British Breeding

[Faithkat]

Looking on the HOYS website last night I was very excited to see Michael Whitaker's Carnaval Path and Cian O'Connor's Zanoubia (sp?) both doing well and by that lovely man - Carnaval Drum . I assume from the name that Kevin and Annette bred Carnaval Path!!!!! Hoorah for British breeding (even if he is Dutch WB)

 

[S_N]

I think more communication with the BEF is needed. I had a letter from them this morning saying just that - open lines of communication and all that - certainly with regards to British breeders! This thread has certainly inspired me to get on my band wagon!!

 

[Rambo]

I think Michael Whitaker bred Carnaval Path himself, although I may be wrong

 

[S_N]

LOL - though how much of the continental WB is based on British blood? It really does suprise some people how much TB, CB, WC, Hackney, Norfolk Trotters etc were used to improve the continental breeds. I don't think for one minute you would be one of these people Forester, but I just thought I'd give it a mention

 

[Anastasia]

Forester, that was good news, especially for the younger horses in the Foxhunter etc.

Going back to Kelly's post I forgot to add that originally we were speaking about the Elite Auctions that Brightwells hold, so not quite the same as someone going along to a dealer with 40-100 horses to see. I think the fact that it is classed as "Elite" means that they are looking to attract those people willing to pay more for a horse, which as we have said, they could quite easily get in the UK.

 

[Faithkat]

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is with british breeders asking so much money for their horses

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you call "so much money"? I currently have a nicely-bred on both sides Anglo-Arab mare in foal to a son of Carnaval Drum. At this precise moment she is 5 months pregnant and the "foal" has cost just on £1000 so far, assuming there are no birth complications (please God) by the time the foal is weaned and ready to sell it will have cost somewhere in the region of £2000 just to "produce". If I keep it until it is 3 or 4 then a realistic sum, just to cover costs, would have to be £5000 - £6000. Would you consider this to be too much as an asking price? There would be no "profit" there either and without any addition for backing/schooling.

 

[SPARK]

Hello there forester!

Interesting! That's another fine beast bred by the very British Kevin and Annette! They breed nice foals don't they??!!

 

[Rambo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thing is with british breeders asking so much money for their horses

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you call "so much money"? I currently have a nicely-bred on both sides Anglo-Arab mare in foal to a son of Carnaval Drum. At this precise moment she is 5 months pregnant and the "foal" has cost just on £1000 so far, assuming there are no birth complications (please God) by the time the foal is weaned and ready to sell it will have cost somewhere in the region of £2000 just to "produce". If I keep it until it is 3 or 4 then a realistic sum, just to cover costs, would have to be £5000 - £6000. Would you consider this to be too much as an asking price? There would be no "profit" there either and without any addition for backing/schooling.

[/ QUOTE ]

In honesty ?

If I could buy the same animal from abroad for half the price (which I could!), then yes, I would consider £5k - £6k to be too much

That's not criticising you as a breeder though, merely stating commercial reality.

 

[Faithkat]

Yes, but the commercial reality is that is how much is costs to produce the foal/horse!!! I'm not breeding as a business so that figure would only cover costs, would you, therefore. expect breeders to sell at a loss all the time? The £1000 that my "foal" has cost so far is actually only the stud fee, livery costs at the stud, a couple of scans and the vet's fee for crushing one of the twins that she conceived, I haven't included the costs keeping the mare herself! I don't think you are being very realistic with regard to costs!

 

[Kelly1982]

I totally agree with what you and SN are saying, like i said i am all for British breeding and i agree that things are a hell of a lot dearer in the UK so of course our horses are going to be more money as we have to cover the price of livery fee etc as you say.

I also agree that we are getting the 'average' horses sent over or horses with problems, Holland are not going to realease quality stock and thats why we are getting them even cheaper BUT people are still going to go for the bargins. Why pay more for a horse when you dont need to??

I know of one dealer over here though who gets horses imported to him and he doesn't even see them until they arrive at his yard. I dont think i know one of his horses that have passed a vet but people are still buying them because they are so cheap.

If people think they are getting a good deal and there are a demand for them then horses are going to keep being imported.

 

[Rambo]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but the commercial reality is that is how much is costs to produce the foal/horse!!! I'm not breeding as a business so that figure would only cover costs, would you, therefore. expect breeders to sell at a loss all the time? The £1000 that my "foal" has cost so far is actually only the stud fee, livery costs at the stud, a couple of scans and the vet's fee for crushing one of the twins that she conceived, I haven't included the costs keeping the mare herself! I don't think you are being very realistic with regard to costs!

[/ QUOTE ]

I did say I wasn't criticising you as a breeder. The fact is that the system in this country (rip off britain) means that everything costs way too much. Anyone with half a brain will go abroad if they can save 50% on the purchase of goods. We've seen it with cars, wine, cigarettes, and call centres. Why should horses be any different ?

I doubt to be honest with you that even £1000 covers the cost of your foal so far. From what i've seen, a decent stallion's fee for a sport horse is nearer to £1k, then add vets fees etc and you are probably nearer to double the figure you quote before the foal is even born.

I'm not beeing unreasonable, just realistic

 

[druid]

Honestly, british prices are ridiculous atm and not just for youngstock.

