Breeds for the Average Rider

[1Lucie]

Bit of a can of worms... i would class myself as an average rider. I'm my definition i can walk, trot, canter, gallop, hack, jump a small course of jumps and a basic dressage test on non fairly quiet non riding school pony.

I have found older cobs, conemaras and irish sports horses to be the quieter end of the scale. However, u cant genalise as my friend has a very quiet 12yr old tb whose an absolute angel!

 

[JFTDWS]

So, in short, I don't think there's any such thing as a breed/type suitable for a novice/average rider . . . except perhaps a rocking horse.

Or one of these?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Or one of these?

I see that you have found my perfect neddy.

I wonder how many pennies he will cost? I'd better start saving.

 

[Marydoll]

I would class myself as an average rider, ive ridden for years, i am educated to stage 3 and have backed and/or brought on youngsters with help.
I compete at intro level but can readily jump at a metre track sj or xc
As for schooling, i love it, but shoulder in, leg yield etc should be part of any riders education,and they should be part and parcel of every horses schooling repertoire to aid suppleness and flexibility.
I am able to sit a spook, buck, rear etc but would prefer not to ( getting on a bit )
I can usually get a reasonable tune out of most horses i sit on, and sometimes a really good tune.
On my stages i was the person given the "quirky" ones to ride, que a fat cob doing handstands round the arena in my stage 2 , but saw it through only for it to be removed as unsuitable for that level , cheers !! After i sat its crap for 30 mins
To me an average rider should be able to sit on a reasonibly schooled horse and ride it in the arena, on the field and over a fence safely and in control.

 

[JFTDWS]

I see that you have found my perfect neddy.

I wonder how many pennies he will cost? I'd better start saving.

you weren't hoping to jump it, were you?

Do they come in different colours? My perfect horse is black and has a leg at each corner

 

[Littlelegs]

You'd have to define average first, which I'd class as wheels description. Doesn't mean you have to do it but you should have the basics in place to be able to if you please. Therefore buy whichever type/ breed you want. If average means able to canter a plod in an arena, then individual temperament is more important.
Can't quote on phone but also Pmsl at what jftd said about fools

 

[Marydoll]

Or one of these?

Oooh shiny , i prefer legs on mine though

 

[Orangehorse]

I did point out in my original post that there are angels of any breed, including TB, cobs, Highland, etc. etc.

Still, if you think about it, it is suprising that no-one has thought to develop a breed as a family all-rounder. If you want to do dressage go for a warmblood, an eventer? Irish sport horse, polo ponies for polo, yet if you want a nice co-operative, steady horse, not a pony, you have to just keep trying and trying until you manage to find one. There doesn't seem to be a starting point.

In France they have developed the Henson horse to be suitable as a riding horse, quiet in temperament, sturdy, around 15 hh, lives out, but can be used for competition, driving, etc.

I guess in the USA there are an awful lot of ordinary quarter horses, which is where people start to look for their family horse.

I suppose historically in the UK we are obsessed with sports horses and high level competition. A dealer friend said they had lots of lovely horses through their hands, but it was a lot harder to find a good home for a competition horse than some quiet plod.

 

[Littlelegs]

The reason we haven't developed a breed here is because until recently we (the UK) learnt to ride on native ponies as children whereas the usa etc don't have this option. We do have many family type horses, cobs spring to mind if we're working on the uks traditional premise that we all learnt as kids.

 

[Kat]

We did develop suitable family horse types in this country. The large M&M breeds are pretty perfect family mounts as long as you aren't huge (and buy based upon suitability and temprement rather than looks, showring breeding or some misconceived generalisation). The cob was defined as a family allrounder, suitable to do light agricultural work, take the family to church on a sunday, be ridden by any member of the family and take dad hunting, at around 15hh and sturdy it should be suitable for larger children and most adults.

