Breeding - things to consider?

[Michen]

I've known bitches who I've considered a bit weak, really come out of themselves after a litter. Anecdotal and probably sounds old fashioned, but sometimes motherhood can bring out a bit of assertiveness.

That’s probably her only very slight fault, she can be a little sensitive. Not remotely so when working though where she’s tough as anything, just a slight nervous edge with people she doesn’t know (though again, never when working) and I have to be very careful how I even tell her to go on her bed so as not to be accusing her of wrongdoing ?

 

[deb_l222]

In my opinion, two years old is way too young to be breeding. Some will say that’s poppycock but just because it’s been done before doesn’t make it right.

At two years old, she’s not fully grown and developed herself yet and the stress and strain of sustaining and raising puppies could cause her long term health problems. Please don’t rush and wait another couple of years.

As for docking. Only you have to live with yourself if you have that procedure done. There are plenty of working dogs out there that haven’t been docked that don’t mutilate their tails every five minutes.

I agree with Druid above about IOHC. I don’t have anything to do with puppies but there is a ridiculous amount of adult springers that have passed through rescue with IOHC. Some only diagnosed when the joint has completely shattered under exercise.

 

[Michen]

In my opinion, two years old is way too young to be breeding. Some will say that’s poppycock but just because it’s been done before doesn’t make it right.

At two years old, she’s not fully grown and developed herself yet and the stress and strain of sustaining and raising puppies could cause her long term health problems. Please don’t rush and wait another couple of years.

As for docking. Only you have to live with yourself if you have that procedure done. There are plenty of working dogs out there that haven’t been docked that don’t mutilate their tails every five minutes.

I agree with Druid above about IOHC. I don’t have anything to do with puppies but there is a ridiculous amount of adult springers that have passed through rescue with IOHC. Some only diagnosed when the joint has completely shattered under exercise.

Oh that’s interesting. When I spoke to breeder friend she said 2 years was ideal and that nearing 5 was a little old for a first litter, in reference to her having done it herself with one that age and regretting it.

So many differing opinions I guess!

 

[Michen]

Ps the kind of homes I want for her pups, and that are lined up, won’t have an undocked working spaniel and I can quite see why!

 

[MrsMozart]

Be prepared for many nights sleeping on the sofa / in an armchair when due date is close. We used to do the last two weeks. And to have no life during that period outside the house.

It's both amazingly wonderful and absolutely heartbreaking.

 

[Clodagh]

I agree about the docking, you limit the homes they can have without it.
Southern Canine Imaging I have heard good things about, and I think they use heavy sedation.
I think 2 is a bit young and 5 a bit older for a first litter, not that I have ever bred it’s just MO.

 

[Clodagh]

I’d leave dew claws on though I think, from what I’ve heard about them. Would be interested what Druid thinks about that?

 

[Michen]

Am going to chat with my vet re age, I'm doubtful the stars will align for her next season anyway as she is likely to come in whilst I'm in Africa.

Going to crack on with the checks, just spoke to Marilyn and she's booked in sat for hips and elbows. Turnaround time 3 weeks from BVA. Should have waited for DNA and eyes first so could be a waste of money but it's not necessarily a bad thing to know how they are.

Shock horror her breeders didn't have her parents done

 

[Clodagh]

Shock horror her breeders didn't have her parents done

Well at least you are doing the responsible thing. Having seen friends have a lab pts at 12 months as his hips were so bad it’s always a deal breaker for me.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that you should be prepared to take any of the pups back throughout their lives, or at least help rehoming. The main reason I stopped breeding GSDs was because I felt I would struggle to take back should the need arise . As it happened one did need to be rehomed due to owners health and I was luckily able to find him a new home which he went to straight from his old one, but in that instance I had time to do that, it's not always like that.

With regard to age, I think 2 is about right for a first litter, and I agree anything over 5 is probably too old for a maiden bitch.

