Bridle Lame - is it a "myth"?

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almostthere

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I have always thought it was but.....new young (rising 6) horse - 5 stage vetted less than a week ago by renowned equine vet with x rays. Passed with flying colours. Easy work since purchase including 2 lessons with good trainer who is "hawkeye" when it comes to soundness - previous experience! Using same bit as seller. New saddle professionally fitted. My farrier put shoes back on from x rays but assured me did nothing to interfere with existing foot balance.
Seller had said "can be lazy on flat". Rode on Monday night - head nodding in trot. Got off immediately trotted him up untacked. Seemed sound. Called vet - came next day. Yard manager rode (worth noting would naturally be stronger in the leg than me) so I could watch. Was much better with YM and vet said very barely lame (less than 1/10) on a circle under saddle but sound in a straight line. Suggested danilon for 5 days (riding again after 2 ) and then reassess.
Rode on sat (still on danilon as suggested by vet) still head nodding intermittently but got better if I drove him forward into contact. Someone on yard suggested could be "bridle lame" and I should really drive him forward next time I rode him. Checked with seller - she said she has seen him do this if he gets behind leg enough. Last night really drove him forward into contact and really only a couple of steps of nodding out of 20mins, and better on the rein he had been worse on the day before.
Vet is coming out to reassess Wed but curious as to whether anyone else has experienced this? I admit I have always been dismissive of bridle lameness as a concept but this does feel odd. Why would he still do it on danilon which should be masking any pain? And why would it get better the more contact he takes? It feels odd to be driving horse forward when they are "head nodding" but friend watching said footfall looks even and vet said that "most people wouldn't have noticed". Vet also checked teeth and back and no sensitivity anywhere. Of course we are both still getting used to each other and he has only been ridden by a pro to date so a "proper rider". Is he just getting used to my flaws? Of course I will follow through with vets - hopefully I am not the unluckiest horse owner in the world but who knows?
 
I don't think I believe in bridle lameness TBH.

To me they're either lame or they're not; if they stop showing signs of lameness when being driven forwards or when they're being ridden in a tight contact, it's because something is physically stopping them from head-nodding.

If I were you, I'd give two weeks off and then reassess with the vet (and also get a second opinion from a diff. vet).

Was the vetting done with the seller's vet or your own?
 
Vetting done by an independent vet recommended by my own. I completely understand what you are saying - I was cynical too - I have just never experienced anything like it. Thanks for the advice.
 
I would think if YM is stronger they was probably holding the horse together more, probably without even noticing. I would suggest same as SpringArising, couple of weeks off and then reassess with a 2nd opinion too.
 
I would want to see how he is lunged on a firm surface, that will be more telling than ridden as the rider can influence subtle lameness, the danilon will only reduce inflammation, it is not going to mask pain totally so the fact it has not made much difference does not discount pain.

I have seen bridle lameness but there has always been an underlying issue once it has been properly investigated, it has been coming from different places from the feet to the saddle or even coming through from the hind leg causing them to look lame in front.

If you have a good physio and the vet agrees it may be worth getting them in as they are often good at looking at the whole horse and frequently find a sore area that the vet doesn't think relevant.
 
Thank you - yes physio booked for Friday too. Lunging on firm happened obviously at vetting but it was too slippery when vet came out to try on firm. He was fine on a surface. Thanks again - seems I am not alone in my scepticism....;)
 
Yes, I have seen bridle lameness. Caused by rider crookedness (of shoulders, whole body or seat/legs) and/or uneven weight in the reins. If he's still doing this whilst on Danilon then you can be pretty sure it's not due to pain.
 
Danilon won't always mask pain .
Training issues ( rider and or horse )do sometimes make horses look unlevel .
And strong determined riders can make lame horses get on with the job and look sound.
Lack of straightness couple with the horse not being very forward thinking could cause what you're describing .
Uncomfortable tack can be a factor too one horse I knew had this sort of issue solved by changing the head piece on his bridle .
It's a difficult thing to deal with , no one wants to work a horse that's not right but if the vet is happy for you to do so I would crack on with training and see if it gets worse or better , if it gets worse the vet might have a better chance of finding the cause and if it gets better you have the answer .
I would either watch someone else riding the horse weekly or get a friend to video you so you can see any differences over time ,they are also good to show the vet .
 
