Buck. The real horse whisperer. BBC4.

[Alec Swan]

I think buck explained that brain damage after oxygen deprivation at birth was likely. He also pointed out that although it would never be a world beater it could have been a nice reliable little horse with the right owner.
Sadly this little fella got an idiot.

Whilst I'm hardly qualified to contradict a truly remarkable man, I thought that the suggestion that the colt was as he was, because of hypoxia at birth was highly unlikely. Hypoxia would be far more likely to suppress aggression.

The more likely reason was that stupid, stupid woman. She had an orphan foal, reared it in the house as a pet, she "potty trained" it and as an entire youngster, it never learned any respect for humans. Why they didn't geld it, as it was only 3, was a mystery, or failing that, shoot the bloody thing. Through the film, at times the horse had a rope head-collar on, and then off, so someone must have been able to handle it. It seemed to have an abiding hatred for the guy who was attempting to handle it, and I'm surprised that he got away as lightly as he did, through one determined attack.

Apart from the episode with that colt, that was an immensely enjoyable film. He managed to ignore the sins of the father, and came through it all as a lovely man. Respect.

Alec.

 

[jeeve]

I have this tape and his training cd's at home, and his book. He has a nice quiet way with horses, a lot of the NH guys in the US (and here in Aussie), have the same way about them. But no nonsense, does not make excuses for people, tells it like it is.

 

[tallyho!]

Just watched it on iplayer. Too tired last night.

So pleased they covered the pessoa and other "gadgets"!!! Yes!!! He even called it medieval!

The stupid fascination with the head is like some sort of disease we have here - especially in dressage! In the film Buck shows repeatedly throughout how controlling the quarters is the way to get engagement and lightening and listening.

He's not the only one, horsemasters of the past have been showing people how to do it for centuries but why is it so hard for us to learn???

The proof that the horseworld is STILL so fixated on the head is apparent when you walk into a tack shop.

 

[Orangehorse]

That was fascinating, all round. From the "old ways" of breaking-in can you see how the Monty Roberts, et al made such an impact? Even Buck said that is how he started out, it was the norm. So every time someone says "Oh, but we aren't cruel in the UK, these people are crazy" - actually what they mean is what we all saw on the TV - horses were thrown to the ground, and the horses fought until they were subduded. This is also why in the USA horses are often started when much younger, because it is obviously easier to control and break a weaker animal.

As to that colt - fascinating. I have never seen such agression from a horse, he really meant it, didn't he? I am afraid a bullet was the only thing for him. Sadly it is often the case that orphan foals have a sad end as they are uncontrollable if not reared correctly. Interestingly he had a bit of white around his eyes, that is supposed to indicate a bad temper and in this case it was right.

I really liked the way that Buck spoke to the owner, he didn't mince his words, but he didn't raise his voice or get cross with her, he just told it as it was.

Good programme, wish my horse could dance like that!

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Orangehorse, what on earth are you talking about? Are these your facts? You're talking in the present tense about black and white video clips. They start em young in the US before they're big and strong. Poppycock. Greed more than fear. At any rate again like I have explained time and time again. Age is not the reason hotses succumb to injury to a degree. A 5 year old can stil go lame as he's sat around becoming fat living on a couple of acres, rugged up in winter and muzzled in summer because Dobbin gets fat. Dobbin has no exercise. Dobbin is more than likely compromised from the standpoint of being a big weak horse underneath that "mature" looking body. Now that he's mature we break and keep on going on. After all he's 5. A lot more slow fitness work will be needed but nope never consider those facts. These colts used in most starting clinics have lived out on rough grazing of hundreds of acres. At 3 they can handle a bit of work. They are so far ahead of Dobbin in terms of development. Age is a factor but it goes with so many other things and I can't quite wrap my head around the fact people never consider anything else.

Terri

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Oh and Tallyho, I wished you lived nearby. I love your posts.

Terri

 

[ridefast]

Interestingly he had a bit of white around his eyes, that is supposed to indicate a bad temper and in this case it was right.

What rubbish. There is, in my opinion, absolutely no truth in that saying. I have known plenty of horses with white around the eyes and they were lovely. The only explanation I've ever heard for it was from a craniosacral practitioner who said it can indicate tightness, worry or a mental block, showing me this whilst treating a very lovely and friendly horse who as she relaxed lost the white around her eyes.