The thing is here in the UK we aren't the best at preserving and marketing our breeds, hence many of the european carriage horses have become popular and in demand riding horses while the cleveland bay languishes on the rare breeds list.

Also 30+ years ago you didn't own a warmblood or a sports horse, if it wasn't a TB, a draft or a native pony you owned a hack, a hunter or a cob. The obsession with breeding is relatively recent. I blame those "Breeds of the World" books that we all studied so carefully as wistful kids!

 

[marmalade76]

We did develop suitable family horse types in this country. The large M&M breeds are pretty perfect family mounts as long as you aren't huge (and buy based upon suitability and temprement rather than looks, showring breeding or some misconceived generalisation). The cob was defined as a family allrounder, suitable to do light agricultural work, take the family to church on a sunday, be ridden by any member of the family and take dad hunting, at around 15hh and sturdy it should be suitable for larger children and most adults.

The thing is here in the UK we aren't the best at preserving and marketing our breeds, hence many of the european carriage horses have become popular and in demand riding horses while the cleveland bay languishes on the rare breeds list.

Also 30+ years ago you didn't own a warmblood or a sports horse, if it wasn't a TB, a draft or a native pony you owned a hack, a hunter or a cob. The obsession with breeding is relatively recent. I blame those "Breeds of the World" books that we all studied so carefully as wistful kids!

Excellent post, kat, and I agree.

But are the horse owners of today really turning their noses up at our natives in favour of sports horses/warmbloods, and if so why?

Is it because there are so many SH/WB about that have not made the grade in the sport they were bred for and are therefore affordable and readily available or is because the natives (and I include the TB and cob in that) just not the thing to be seen on??

 

[Orangehorse]

Kat, I agree, you are right, although maybe it is the Native "pony" bit that puts people off.

 

[Kat]

Excellent post, kat, and I agree.

But are the horse owners of today really turning their noses up at our natives in favour of sports horses/warmbloods, and if so why?

Is it because there are so many SH/WB about that have not made the grade in the sport they were bred for and are therefore affordable and readily available or is because the natives (and I include the TB and cob in that) just not the thing to be seen on??

I think a lot of it is supply, but also image.

For example there are plenty of TBs out there but they have such a negative image that an average rider would probably be put off. A reasonably competent first time owner could probably cope with an off the track tb that is maybe 10 and has had 5 years in a private home as an RC allrounder but they have probably heard a million people say that ex-racers aren't suitable for novices so they wouldn't look and even if they did would worry about looking stupid if they had problems. The 10 year old tb might be far more suitable than the 6 year old ISH/WB but they have been almost brainwashed against the TB.

Also there are so many really awfully bred cobs out there with rotten conformation that aren't capable of as much as many average riders would like which can put them off the whole type. You ride a few that are so conformationally challenged they can't hold a proper outline and you start to wonder if they are all like that. I've ridden some cracking cobs that jump over 1m and do a smashing dressage test but they aren't the rule and they tend to be in showing homes or hunting homes and commanding very healthy prices. You can't get a nicely put together talented cob for the same money as a respectable looking ISH/WB that can do the same job.

I think some buyers do turn their noses up at some of our native breeds, but many more are just looking for something that ticks their boxes and comes within budget. However prejudices, and negative reputations can stop someone even looking at a certain type or breed.

Kat, I agree, you are right, although maybe it is the Native "pony" bit that puts people off.

It shouldn't, but there does seem to be a worrying misconception of what an appropriate size is. It is almost fashionable now to be a small lady on a huge horse and people post on here worried that they are too big for their horse/pony when their feet aren't even level with the bottom of the horse's belly. Haven't a clue where it comes from as there are as many top riders who are on the tall side for their horse as there are on the small side, children still do height and age restricted classes and you see lots of adults on ponies in showing.

Anyway last time the Queen was seen on horseback in public she was riding a native pony, if it is good enough for our head of state it should be good enough for the rest of us!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

you weren't hoping to jump it, were you?

