Buck. The real horse whisperer. BBC4.

ribbons said:
I think buck explained that brain damage after oxygen deprivation at birth was likely. He also pointed out that although it would never be a world beater it could have been a nice reliable little horse with the right owner.
Sadly this little fella got an idiot.
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I don't think anyone could be sure the behaviour was caused by brain damage, and it's entirely possible all of it was learned. My guess (and I don't know) is that Buck raised this possibility to make the owner a) feel better and b) do the sensible thing.
 
I agree, I don't think good horsemanship should be labelled e.g. NH, classical, etc etc.

Good horsemanship is good horsemanship is good horsemanship - don't care if you wear a stetson or a bowler hat.

and thanks Terri for that lovely compliment! I'm not known for good posts so it means a lot!! Cheers! :):)
 
I was struck by the amount of rapid blinking that colt showed. Whether that's indicative of a nervous system disorder or his owner had already tried him on drugs, I don't know. Either way I'd like to have seen the colt gelded and the owner shot.

The whole thing reminded me of a documentary about a chimp removed from its mother and 'raised as a human'. Like watching a car crash in very slow motion. Absolutely tragic.
 
doriangrey - thank you for posting the link. I was so disappointed when I saw this thread and realised I'd missed the programme.
 
sally259 said:
doriangrey - thank you for posting the link. I was so disappointed when I saw this thread and realised I'd missed the programme.
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You're welcome :) I had to find it that way myself after I missed it because even though I pay for the BBC channels through Sky TV, the iplayer won't stream them in Ireland :mad:
 
Fellewell said:
I was struck by the amount of rapid blinking that colt showed. Whether that's indicative of a nervous system disorder or his owner had already tried him on drugs, I don't know. Either way I'd like to have seen the colt gelded and the owner shot.
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Does anyone know what happened to the colt? I thought he ended up being shot, but I could have imagined that.

If he was gelded, it would be interesting to know the extent to which he calmed down. I don't think castration would make any horse safe necessarily - the worst "out of the blue" biter I ever encountered (who had the nickname Alien) was a gelding.
 
fburton said:
Does anyone know what happened to the colt? I thought he ended up being shot, but I could have imagined that.

If he was gelded, it would be interesting to know the extent to which he calmed down. I don't think castration would make any horse safe necessarily - the worst "out of the blue" biter I ever encountered (who had the nickname Alien) was a gelding.
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I've handled two confirmed biters in the last month, both geldings, and the interesting thing is they can actually be quite selective about who they chomp on. Years ago I loaned an ISH who bit and kicked but it was all defensive. I soon learned how to block and being BHS I always like them securely tethered;)

I too would like to know what became of the colt.
 
I saw it because my sister told me it was on. That clip near the beginning though of the poor horse falling over covered in lunge lines and being whipped made me want to cry, have heard before that things used to be brutal but what were they trying to do????!!!!The horse that bit the handler OMG, I have never seen anything like it !!! Poor guy.
 
From what I saw on a YouTube video ( someone else saw it too as its on a post further up but can't do quotes) the colt is back in with the 17 other stallions and still alive
 
This is off the fb fan page:
An update about the woman Buck is referring to; she has returned to Buck's clinics including the colt starting classes. She has been making many changes in her life and her horsemanship skills continue to improve.
 
Starting young in the USA. My sister lives in the USA and what struck her very early on - 20+ years ago when she moved there - was that as soon as a foal lost its baby tail it was regarded as old enough to be broken and do work. She was shocked. It still goes on. I also know plenty of animals that were broken-in at 2 and are still going strong in their 20s, just as horses broken in later can get injured. Some of it is down to luck, and their work history as well.

As for white eyes, to quote Linda Tellington-Jones, who did a study and is also the granddaughter of a racehorse trainer, " In solid coloured horses, white below or above the pupil that does not change with mood has no particular significance. However, when the white appears or disappers with mood changes, mental imbalance or extreme tension is indicated." This goes on to explain in more details, also mentioning that there may be pain which can explain their behaviour.