 

[Well I Never]

Does anyone know if she did put him down, why wasn't he gelded?
Running with stallions, sorry but what do you expect, there is only one in a herd, I can't imagine the bedlam on her yard.
He was ruined from birth would you revive an already dead foal

 

[baileyxboo]

I follow a guy on YouTube called horseawareness, he's really good aswell x

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

I can't find this on catch up on Virgin booooo.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Absolutely rivetting viewing. What a man; such intuition, humilty. And to have come through his terrible unthinkable childhood and do what he does. His family were a reflection of him - just brilliant.
Shame he's not over here doing his clinics.

 

[Mithras]

I think hypoxia at birth could equally lead to aggressive behaviour as passivity; since the neural connections and myelination would be affected, meaning that the reasoning process in response to stimuli would be under-developed. Then if the horse had only been with stallions and never received normal socialisation, aggression could be the only response it had learned.

I was really shocked at seeing a horse behave like that; although I did notice that once it had bitten the handler, it didn't then go for him with its front or hind legs when he was on the ground. It seemed more of a territorial, warning off type of behaviour. But then we only saw a snap shot. Why did no-one think of gelding the animal?

I was really impressed by Buck Branneman, I felt more relaxed just from watching him on tv! Seemed a very intelligent person. Fab programme.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I have a friend who had a hand reared horse and he said that it just wasn't the same as any other horse. It lacked that respectful bond between human and horse, which is understandable as it was hand reared. There is a whole early learning pattern that is lost I believe through hand rearing.
The owner of the colt was very misguided.

 

[Suechoccy]

It's the 2nd time I've seen that film. I found it thoroughly interesting the first time around and this time I saw so much more in it too.

There's conflicting info on the internet as to whether the woman had the dangerous colt killed or whether he's alive and used for breeding.

You can watch just the clip of him attacking Dan (Buck's staff) on youtube but without having seen the 10 minutes of programme of the previous day beforehand, it's easy to watch the utube clip and think "why was Dan doing that?" If you'd seen what happened the day before and how the horse was when in his "stable", then you'd see more of the whole picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FMuIwI8vU

When teh woman said she broke her back, I wondered if she'd broken it on one of her 18 stallions. Potty-training, bottlefeeding and keeping a horse in the house just beggars belief.

You can watch the whole programme again on bbc iplayer on your computer. The whole programme sets the above videoclip in context. Worth seeing the whole programme. I've loved seeing all the calm owners and their young horses all at the starting-clinic, all in the rectangular arena with their tack, doing some groundwork, then being tacked, and eventually ridden, all very very calm and relaxed vibe throughout.

The roundpen canter of 3 of them with Buck cantering behind was interesting and I guess from the horses' viewpoint they were busy keeping their feet and happy being with each other so not so distracted by having riders on their backs?

The cow work was brilliant. Watchng the class of owners and horses relaxing as they put their focus onto cutting the cow out and keeping it from the herd. Good to hear people laughingand enjoying their horses too.

 

[templewood]

Whilst I'm hardly qualified to contradict a truly remarkable man, I thought that the suggestion that the colt was as he was, because of hypoxia at birth was highly unlikely. Hypoxia would be far more likely to suppress aggression.

The more likely reason was that stupid, stupid woman. She had an orphan foal, reared it in the house as a pet, she "potty trained" it and as an entire youngster, it never learned any respect for humans. Why they didn't geld it, as it was only 3, was a mystery, or failing that, shoot the bloody thing. Through the film, at times the horse had a rope head-collar on, and then off, so someone must have been able to handle it. It seemed to have an abiding hatred for the guy who was attempting to handle it, and I'm surprised that he got away as lightly as he did, through one determined attack.

Apart from the episode with that colt, that was an immensely enjoyable film. He managed to ignore the sins of the father, and came through it all as a lovely man. Respect.

Alec.

I agree with what you say. He said the colt was as near a predator as a horse can get. That was nonsense. I've seen this behaviour before. If you look at it from the colt's point of view, he was taken from the only home he's ever known and attacked by people he didn't know. Wild animals have two responses. Flight or fight. He was a young stallion, probably with mares nearby, in a strange place. He couldn't flee, so he fought, as far as he was concerned, for his life. He was one very frightened horse.
I got the impression that she had never put him out with other horses, as she suggested putting him out with her other stallions. The truth was that Buck couldn't do anything for him, as his methods didn't work. In this case, no quick fix. It doesn't mean that the horse had brain damage. Gelding could have made a huge difference.

Naughty horses are a completely different ballgame to frightened horses.