A few springs and a big 'ping' button to press, will surely turn this chap into a Grand Prix SJ schoolmaster?

 

[JFTDWS]

Also there are so many really awfully bred cobs out there with rotten conformation that aren't capable of as much as many average riders would like which can put them off the whole type. You ride a few that are so conformationally challenged they can't hold a proper outline and you start to wonder if they are all like that. I've ridden some cracking cobs that jump over 1m and do a smashing dressage test but they aren't the rule and they tend to be in showing homes or hunting homes and commanding very healthy prices.

I agree so much with this. There are some truly awful cobs out there - and couple that to the fact most cobs are owned by incompetent riders *IME*, and you could destroy the credibility of an entire type.

J never did dressage to any level, but I never asked him to, so that's not a fair test He did however sj up to 90s in his late teens, jumping 1m30 at home, was placed at county level, won his first open indoor trec and literally turns his hoof to anything with as much success as any smart looking horse ridden by your average muppet.

Anyway last time the Queen was seen on horseback in public she was riding a native pony, if it is good enough for our head of state it should be good enough for the rest of us!

This is what I always say, Kat

 

[JFTDWS]

A few springs and a big 'ping' button to press, will surely turn this chap into a Grand Prix SJ schoolmaster?

Sure, we can always give it a go

I reckon even Fergs could get round a GP course with big enough springs

 

[Kat]

I agree so much with this. There are some truly awful cobs out there - and couple that to the fact most cobs are owned by incompetent riders *IME*, and you could destroy the credibility of an entire type.

J never did dressage to any level, but I never asked him to, so that's not a fair test He did however sj up to 90s in his late teens, jumping 1m30 at home, was placed at county level, won his first open indoor trec and literally turns his hoof to anything with as much success as any smart looking horse ridden by your average muppet.

Phew thank goodness I haven't upset the cobfather!

It is a real joy to see a good cob working, whether it be jumping, hunting, showing, dressage, trec, driving or even just hacking. But there are some absolute shockers bred by bin end breeders and "rescued" from the meat man who do the type no favours at all.

This is what I always say, Kat

Hope you make sure to wear your hermes head scarf too. If you must emulate HRH do it properly!

 

[Princess Jess]

I will say again that the other thread is about novice riders. When did just about being able to walk, trot, canter in the school pass for average? That is not average. It might be your idea of average if you have never exposed yourself to a world outside the RS and a bit of happy hacking but it really, really isn't.

If we're going to discuss, could we please at least accept that we are talking about novices or at best novice to average?

Totally agree!
I think horses are like cars...its not until you're out on your own that you really learn! (And yes I have just passed my driving test hence the car analogy!)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Only unlike a car, a horse can be upset, fightened, excited etc...

In many ways people expect learning to ride to be too similar to learning to drive.

 

[JFTDWS]

Phew thank goodness I haven't upset the cobfather!

Quite. I don't want to have to lop L's head off and put it in your bed, if I don't have to

Hope you make sure to wear your hermes head scarf too. If you must emulate HRH do it properly!

Oh quite. And the jodhs and short boots look too.

Sadly being a bit taller that HRH, I don't always manage the "in proportion" look

 

[Kaylum]

Well in our school we had tbs, cobs, welshys all schooled by ourselves to first of help riders learn and secondly you cannot teach on a nonresponsive horse when people are paying.

We had two fantastic tb we could put anyone on. They had been schooled and that's how you teach someone to ride, they are actually schooling the horses whilst learning to ride.

The cobs were ok but people loved the tbs and of course the big draught hunter.

It's not the breed its the all round package.

You never learn how to ride until you get your own horse, they aren't being schooled for you everyday which makes a big difference.

 

[Stroppy Mare]

I own a connemara x tb, she is quirky, opinionated and extremely stubborn. Get her on side and she's also extremely loyal.