Goldenstar said:
Danilon won't always mask pain .
Training issues ( rider and or horse )do sometimes make horses look unlevel .
And strong determined riders can make lame horses get on with the job and look sound.
Lack of straightness couple with the horse not being very forward thinking could cause what you're describing .
Uncomfortable tack can be a factor too one horse I knew had this sort of issue solved by changing the head piece on his bridle .
It's a difficult thing to deal with , no one wants to work a horse that's not right but if the vet is happy for you to do so I would crack on with training and see if it gets worse or better , if it gets worse the vet might have a better chance of finding the cause and if it gets better you have the answer .
I would either watch someone else riding the horse weekly or get a friend to video you so you can see any differences over time ,they are also good to show the vet .
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Thanks that is helpful. I don't "think" I sit particularly crooked (just came back from dr boot camp on other horse and really useful video of me from behind shows I sit pretty straight ;)) BUT I am sure I will be a VERY different rider to the pro which is all he has known for 2.5 years- and he has just had new bridle new saddle etc ie a LOT of change to adjust to. Will see what vet says on Wed but you are right he did say he wouldn't even know where to start with nerve blocking as no obvious signs of discomfort anywhere on his legs/feet. Thanks again - I appreciate time taken.
 
You're welcome ,
IIWU I would ask the vet about a assessment from a ACPAT trained physio ( for the horse !) that might show up something interesting Physio's assess horse differently to vets and can be very perceptive sometimes.
 
almostthere said:
Thanks that is helpful. I don't "think" I sit particularly crooked (just came back from dr boot camp on other horse and really useful video of me from behind shows I sit pretty straight ;)) BUT I am sure I will be a VERY different rider to the pro which is all he has known for 2.5 years- and he has just had new bridle new saddle etc ie a LOT of change to adjust to. Will see what vet says on Wed but you are right he did say he wouldn't even know where to start with nerve blocking as no obvious signs of discomfort anywhere on his legs/feet. Thanks again - I appreciate time taken.
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I have just been through this, after long time of thinking horse is 'bridle lame' when I bought her eventually took her for lameness work up and she had an issue in her t14/15/16 that needed injecting right under the saddle.
 
has the saddle been checked in use? Might be impinging in motion? Does he do it bareback? just a few thoughts, but like the others I agree bridle lame is still lame it is just a case of finding where. Hock spavin can appear like this early on, and disappear with a stronger rider who can send him forwards.
 
thanks all. I hope that the x rays would have spotted spavin and issues with back but I am having a second opinion on those. Also would be surprised if foot balance could be affected within a week (although I am certainly no expert)? farrier worked from the foot balance x rays taken at vetting. And saddle was tried in use and horse moved freely but will get saddler back out.
 
almostthere said:
I I admit I have always been dismissive of bridle lameness as a concept but this does feel odd. Why would he still do it on danilon which should be masking any pain?
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During a three week bute trial my horse felt worse on three bute a day rather than the half a sachet a day which he ended up with for months and months. It may have been that when he initially went on the trial he was in more pain than the third, fourth or fifth weeks for example. But I really don't think so.

My horse used to get bridle lame, and its to do with the amount of contact during a particular part of his stride and he would react by putting less weight on that leg during the swing of the stride if you altered the contact at that particular part of the stride. Not sure I've explained that properly, its incredibly difficult to describe such a thing but I know what you mean. He was also ridden a lot in a pelham, and I think he found this restrictive so this stopped the forwards movement every now and again.

He would react like that maybe once in every three schooling sessions, so its wasn't very often at all. I don't think he's done this for months now but then again I ride him in a snaffle more as I have got the dressage bug again.
 
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Bridle Lame - a similar term used like "cold backed," IMO.