 

[JillA]

Young animals who are not brought up by their mother or a foster/adopted mother miss out on a vital stage of development and socialisation. In humans we call it the Terrible Two's - it is that stage of learning to deal with the frustration that comes from not getting your own way, think tantrum in the supermarket. Puppies removed from their dams too soon miss out on it and become what we might think of as needing "anger management training" lol. Natural or adoptive dams do it by denying access to the food supply and then usually later offer an alternative, but NOT as a reinforcer to tantrums. That is often what is missing in hand reared animals, and there is an optimum time for it to take place, as part of the weaning process. That colt didn't know how to deal with his own anger/fear/whatever and his only available response was a tantrum, regardless of whether or not he was gelded (and presumably there would be practical problems such as having to dart him to sedate him?). I'm not sure he could ever be fixed, and he was clearly one unhappy horse. Euthanasia was much the best option IMO.

 

[moodymare123]

watching it now, what a lovely and talented man.

 

[Well I Never]

Yes I agree that orphans are different, but how many of them are potty trained living in the house!
Then living as an entire with 17 other entries!

And to breed from an animal that dangerous is plainly not responsible. If that rumour is to be believed.

 

[Amaranta]

He is my new hero, I loved his way with the horses, such humility, kindness but commanding respect. I loved the way he said that they were like children and you had to be the parent first and foremost, I have often thought that bringing up kids was not unlike bringing on horses

The colt was heartbreaking and I agree that the owner is the ONLY one at fault here, you could sense his irritation with her during the loading scene. That colt looked to have a fair amount of Spanish blood in him (not a palomino btw but a double pearl). I have never ever seen such aggression in a horse, he really really meant it and sadly, there was only one option for him. Such a waste.

The other thing that struck me was that his horses did not go in that 'on the forehand' way that show western riders horses seem to, but rather in a normal outline, I loved watching the bits where he did the dressage moves, I am completely and utterly in awe of him.

 

[doriangrey]

I can't find this on catch up on Virgin booooo.

It's all on youtube. This is the first part (1-9), it does have Swedish subtitles but they're not off-putting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5xxY8HFr0o

 

[doriangrey]

Young animals who are not brought up by their mother or a foster/adopted mother miss out on a vital stage of development and socialisation. In humans we call it the Terrible Two's - it is that stage of learning to deal with the frustration that comes from not getting your own way, think tantrum in the supermarket. Puppies removed from their dams too soon miss out on it and become what we might think of as needing "anger management training" lol. Natural or adoptive dams do it by denying access to the food supply and then usually later offer an alternative, but NOT as a reinforcer to tantrums. That is often what is missing in hand reared animals, and there is an optimum time for it to take place, as part of the weaning process. That colt didn't know how to deal with his own anger/fear/whatever and his only available response was a tantrum, regardless of whether or not he was gelded (and presumably there would be practical problems such as having to dart him to sedate him?). I'm not sure he could ever be fixed, and he was clearly one unhappy horse. Euthanasia was much the best option IMO.

Very unhappy and it appears terribly confused. This is what I came across (my source is from Youtube)

"-Here is some info provided to me about the horse:
The stallion is back in his pasture and looks like he is leading the same life as before. I have never talked to the owner personally but I am assuming that she breeds most of her 18 stallions. When she signed that pal up for the clinic she didn't tell anyone about the beast that she created. She signed up and showed up for the colt starting clinic and didn't tell anyone about what he really was until they had started. They edited so much of his behavior out of the documentary. Like how when Buck first roped him from the hind leg he would throw himself down on the ground violently and would scream just like a three year old throwing a fit and he did that multiple times. When we wasn't be worked with and was just standing in the pen and a woman walked by the pen he would get hard, run into the panel, grab it and start humping the air and squirting everywhere. If a man would walk by him he would try to attack him as if the man were another stallion. Walking a mare by the pen didn't give that reaction but human women did. When they were loading him it took a long time and every time the horse would start to get near the pen he would start sniffing really deep almost like a tiger would when it smells food and he would follow his nose down to where they had the man crouching/holding the gate to the trailer. That man practically pee'd his pants when the horse would start pawing but Buck talked to him softly and got the man to stand his ground holding the gate. I think the decision to put that little snip it of what happened during the clinic was to add some drama to the film but I don't think it was the best decision because the whole story was never told. Excuse my language but that woman really ****ed that horse up and unfortunately she will not give up ownership to a good trainer."

If all that's true, how on earth do you rehabilitate if it's even possible?

