Breeding myths...

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
I have enjoyed this thread... I have found very informative! I love the bit about the 3000 balls, a great way to explain things!!

I have however been unable to contibrute to the thread on a sensible level because I am still finding myself highly amused that anyone would think...

[ QUOTE ]
I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!

[/ QUOTE ]

This comment has given me the giggles, everytime I have read it!!

**HG goes back to the naughty corner... until she can control herself**

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - I'd better join you in the naughty corner HG, cos I'm still giggling at this as well!

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
Just wanted to say great thread, AP - I seem to learn something new and important every time you post on here!

[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with this. How lucky are we all to have someone with such a wealth of knowledge on the horse breeding front. It's perfectly acceptable to having differing opinions or trying to make sense of something where the answer alludes you, but to have someone here who knows these answers surely means that we are all pretty privileged and should be thankful to have our very own guru?

Andy writes in a very clear and concise manner - because of this, I find it makes his posts very easy to follow and understand. If anyone doesn't understand something then they simply need to ask him to explain further and I am sure that Andy would be more than happy to break it down.

Please don't discourage these clever bods from coming on here because many of us do appreciate them and would miss out on valuable new knowledge if they were to stop contributing to this site.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Well said Tia

 

[AndyPandy]

Thank you Tia

 

[Gamgee]

Hi. I'm usually a luker, having been scared off in other parts of this forum, but I had to say that this thread contains some excellent information. Thank you very much AndyPandy! Though I am confused as to why there is the potential for you may have been discouraged? I don't expect an answer, as a relative small fry on here, but could not resist adding my thoughts. I hope that is not out of line for me to do so.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Its only that some people don't like the fact that AP has a higher level of vocabulary than others and express their views that he isn't a very good teacher etc etc... but as he isn't a teacher, it doesn't really matter... also AP isn't the sort of person to be so easily discouraged, he is very passionate about his work and a very good source of information and very easy to talk to

Welcome to the forum btw

 

[S_N]

Just thought of one (inspired by a post elsewhere

I'm such a theaf

)

Maiden mares tend to foal before 340 days - true or false? I know this is kind of tied into the due date thingy, but also it isn't.... IME it can go either way (obviously), I've just never kept records of these things.... I should have done with all my foalings. Though I am inclined to think it may well be true.....?

 

[Fahrenheit]

[ QUOTE ]
the due date thingy

[/ QUOTE ]

ETA... ETA... *giggles*

 

[Damien]

choosing not to worm any animal during the first year of its life is putting an aninmals health at high risk if you ask me,

especially youngstock.

Faecal counts will not reveal encysted worm burden or tape burden, only blood testing can reveal the level of encysted worm and tape.

Careful managment of the mare pre-foaling with a chemical group that treats for threadworm and roundworm large and small will radically reduce scouring, backed up with worming the foal with an ivermectin based wormer within 24/48 hours of birth for good measure.

Like many I had always believed that scouring just co-incided with mares foalie heat but research has shown that it is most likely caused by thread worm. Having now opted for a pre-foaling worm program we have totally erradicated scouring of foals the last two years - yahay no more vaseline and struggling foals! just try it!

I'm pretty sure that I also read a report somewhere that foals can be born with pre-existing worm burdens, as eggs can migrate to un unborn foal through the placenta within the mare, another reason for possible scouring.

Its always worth while using equest or a five day panacur gaurd treatment pre-foaling say in february to erradicate any encysted worm burden that the mare may carry. Panacur 5 day gaurd and equest being the only two wormers availible in the uk that can be safely used on pregnant mares that treat successfully without resistance for encysted worm and early larval stages of cyathathomes.

As Equest is not licensed to be given to lactating mares you will not be presented with the opportunity to do so again until your foal has been weaned so be sure the mare is treated. If the mare has not been previously treated with equest or panacur gaurd in the last 12 months then its perhaps safer to use panacur 5 day gaurd as side efffects have been noted in horses with an encysted worm burden caused by the migration of the worms leaving the gut, symptoms such as skin irriations, colic, scouring etc.

This treatment should then be followed post foaling with a wormer such as equimax that contains the chemical group that eliminates tape and all other known species (with the exception of encysted round worm) six weeks after your encysted worm treatment.

For mares and foals all ivermectin based wormers that can be used safely to treat mares and foals every six weeks throughout the grazing period is Bimectin as it comes in an 800g tube to treat both mare and foal seperately. However it is advisable to switch to a second chemical group wormer in year two as is found in strongid.