 

[Michen]

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that you should be prepared to take any of the pups back throughout their lives, or at least help rehoming. The main reason I stopped breeding GSDs was because I felt I would struggle to take back should the need arise . As it happened one did need to be rehomed due to owners health and I was luckily able to find him a new home which he went to straight from his old one, but in that instance I had time to do that, it's not always like that.

With regard to age, I think 2 is about right for a first litter, and I agree anything over 5 is probably too old for a maiden bitch.

Yes agree, that's why I want to have all/most pups accounted for before breeding. I thought I had 8 potential homes lined up but having posted on facebook looking for a stud there's now many more from people I know who'd love one.

Not that it's a given things can't go wrong, but it means I can pick the kind of homes they go to to ensure best chance of success.

 

[Michen]

FFS- it's imposible to get her eyes done- no one's doing them. Best I could get was March!

 

[Michen]

Druid I am really struggling to find any number of stud dogs that have had hips and elbows done- what am I missing?

Doesn't seem common at all

 

[palo1]

If it is any help at all, I have previously insured with Agria and they have been excellent to deal with so if you wanted to have breeder insurance I think they are pretty good. A friend of mine that breeds whippets has also used them and found them pretty good. Exciting project!!

 

[druid]

Druid I am really struggling to find any number of stud dogs that have had hips and elbows done- what am I missing?

Doesn't seem common at all

It won't be an easy task, they are not ten a penny. Also, remember that not all dogs results show on the KC. If they were done under IKC (like mine) or done with the ANKC Australia scheme they don't show either so you'd have to ask for results. If you want to send me a PM I can give you a list of tested dogs I know of, and let you know whether any of the untested dogs you are considering have known health issues in their pedigrees.

 

[Michen]

It won't be an easy task, they are not ten a penny. Also, remember that not all dogs results show on the KC. If they were done under IKC (like mine) or done with the ANKC Australia scheme they don't show either so you'd have to ask for results. If you want to send me a PM I can give you a list of tested dogs I know of, and let you know whether any of the untested dogs you are considering have known health issues in their pedigrees.

I guess then Ben’s comments were fair enough, that it’s not the norm.

That’s really kind thanks I’ll PM you the one I’m looking at in particular. Appreciated!

 

[Michen]

If it is any help at all, I have previously insured with Agria and they have been excellent to deal with so if you wanted to have breeder insurance I think they are pretty good. A friend of mine that breeds whippets has also used them and found them pretty good. Exciting project!!

Thank you I will definitely do that!

 

[MrsMozart]

Don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that you should be prepared to take any of the pups back throughout their lives, or at least help rehoming. The main reason I stopped breeding GSDs was because I felt I would struggle to take back should the need arise . As it happened one did need to be rehomed due to owners health and I was luckily able to find him a new home which he went to straight from his old one, but in that instance I had time to do that, it's not always like that.

With regard to age, I think 2 is about right for a first litter, and I agree anything over 5 is probably too old for a maiden bitch.

We had this in the agreement. Once bred then I considered that they were ultimately my responsibility. I know not all will agree but that was my view.

 

[palo1]

We had this in the agreement. Once bred then I considered that they were ultimately my responsibility. I know not all will agree but that was my view.

My lad's breeder also made this agreement - to have any of the puppies back. I was a bit huffy about it initially, having never had to rehome any of my animals but on reflection I realised it was actually a wonderful insurance policy for my lad. It is a fair thing to agree to potentially have all of a litter back but I guess that rarely, if ever happens!

 

[druid]

I guess then Ben’s comments were fair enough, that it’s not the norm.

That’s really kind thanks I’ll PM you the one I’m looking at in particular. Appreciated!

Maybe we have crossed wires on this - I took your meaning to be that Ben was suggesting you shouldn't bother checking her hips or elbows.

 

[P3LH]

That is the main reason I have 99.9% decided not to breed my bitch. I could not bear to lose her for the sake of a litter.
Good luck whatever you decide to do. Some great advice from very experienced people on here already and you certainly sound to be going about it all the right way.