Please also check your bridle - like saddles bridles cause endless problems also and they are often well overlooked! Check the bridle is cut back behind the ear, brow band is on the large side, generally fits him confirmation wise etc. It could be the sensitive nerve tissue that runs down the side of the face is being aggravated by the bridle.
 
Thanks again - really appreciate time taken to respond. So by way of update - saddle checked again - fine. Bridle checked - if anything too loose so tightened a little - made no difference. Checked by a "proper" physio - commented "very appropriately muscled for his age with no obvious muscle soreness anywhere". Vet back out still 1/10 to 2/10 lame under saddle but sound in a straight line :(. Vet cannot explain how he gets "more sound" if pushed forward but in his opinion it is not a balance issue there is a definite lameness. Sooo...off for a full work-up and provisional booking for an MRI. Oh joy! Do I get the award for the most unlucky new horse owner?
 
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feet MRI?

It does sound like he is slightly uncomfortable, enough to show up when ridden but that you can push him on/ride him together so appears sound which I don't think is that unusual with smaller niggles.

Good luck with work up.
 
Thank you! Yes feet MRI. Sadly, I have had enough experience of these to know that they are not always conclusive but I have to start somewhere....:(.
 
It is sensible to consider it though given the proportion of lameness attributed to the feet. I also think they can present a bit on/off for a while depending on ground conditions etc/can take so much and then break. That was my own experience at least. Feet are quite good at fixing though ;). Fingers crossed but definitely feel for you with a new one!
 
yes - I agree - I want to get some answers if at all possible! Thank you - just goes to show you can take all the precautions and you can still be very unlucky :(
 
By way of update and to thank all of you for taking the time to reply. Sadly, after full lameness work-up yesterday the horse showed bi-laterally lame on front suspensories. So in his case (and I am not making any comment about others :) ), bridle lameness was not applicable...pleased I trusted my instincts.
 
Not good news for you, very interesting though as it could easily had been considered to be a ridden issue and explains why he did not respond completely to pain relief, having only just bought him you must be gutted.
 
Thank you - yes obviously very disappointed but trying to be positive (no pun intended) :). I have learned a lot through the process - apparently not uncommon for horses moving home to be affected by the change in surface from one home to another - seller had quite a deep surface in their school and we have quite a compacted wax type surface. And at least I acted now when it is "only" desmitis - if I had carried on it could have got much worse.... he 's a young horse -some time off probably won't hurt him even if it is at my expense! And he was such a good boy at work-up - vet described him as "the most polite angry horse" she had ever had to nerve block - those needles hurt! Thanks again for your insights - what forums are all about IMO :)
 
Yes - a few times, all horses had a back problem that when ridden well forward loosened up. What was noticed was that when the novice owner rode the horse it went unlevel - when the experienced rider rode the horse went sound.
 
almostthere said:
Thank you - yes obviously very disappointed but trying to be positive (no pun intended) :). I have learned a lot through the process - apparently not uncommon for horses moving home to be affected by the change in surface from one home to another - seller had quite a deep surface in their school and we have quite a compacted wax type surface. And at least I acted now when it is "only" desmitis - if I had carried on it could have got much worse.... he 's a young horse -some time off probably won't hurt him even if it is at my expense! And he was such a good boy at work-up - vet described him as "the most polite angry horse" she had ever had to nerve block - those needles hurt! Thanks again for your insights - what forums are all about IMO :)
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How disappointing for you. I would just like to add what a lucky horse he is to be owned by someone like you. Good luck with his rehab and I hope he goes on to reward you for the care you are showing him.

As for bridle lame, they are either sound or they are not in my view. I have had a horse that came from a home where changing the diagonal was unheard of and during the phase of introducing it the horse felt and looked lame until it was able to balance itself and strengthen the weak diagonal.
 
AdorableAlice said:
How disappointing for you. I would just like to add what a lucky horse he is to be owned by someone like you. Good luck with his rehab and I hope he goes on to reward you for the care you are showing him.

Gosh thank you - that is very kind of you to write that!
I am not sure he thinks he is lucky now he is on box rest.....:)
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