Now, her dam, sire and sister are all nothing like her, and infact are total dobbins, real plod alongs. So what makes my girl any different? - Individuality. You can't group horses by breed and stereotype them, hell you can't expect that breeding two calm and sedate horses will get you a calm and sedate foal, but what you can guarantee is, when you find that horse you click with, you just know (may take a few years, but you know when you're a partnership).

My next horse is pretty specific, I'm now a huge fan of conny x tbs, and will honestly stay within that cross, unless something else crops up. It must also be a filly/mare. Colour is negotiable, anything but grey (the cleaning before a show, and the chance of melanomas worries me). The one thing I am unwilling to budge on is temperament. I like mine sharp and responsive, but not mind-blowing types.

 

[kippen64]

FWIW, the stereotypes of highlands I know all say they're strong, stubborn and need really firm handling. But that's a stereotype that kicks around the breeders and owners I know over here. Personally I don't find either of mine like that - other than some leading issues a year or two ago, I generally find F & D very keen to please. I xc F in a plastic french link and he is never strong. If he's going to be a pig, he will drop his shoulder like a pony or spin or bounce around and snort like an arab. He's completely different in personality to Darach, to other highlands I've ridder, to Kippen, etc. There's a lot of variety even within fairly in bred animals (closed studs etc) in both personality and type - and that's before you start generalising about x-breeds

Anyone who buys a pony on the strength of a stereotype is a fool.

Kippen's full brother is exactly the same as him. His owner and I swapped notes. In Australia, that is not typical behaviour for a Highland Pony. Most breeders seem to be aiming for a gentle pony. The RDA wanted Kippen purely because of his breed without knowing anything about him. That is simply how Highland Ponies are viewed here. I told them no of course. So the same breed, different opinions. Interesting.

 

[JFTDWS]

Kippen's full brother is exactly the same as him. His owner and I swapped notes. In Australia, that is not typical behaviour for a Highland Pony. Most breeders seem to be aiming for a gentle pony. The RDA wanted Kippen purely because of his breed without knowing anything about him. That is simply how Highland Ponies are viewed here. I told them no of course. So the same breed, different opinions. Interesting.

Indeed, it's complex. I suspect highlands are stereotyped as bombproof plods by some people over here (not the breeders / owners I mentioned before). Knowing the ideas of different studs, and the different handling levels/ styles by different breeders, I think there's so much more to it than breed. And then you consider handling during breaking and general riding and management practices.

Some highlands (the traditional types) are very heavy looking, short-legged, thick necked and more often come with a lovely quiet temperament, though sometimes more than willing to use their strength to their own advantage - ime. The showier, sportier types are less pony-looking (relatively speaking!), have better action as riding ponies and can be flightier, but less stubborn. I'm generalising wildly - but different breeders breed for different things. Some do keep temperament well in mind - Darach's sire is the most amenable stallion I've ever encountered! - and also moves beautifully and conformationally is of the showier type.

Yep, stand by what I said before - don't judge a pony by its breed stereotype!

 

[Ladydragon]

The thing is here in the UK we aren't the best at preserving and marketing our breeds, hence many of the european carriage horses have become popular and in demand riding horses while the cleveland bay languishes on the rare breeds list.

Also 30+ years ago you didn't own a warmblood or a sports horse, if it wasn't a TB, a draft or a native pony you owned a hack, a hunter or a cob. The obsession with breeding is relatively recent. I blame those "Breeds of the World" books that we all studied so carefully as wistful kids!

The first bit... So true, and also pretty sad...