I looked at an exceptional 4yo colt by Captain Clover out of a Ricardo mare with a decent jumping jumping record, he was just professioanlly backed and proper stallion material, enviable paces and a super jump ..... he was €6.5k (£4,375).

 

[SPARK]

Horses, as with most things are only worth what people are willing to pay.

 

[druid]

Which is alot less if you go anywhere outside the UK...tells you something??

 

[SPARK]

My comment wasn't aimed at you, just in general.

My british bred foal I purchased earlier this year was not expensive. The amount I paid for him was what I was expecting to pay and I don't think I would have got anything better for the same price if I had gone overseas to buy.

 

[druid]

Ah, I thought you were replying to me!

I might go overseas...If I wasn't specifically looking for an Irish bred horse!

 

[severnmiles]

Druid! I am shocked by the price of horses in Ireland at the mo, let alone England. I don't mean to be rude to the Irish breeders but there is some sh*t going through the sales for 4/5k. Anything decent and you're talk 8-12k!

 

[S_N]

That doesn't suprise me, sounds nice too! Irish breeders have had a relatively easy time of it since the tax exemption on stud fees in 1969. This has put other European breeders (not just the British), at an unfair dis-advantage and rightly a stop has been called to it, though from 2008. Though I have read that there have been lobbies to the Irish Govt. to bring in a new tax regime, as close as possible to current one.

 

[druid]

I've been avoiding the sales recently!! They've gotten "fahsionable", always the downturn of something good.

 

[druid]

True, the exemption helps BUT not enough to bring prices down consistently by 30-50% in comaprison to UK prices which is what we see...

 

[S_N]

As much as that? Golly! Don't get me wrong, but I agree with whoever said "rip off Britain" in this thread! I think that is where the problem lies - as Forester has said, the cost is more than a little large to produce foals/youngstock over here!

Though some get lucky

- even lucky enough to knock a couple of K off the value...... That's NOT a hint either - just fact, from my perspective.

 

[druid]

Lol, not a hint?

Hey...you may have Rip off Britain for horses...we have have Rip off Ireland for everyday living. I know which I'd prefer!

 

[S_N]

lol - I think it's Rip off Britain on that score too

 

[severnmiles]

Me too!!!

 

[SirenaXVI]

Yes, it is sad that people feel the need to go to the continent to buy their competition horses - I really feel for British breeders and am proud to say, that all my horses, although a foreign breed, are british bred.

There are lots of decent breeders in the UK, we need to support them.

 

[Anastasia]

Sirena, we need more people like you.........

Can I just ask, what would people be willing to pay for a well bred British foal for a good enough competition prospect? I think that this would be an interesting starting point.

 

[SirenaXVI]

The most I have paid is £5k, the least is £2.5 - but that was a bit of a bargain!

 

[sallyf]

SN the reason The Agha Khan boycotted Britain for so long was over the disqualification of Alysia(sp) for failing a dope test after winning the oaks.

 

[sallyf]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with what you and SN are saying, like i said i am all for British breeding and i agree that things are a hell of a lot dearer in the UK so of course our horses are going to be more money as we have to cover the price of livery fee etc as you say.

I also agree that we are getting the 'average' horses sent over or horses with problems, Holland are not going to realease quality stock and thats why we are getting them even cheaper BUT people are still going to go for the bargins. Why pay more for a horse when you dont need to??

I know of one dealer over here though who gets horses imported to him and he doesn't even see them until they arrive at his yard. I dont think i know one of his horses that have passed a vet but people are still buying them because they are so cheap.

If people think they are getting a good deal and there are a demand for them then horses are going to keep being imported.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps that is why we have so many unsound horses in this country.
Every other post you read on here is my horse has this that and the other wrong with it.
We breed horses from good , tough sound British stock that never had any soundness issues and yet we struggle to find homes for them at a sensible price.
I advertise my stock at £2500 which isnt a huge amount as we feed correctly , innoculate etc etc.
In the 30 years that we have had horses and competed , we have never had soundness problems and all have been British bred horses.
Perhaps it time to give British breeders a chance , let face it when we used traditional breeding many years ago we were also the top in SJ.
The continentals dont sell there best unless it has a huge price tag .
The rest could have a multitude of issues and how much knowledge do the people that are buying them have to see the problems.
We dont make any money at the prices we sell at , we own the stallions and the mares , but running a stud these days is crippling.
To feed and do youngstock correctly is not cheap and usually a cheap horse is one that corners have been cut to make a profit.

 

[Anastasia]

WELL DONE SALLY...........VERY WELL SAID..........

We are the same, none of the stock we have sold have had any soundness problems etc and all the owners are delighted with what they have.

Breeders in Europe are not daft, they keep the best horses and sell the not so good ones, as you say many of those end up in the UK.

I once remember someone telling me that a British buyer would purchase a horse with three legs from Europe just to be able to say they purchased it abroad!! That was a few years ago when the fashion just started.

Anyway going back to the prices for youngstock. When we sell our foals they can be anything between £2.5-£4k, this depends on the foal and also the home they are going to. This is out of our own top graded stallions and out of proven breeding/competition mares. The stock are well handled from birth and given the best upbringing before heading off to their new homes. We have not had one disappointed customer and all the people who have purchased our foals keep in contact with their progress.

You have to remember that horses in many of the large stud farms in Europe are farmed like any other livestock. They are produced in large numbers and wont be given the same care and attention as many studs based in the UK.