General rule of thumb for us, is early spring and autum (after weaning) treat mare with equest, followed by equimax six weeks later, worming throughout summer with an ivermectin based wormer of mare and foal every six weeks and you can't go wrong.

 

[ColouredFan]

so much great info on here, excellent post Andy Pandy.

Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on a mares first foal being smaller to any subsequent foals? Just something i had heard but I dont know if it is actually true?

Thanks in advance

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
choosing not to worm any animal during the first year of its life is putting an aninmals health at high risk if you ask me,

especially youngstock.

<font color="blue">That's me - I embrace risk.

</font>

Faecal counts will not reveal encysted worm burden or tape burden, only blood testing can reveal the level of encysted worm and tape.
<font color="blue"> True </font>

Careful managment of the mare pre-foaling with a chemical group that treats for threadworm and roundworm large and small will radically reduce scouring, backed up with worming the foal with an ivermectin based wormer within 24/48 hours of birth for good measure.
<font color="blue"> Management for parasites does not equate directly with worming. </font>
Like many I had always believed that scouring just co-incided with mares foalie heat but research has shown that it is most likely caused by thread worm. Having now opted for a pre-foaling worm program we have totally erradicated scouring of foals the last two years - yahay no more vaseline and struggling foals! just try it!
<font color="blue">I thought everybody always had wormed and/or managed their broodmares pre-foaling, to reduce/eliminate parasites. I'm a bit shocked you weren't doing that originally - very irresponsible, if you ask me. </font>
I'm pretty sure that I also read a report somewhere that foals can be born with pre-existing worm burdens, as eggs can migrate to un unborn foal through the placenta within the mare, another reason for possible scouring.
<font color="blue"> True, but only if the mare has worms. </font>
Its always worth while using equest or a five day panacur gaurd treatment pre-foaling say in february to erradicate any encysted worm burden that the mare may carry. Panacur 5 day gaurd and equest being the only two wormers availible in the uk that can be safely used on pregnant mares that treat successfully without resistance for encysted worm and early larval stages of cyathathomes.
<font color="blue"> Agreed

</font>
As Equest is not licensed to be given to lactating mares you will not be presented with the opportunity to do so again until your foal has been weaned so be sure the mare is treated. If the mare has not been previously treated with equest or panacur gaurd in the last 12 months then its perhaps safer to use panacur 5 day gaurd as side efffects have been noted in horses with an encysted worm burden caused by the migration of the worms leaving the gut, symptoms such as skin irriations, colic, scouring etc.
<font color="blue">Is this last paragraph advice to me? Thanks, but don't worry - I don't have any foals or weanlings now ....(they all died through parasite burdens

)
</font>

This treatment should then be followed post foaling with a wormer such as equimax that contains the chemical group that eliminates tape and all other known species (with the exception of encysted round worm) six weeks after your encysted worm treatment.
<font color="blue"> I am happy to be corrected, but did not believe roundworm could be 'encysted'...perhaps you meant small redworm? </font>
For mares and foals all ivermectin based wormers that can be used safely to treat mares and foals every six weeks throughout the grazing period is Bimectin as it comes in an 800g tube to treat both mare and foal seperately. However it is advisable to switch to a second chemical group wormer in year two as is found in strongid.
<font color="blue"> 800g seems like a lot of wormer...I'm impressed that you manage to get them to take it. Or perhaps you meant sufficient wormer for 800kg of bodyweight - in which case it is worth noting that this may be far too much for some horses/not enough for others - weigh before you worm! </font>
General rule of thumb for us, is early spring and autum (after weaning) treat mare with equest, followed by equimax six weeks later, worming throughout summer with an ivermectin based wormer of mare and foal every six weeks and you can't go wrong.
<font color="blue"> Actually, Panacur 5 day is more effective regarding encysted small redworm, and I believe that some resistance to ivermectin has been found in studs (abroad if memory serves). </font>


[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> S

</font>

 

[Cop-Pop]

What a great post - have just spent my lunch hour reading it trying to understand the sciencey bits

S - 5 day guard is great but does anyone know how to get their horse to eat feed with it in..?

When I worked at the stud they didn't worm their mares - they were blood tested twice a year and had worm counts done every 3 - 6 months and wormed if requried, otherwise they were left alone.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
S - 5 day guard is great but does anyone know how to get their horse to eat feed with it in..?