I thought is was a well known thing that white around the eyes can mean bad temper, just as lop ears indicate a laid-back individual. Everything is a generalisation of course, but there is a certain amount of truth in these things.
 
I'm American OH. I learned my starting skills over there and what you describe is so untrue. From idiots maybe but hey the UK has those as well. Thing is I'd never label everyone in the UK with broad strokes. And really all across the world and at any age, I see people making disasters out of horses. From cruelty to spoiling rotten in search of a perfect bond.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
I'm American OH. I learned my starting skills over there and what you describe is so untrue. From idiots maybe but hey the UK has those as well. Thing is I'd never label everyone in the UK with broad strokes. And really all across the world and at any age, I see people making disasters out of horses. From cruelty to spoiling rotten in search of a perfect bond.

Terri
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I have to agree, you only have to look on the infamous Dragon Driving to see youngsters started at 2 or even younger in some cases, it is not something that only the US does! There are also plenty of people in the UK who have horses and really really should not!
 
Just watched it on iplayer - brilliant! My favourite bit was the dressage rider working the cows, as a western enthusiast I can't wait to suggest this to the dressage divas at the yard!
 
We've always had a great mix of riders on our clinics, including a couple of dressage divas. Anyone can benefit from looking at what a good horseman does can't they? Even if from a different background.

Re what I said about Parelli, I wasn't comparing Buck to Parelli, to me there is no comparison. I was pointing out that the roots are the same, and look how different they are now...

Buck's story has some striking similarities with Monty Roberts' story doesn't it?
 
LOL Except that Bucks story has been authenticated and Montys proved wrong.......there are some things in Bucks methods that I either don't understand or don't agree with...but there is no denying that he is a superb horseman...look at the clip of him riding his own horse....brilliant!!
 
Tinypony said:
We've always had a great mix of riders on our clinics, including a couple of dressage divas. Anyone can benefit from looking at what a good horseman does can't they? Even if from a different background.
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I think if a horse thinks it has a purpose, it's more likely to co-operate. I was having a debate on another thread about whether horses "love" what they do. Of course, can't say for sure they love anything but I believe they can "enjoy" what's being asked if they feel like they are doing it/practising for a purpose... just like that lady said on the film.
 
Taylorsmum - I to enjoy watching Rick Gore on YouTube, he to doesn't mince his words is an understatement! V entertaining to read his replies to 'people problems' also. His thinklikeahorse website is very interesting and worth a read!

I highly recommend Tom Dorrance's book True Unity. At first I thought where is the step by step guide? But I've realised feel isn't something you can be taught you have to learn from the horse. Very profound how he explains releasing pressure 'after' the horse gives can be too late, try to feel when they are about to give and release so they are not stepping into any pressure. It's something I now practise, it's definitely a skill.

Bucks training DVDs are good to, again not a step by step guide but again you see how close a partnership you can have with a horse.
 
Can I just ask, why does it always seem that to have a close relationship with a horse, one has to follow the western doctrines?

How come no-one ever mentions european trainers that have the same closeness? And actually, some of these europeans have a label of being "airy-fairy". It's baffles me a bit.

I just wonder why there is the perception that natural horsemanship HAS to be from America?
 
tallyho! said:
Can I just ask, why does it always seem that to have a close relationship with a horse, one has to follow the western doctrines?

How come no-one ever mentions european trainers that have the same closeness? And actually, some of these europeans have a label of being "airy-fairy". It's baffles me a bit.

