm a newly foaled mare within 12 hours of foaling with an Ivermectin based wormer and have not had foal scours which always seem to coincide with a foal heat since doing this - seems to work for me!