[/ QUOTE ]

Good question

I've found most horses won't touch their feed if it's got Panacur Guard 5 day anywhere near it, especially the flavoured stuff. I have had to resort to orally syringing it...although it is a bit too liquid so challenging to syringe too. I have thickened it with icing sugar, etc in the past to make it easier.
Most vets will happily supply you with an oral syringe.
Another point is that if you have a largish horse, you need to buy two bottles to get the correct dosage.
S

 

[AndyPandy]

I must post a quick thank you to Jos Mottershead of Equine Reproduction LLC, OK, USA for the basis for the myths thread; his article on breeding myths was the inspiration here and I have not given them due credit.

For loads of high quality breeding information, visit their website:

http://www.equine-reproduction.com

 

[mike1210]

Ref: foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into oestrous.

The transfer of Strongyloides westeri eggs through the mares milk is a possibility but there is no concrete evidence that this is the case, it is something that occurs but interestingly foals that are bottle fed still have a high incidence of going slightly loose behind during the same period whilst the mare is returning to cyclicity.

Interestingly your view about ivermectin i think would be frowned upon by alot of people, i say that due to the known ability of this class of anthelmintics causing hepatotoxicity in animals with chronic fibrosing hepatitis. The neonate liver when born is far from running at 100% due the fact that whilst in utero a major aspect of the maternal - foetal exchange across the epitheliotropic junction at the placenta is to exchange waste materials and gases from the foal, these substances being dealt with by the mother. It would therefore be incorrect to assume that once there is a shift in majority of detoxification from the mares liver over to the foals that the foals liver is going to be functioning anywhere near as efficiently as the mares.

Therefore i would seriously advise against administering ivermectin / avermection based drugs to neonates unless you intend on damaging their livers and or possible upsetting the little natural intestinal flora that they do have during the first few days of life, and tipping the balance into causing an overgrowth of a potentially pathogenic bacteria that would be there in low numbers, namely salmonella, e.coli, enterobacter etc and causing an enterocolitis with the possible added on bonus of septicaemia kicking in.

Foal heat scours are something that all foals get and should not be viewed as something to worry about, unless the foal appears off colour itself. In light of the fact that many foals get foal heat scours when there are not even on a mare and are hand reared with milk replacer demonstrates the fact that foal heat scour is most likely the foals digestive system settling into the pathogens which it is coming across.

If you want to eliminate S.westeri being transferred to the foal worm the mare with an anthelmintic that is licensed for use in the pregnant mare and is effective against this helminth, during the 10th month of gestation.

 

[springfallstud]

Thanks Mike, very interesting to read!!!

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Mike, very interesting to read!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, thanks, and to AP for this thread.
S

 

[teabiscuit]

May I ask, how likely is a mare's first foal to be born (and mature) smaller than subsequent foals?

sorry if this has been covered already, I didn't see it

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore i would seriously advise against administering ivermectin / avermection based drugs to neonates unless you intend on damaging their livers and or possible upsetting the little natural intestinal flora that they do have during the first few days of life

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I certainly wouldn't recommend giving ivermectin to a neonate - as I mentioned earlier, it's easy to give them serious poisoning, causing liver damage, blindness and many other problems (Nasty case report by Plummer et al, 2006 for those who want to know more).

What I suggested was giving the wormer to the MARE within 12-24 hours of the foal being born. The transfer of ivermectin through milk is, I believe, very low (less than 1ng/ml in equines). Tia on this forum has used the system, and had great results. I also suggested that you consult your vet or supplier before giving any wormer.

Furthermore, I suggested the use of Eqvalan, an ivermectin based wormer, and I quote from the literature supplied with the wormer: EQVALAN can safely be used during all stages of pregnancy and in breeding stallions, and they also recommend worming young foals every 6 weeks.

I think it's a nice thing if scours can be prevented.

 

[KarynK]

Tip if you have more than one horse, just buy the 1 or 5 ltr panacur bulk buy, its the same as the guard but much cheaper and dose for 5 days as per bodyweight, either keep back an old worming syringe or get a large flushing syringe off your vet or a local farming store and dose away!!!

 

[KarynK]

[ QUOTE ]
Ref: foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into oestrous.

The transfer of Strongyloides westeri eggs through the mares milk is a possibility but there is no concrete evidence that this is the case, it is something that occurs but interestingly foals that are bottle fed still have a high incidence of going slightly loose behind during the same period whilst the mare is returning to cyclicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst lactation is the primary source of infestation threadworms are more than capable of surviving in the environment and penetrate the skin as a 3rd stage larvae, this enviroment is shared by bottle fed foals as well. There is also some evidence to suggest pre natal infiltration of the placenta.