I just wonder why there is the perception that natural horsemanship HAS to be from America?
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Good point. I suspect it is because of where they started from - so-called horsemanship in the early days in the US was very harsh - sacking out is one example. Hard people in hard times and they didn't have time to desensitise etc, but unfortunately the habits die hard. Hence the so called Horse Whisperers, a million miles away from waht people were used to. Over here we had the cavalry but we also had professional grooms looking after the mounts and carriage horses of the wealthy, so I guess they had the luxury of more time to spend with the horses.
Because of the harshness of the horsemanship in the US when someone with humane methods came along they collected a following, like the Dorrance brothers. Over here lots of people were used to being kinder to their horses and able to see things from the horse's viewpoint. That's how I see it - and also I suspect because there are more women around horses in Europe, and women don't have the strength for all out battles, nor the egos :)
 
I'm intrigued by this. Whilst I in no way doubt Bucks ability, feel and talent with horses, if I posted the following I think I'd have got shot down wouldn't I?
Or have I missed something? Admittedly I didn't see the whole programme, but I ink I saw everything of this horse.
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HHO please help me! I've got a 3yo that has been sent to me to back, he's so aggressive he is unhandleable, the owner doesnt seem to have much horse sense, and has given him no boundries. she wants him done ASAP though, so I thought id crack on and get sitting on him. I've never seen anything like him. I've done a bit of round pen work with him the first couple of days, and then managed to catch him by his hind leg, to get a saddle on him. (The rope on the hind leg is the only way to ensure I've got control of him, as he will attack with his teeth)

Anyway, got a saddle on, got a rider on and sent him round the pen, walk trot canter (still had the rope so my jockey wasn't in danger)

That was all good, by the end he was pretty sweaty, and I don't think he looked very sound when he walked out the pen, but I figure that's less important than getting him broken?

Anyway, next time my rider goes in there, the horse goes for him, and bites his face , needing stitches.

Do you think I've gone too quick with the backing process?

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I dont have a massive issue with the hind leg roping, within the right context - I appreciate different techniques within different countries.

I do agree the horse should have been shot.

I do agree the horse needed a seriously good horseman, almost certainly using a good form of horsemanship, (although there are some area of that which I find odd, but that is probably because I don't see the whole picture)

What I can't understand is why we think a horse with massive issues with humans will lose its aggression when concurrently being asked to carry someone in three paces in a very short space of time? I should think he was pretty sore and uncomfortable, so only adding to the issue.

It is precisely this "in a hurry" attitude that makes me avoid backing / starting / problem solving clinics like the plague. There are no short cuts, and I detest all these shows that offer them.
 
tallyho! said:
Can I just ask, why does it always seem that to have a close relationship with a horse, one has to follow the western doctrines?

How come no-one ever mentions european trainers that have the same closeness? And actually, some of these europeans have a label of being "airy-fairy". It's baffles me a bit.

I just wonder why there is the perception that natural horsemanship HAS to be from America?
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I don't know really, it's not a view I've ever subscribed to.
It's a bit like people saying they want to "do" some sort of nh or maybe less BHS training because they want to get a "bond" with their horse.
 
I believe that this particular horse would have been almost impossible to rehabilitate whatever the methods used but I definitely see your point Norfolk Pie. The owner had simply ruined him, Buck knew he couldn't 'fix' it and that's why he sent it packing (I wouldn't have been in the round pen with just 2 sticks to defend myself either). I know it's not always possible to get a foster mare and I bet there are people on here who have successfully hand-reared a foal but luckily it's not something I've ever had to do and it would've been an absolute last resort. Shame, because he was a beauty but terribly damaged and probably very unhappy.
 
I think we have always had natural and intuitive horsemen in the UK. Our culture/tradition is to take months to handle, back & ride away young horses tho. which is much less dramatic and too boring & too much like hard work for people who want a magic solution to their inability to manage their horses.
When you see local nagsmen, they are as often as not barely articulate, let alone able to create a Youtube vidoe series. they will get the horse cantering around a sizeable course of jumps and hacking through heavy traffic in a snaffle & with a smile on it's face tho.

Does Lucy Rees not count as a UK person? Why is the work of people like Reiner Klimke not seen as horsemanship or any less worthy than Buck B's?
 
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