This was why we didn’t take a litter and bought another pup in from similar breeding too.

I think it is really important to be doom and gloom an think of worst case scenario when it comes to breeding. That way - when it hopefully doesn’t go so badly, all is well.

Prepare a contingency for anything and everything, whether this is financial or people/support wise for hand reading a litter in worst case scenario.

Id also be impossible to please in terms of criteria for new owners too.

Probably preaching to the choir but really study lines behind all dogs involved, try and get to know them if you don’t already, inside out. It’s the only way to really critically assess any weakness, whether physical or mental, in both involved parties to ensure the soundest and almost steadfast pups. Be a pedigree/family tree nerd.

 

[P3LH]

Also one thing to ask did you find your bitches temperament changed having had a litter- those who have bred?

I have heard it can but not sure if that’s hearsay. I’d hate for her character to be altered in any way.

Depends on the bitch. My bitch is really hard work, as was her dam - who dramatically improved and mellowed/steadied after a litter. I’ve known a few, like CC, who appear to come into their own after reading a litter. I’ve also known some who have become neurotic basket cases too though!

 

[SusieT]

'FFS- it's imposible to get her eyes done- no one's doing them. Best I could get was March!' Breeding is not a rush game so only booking her health tests a month in advance of her next season is likely to result in not getting them done. Vets are busy - Covid slows everything down. March is only 3 months away...

And the reason studs don't have them will be down the fact that so many people brush aside the health concerns in aid of getting 'any' dog bred to have cute puppies - so it is great that you are doing the tests and more people should be.

 

[Michen]

'FFS- it's imposible to get her eyes done- no one's doing them. Best I could get was March!' Breeding is not a rush game so only booking her health tests a month in advance of her next season is likely to result in not getting them done. Vets are busy - Covid slows everything down. March is only 3 months away...

I am pretty good at getting things done when I put my mind to it- tend to hustle

I actually managed to get in at a clinic on Monday, just before I get on a plane to leave the country for a month and a slot with South canine imaging Saturday.

That's not to say she won't come in season whilst I'm away, but it gives the stars a chance to align!

 

[Thistle]

FFS- it's imposible to get her eyes done- no one's doing them. Best I could get was March!

This is a good group https://www.facebook.com/groups/170959846274011, well done for getting a last minute appt. I've just been struggling to get the annual test booked for my stud dog and a potential breeding bitch lab but have found one in early Feb and have a place booked.

 

[RHM]

Your bitch is gorgeous! I bred my working cocker (boy) and it was very rewarding. I waved the stud fee as I wanted one of his babies instead. As others have mentioned, very unlikely that your insurance will cover breeding costs. We had a massive litter of 12 pups and unfortunately lost one of them.
Good luck getting your health checks done in time! The Bitch we used just had eyes and elbows checked I think. Don’t think hip problems are particularly common in spaniels.

 

[satinbaze]

Just for interest her is the 2018 list of average hip scores for various breeds. It makes interesting reading especially when considering the number scored v popularity of a breed.
https://www.bva.co.uk/media/2796/chs-hip-breed-stats-2018.pdf

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Interesting. A friend of mine had a Golden retriever whose hip scores were 0/0. Gorgeous dog who was intended to be a stud dog but his first litter threw up a 'wet' puppy so he was rehomed as a pet dog only. Such a shame for the breed. He made a fabulous agility dog rivalling collies for speed and stayed sound into old age.

 

[BallyJ]

Following with interest as we have a lab we'd like to breed from - would be a maiden at 3. Solely for the purpose of keeping a Pup!

Finding this thread very interesting!

 

[AmyMay]

Interesting. A friend of mine had a Golden retriever whose hip scores were 0/0. Gorgeous dog who was intended to be a stud dog but his first litter threw up a 'wet' puppy so he was rehomed as a pet dog only. Such a shame for the breed. He made a fabulous agility dog rivalling collies for speed and stayed sound into old age.

What’s a ‘wet’ puppy?