R. H. Johnston, L. D. Kamstra and P. H. Kohler 2008 found no
significant difference in the compsition of mares milk during the Foaling Heat that would explain scours in the foal. If you think about it logically all those parisites are sitting around waiting for something to appear that is not immune to them, they are not going to waist a minute in their drive to reproduce, that cycle happens to coincide with the foaling heat.

Personally having had my last foal scour quite badly and have her backside burnt not to mention the possibility of internal damage and having to bottle feed her scour powders I would not just leave it! Especially as I know understand that dosing the mare with a safe product would save that experience.

 

[Navalgem]

My maiden TB mare was due to foal (calculated from insemination) on the 31st July, she did foal that night, foal being born on 1st August as it was 4.30 am, I'm guessing that would be her 340th day then? 341 if we're being pedantic

 

[AndyPandy]

Good post Karyn, thank you

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Tip if you have more than one horse, just buy the 1 or 5 ltr panacur bulk buy, its the same as the guard but much cheaper and dose for 5 days as per bodyweight, either keep back an old worming syringe or get a large flushing syringe off your vet or a local farming store and dose away!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

To add to your tip - if anyone does bulk buy Panacur, do make sure you ask what the expiry date is first. It would be grim to buy 5ltrs only to have it go out of date before you finished it.
S

 

[KarynK]

Sorry Teabuscuit Have tried to post this twice and no luck so I'll try again.

Keep photographic records of the foals stood in a similar position next to the dam at 2 days old. I find this really useful in comparing type height and conformation, then carry on with pictures at regular intervals. I have found no difference in 1 &amp; 2 from my TB mare, different sires but similar type and height, 1&amp;2 aged 5 and 3 respectively - little difference in mature height though 2 was quicker to get there.

 

[KarynK]

Heres one for you to get your teeth into AP!

I was informed when I imported semen from Canada that in cattle specifically Angus, which is what they bred as well as horses, you were more likely to get a male than a female when using frozen!

I got what I wanted a filly!!!!

 

[FRESHMAN]

WOW AP that was absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, We HHO are so lucky to have people like yourself give so much help. Personally, I couldnt tear myself away from this thread. I vote it to be the best ever. You should get an award.

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
I was informed when I imported semen from Canada that in cattle specifically Angus, which is what they bred as well as horses, you were more likely to get a male than a female when using frozen!

[/ QUOTE ]

Right... that's an interesting one. Firstly, only knowing one result (your filly), it's tough to say this is an accurate statement, however, here are my ideas:

1) Your mare was bred 6-12 hours before ovulation, as opposed to 0-6 hours before ovulation. Going by the understanding that male sperm go fast and die quick, and female sperm go slow and and longer lived... this might mean that, because of the reduced in-utero lifespan of frozen-thawed sperm, that by the time ovulation occured, more female (X-carrying) sperm were alive, than male ones, thus increasing the chance of getting a filly. Although, obviously this doesn't explain why they said that "all sperm from Canada..."

2) Something about the different volume of genetic material within the sperm cell has a protective effect during the particular freezing process used in the majority of farms and studs in Canada. It's a very vague idea; and probably wouldn't hold up to scientific investigation.

3) They don't centrifuge the semen very well, and the slightly heavier X-carrying sperm cells get harvested more than the lighter Y-carrying sperm. Again - pretty unlikely, but I wouldn't like to say that it was impossible.

4) A feminist scientist has developed a boy-sperm-killing solution which she slips into every cattle and horse extender in Canada

5) Someone started spreading the rumour, and every owner that has a filly born comes online and tells their friends - "oh my god, I imported semen from Canada, and they said I'd be more likely to get a girl, and I did! WOW!"... whereas the people who get colts think "oh well, just a rumour" and forget about it

If someone could show me sex-based stats on foals born from frozen semen conceptions from all over the world (including Canada), then we might be able to formulate a better answer; but to be honest, I'd say it's a 50/50 chance, and you were lucky

 

[Fahrenheit]

[ QUOTE ]
4) A feminist scientist has developed a boy-sperm-killing solution which she slips into every cattle and horse extender in Canada

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol...

 

[KarynK]

Can narrow it down some

1) She was inseminated 4 hrs prior to ovulation so that ones out.

2) Possibility the straws I had were the single breeding dose in one straw (convenient ones) !

4) Highly likely if you ask an American, they think all Canadians are strange, look at Jim Carey!

5) Another possible win win marketing!

It would be good if we could get some sex based stats period as I think it might be interesting to see if the 50/50 is affected? I know my sister did research when she ran the early Siberian Husky records in the late 70’s, of all the litters in a given year they evened out as a breed 50/50 Male Female.