I've kinda skipped a generation... Back when I was a youngster my friends with horses had native type beasties of some sort or another... There were the working horses pulling the veg man or on the farms... The 'affluent' had pretty TBs, went to competitions and the like... We trundled around the roads/countryside dodging whatever else was in the area and, with horse, had to just get on with it... Skip 25yrs + of minimal contact with horses and the youngsters today have a variety of breeds and sizes and it seems, in general, to be geared a bit more towards competing in some shape or form... My son's turning out to be a nice rider but I've no intention of letting him go to hunter trials or the like this year - it's too soon... The youngsters he rides out with are a tad gobsmacked that he won't be even though he only had his first jumping lesson this week... Luckily son isn't bothered, is honest enough with himself to know his limitations, and really does want to ride 'properly' in the school, bazzing in the field and hacking out before trying anything competitive... Maybe I'm trying to bomb proof him as much as any horse he may sit...

I dunno... Aims and expectations appear to be a little different today...

 

[Passtheshampoo]

Thank you! You are the voice of sense.

I have been riding for nearly 30 years. I am more than capable of doing a medium dressage test and jumping 1m20
I have a very talented TB
However, I only enjoy happy hacking, sponsored rides, low level hunter trials and occasional cubbing. At best 98% of the time I am a happy hacker.
This does not make me a novice.
It means that I am getting old and I have 3 children to consider. My priorities have changed.

I'm not the rider I was 20 odd years ago after 4 children and 3 spinal ops. I used to HT, XC and BSJA with my horses, plus backed and brought on a fair few youngsters. These days I could manage most horses but choose not to as I don't have the flexibility and energy I once had. I prefer riding something that is safe on the roads, level headed and good to handle on the ground. I want to enjoy my horse not be overhorsed. My current horse is a homebred RID mare and suits me perfectly for want I want to do, hacking, pleasure rides, low level dressage and popping the odd log here and there. If I were ever to lose her then I would angle towards another ID type but wouldn't rule out other breeds if they were right horse for me.

 

[WelshCManiac]

If an average rider jumps 1m 10 and does medium dressage tests then most of us and our country are below average.
I don't ride any dressage and I'm still working on getting my pony over 60/65cm jumps because she was very unbalanced as a youngster but her old owners pushed her over jumps anyway.
Yet showing is my discipline and even my first time showing I won 3 firsts and a champion sash.
I reckon that there's only 1 or 2 people at my yard that can jump over 1 metre and compete in a medium dressage test but we're not bad riders at all.

 

[mariew]

Ugh, a medium and jumping 1.10, i think that is a fairly high bar and a broad generalisation. And also hugely dependent on horse and rider combination. 1.10cm on a difficult horse to ride, medium difficult horse to ride, or one that's foot perfect and doesn't need lots of "riding" to get it right? One that you've trained yourself or you have had ready made from someone else? Just get on any horse or one you know and trust well? That should probably include going out on a fairly exciting and fast hack too.

I agree with comments above, i am not sure there is an average rider and average horse. It's whatever horse suits you and what you want to do. Saying that it is very easy to overhorse yourself when getting a new one though.

 

[milliepops]

Wow, old thread with some old names on it!

 

[oldie48]

I am well below average as a rider. I haven't jumped for years and when I did I never went over 2'6" (but tbh on a sensible horse that knew his job, all I had to do was steer) I see lots of people jumping much bigger courses but some of them have lousy positions and I doubt they could school a horse on the flat to a decent level. I have ridden tests at medium level and schooled at Adv Med but only on a horse I knew well. I'm the typical one horse owner, stick me on a horse that I don't know and it would take me a while to find the buttons and if it bucked or reared, I'd hand the reins back! Over the years I've had a number of different horses, bought because they were suitable (or I thought they would be) for the job never because they were a particular breed. In fact the last two horses I've bought I didn't even know the breed until I'd tried them and had a look at their passports. One was 7/8th TB the other Hanovarian. I am old, lack confidence and a bit of a worrier and I am sure most people would say I should ride a sensible cob, but they are as rare as hen's teeth and actually too wide for my hips. If the average rider can jump 1.10, ride at medium etc, then the RC that I belong to, which is quite big, in a very horsey area and quite successful, has very few "average" riders. IME, this type of rider isn't eligible for most RC comps and is out doing Affiliated comps.