 

[Tinypony]

I've been studying Buck's work for years and if I could be just a fraction as good with horses as he is I'd be very happy. My favourite trainer, Steve Halfpenny, has been described as "Buck, but with customer care", and through him I've become fascinated with the vaquero horsemanship.
There will be a lot of criticism of what he does, and the way he expresses himself, but to me the proof was looking at his own horses and the horses he rides. They are relaxed but not dead between the ears, and have that lovely workmanlike way about them when asked to do something.
What I'm really thrilled about is that this film has given people a glimpse of how "nh" style stuff can be different. Now you know where the roots of Parelli come from, and how far it's travelled.

 

[jeeve]

Steve half penny great, have seen him too

 

[_GG_]

What Buck was doing was so far removed from what the Parelli's of this world do.

That colt, IMHO was better off going home to be hopefully shot...as if it is still in a field somewhere with all of that tension built up, it is no life. However...I am so so glad she signed up to a clinic with a man that was simply not willing to put the horse through any more or risk anyone getting more badly hurt.

I am sure PP and others would have found it far too temping to try and prove themselves and work that colt until it was dead on its legs. Not something I would ever wish to see. Instead, with Buck...he put the horse first and his own agenda/reputation/ego after that. For that, he has my utmost respect.

Shame we can't all be a little more like him really.

As for the owner of that colt and all of those stallions, well, she is the epitome of selfishness when it comes to horses. Should anything ever happen to her, she has condemned her stallions to an extremely uncertain future. It is hard enough finding a new home for 1 good stallion, let alone 18 that probably have less than great manners. Stupid, stupid, selfish and cruel!

 

[Amaranta]

I've been studying Buck's work for years and if I could be just a fraction as good with horses as he is I'd be very happy. My favourite trainer, Steve Halfpenny, has been described as "Buck, but with customer care", and through him I've become fascinated with the vaquero horsemanship.
There will be a lot of criticism of what he does, and the way he expresses himself, but to me the proof was looking at his own horses and the horses he rides. They are relaxed but not dead between the ears, and have that lovely workmanlike way about them when asked to do something.
What I'm really thrilled about is that this film has given people a glimpse of how "nh" style stuff can be different. Now you know where the roots of Parelli come from, and how far it's travelled.

I saw no Parelli there, and would argue that it was not NH but plain old good horsemanship, there is no need for any other label.

To me, Buck Brannaham is the polar opposite of Pat Parelli.

 

[Amaranta]

What Buck was doing was so far removed from what the Parelli's of this world do.

That colt, IMHO was better off going home to be hopefully shot...as if it is still in a field somewhere with all of that tension built up, it is no life. However...I am so so glad she signed up to a clinic with a man that was simply not willing to put the horse through any more or risk anyone getting more badly hurt.

I am sure PP and others would have found it far too temping to try and prove themselves and work that colt until it was dead on its legs. Not something I would ever wish to see. Instead, with Buck...he put the horse first and his own agenda/reputation/ego after that. For that, he has my utmost respect.

Shame we can't all be a little more like him really.

As for the owner of that colt and all of those stallions, well, she is the epitome of selfishness when it comes to horses. Should anything ever happen to her, she has condemned her stallions to an extremely uncertain future. It is hard enough finding a new home for 1 good stallion, let alone 18 that probably have less than great manners. Stupid, stupid, selfish and cruel!

I agree with every single word!

 

[Dry Rot]

It sounds to me a if that colt was a combination of two evils.

Bad imprinting combined with no socialisation/social skills. It views humans as fellow horses (or itself as a human) and has never learnt the social skills of dealing with others, whether they be human or horse.

One poor confused animal with only one logical outcome. As for the owner, another example of good intentions leading to ruin -- in this case of the poor bloody horse! There are plenty of similar stories, unfortunately.

 

[JillA]

Buck and Parelli derive from the same root - Tom Dorrance. Buck learned from Ray Hunt who had learned from Tom, but I have to say, from what I have been told by someone who knew PP back then, I do think he was pretty much like Buck in the early days. Then he (with his new wife) decided to create a global brand, and as with everything, money corrupts, and the ego got in the way. Credit to Buck, with his success with the film he could so easily have grown a mega ego too but he seems not to have.
Bill Dorrance, Toms brother, was still riding regularly at over 90, and he wrote True Horsemanship through Feel (with Lesley Desmond).
I aim to still be riding at over 90 but please God not the brick ***** house of a wide horse I have now bless him Arab x welsh B might suit

 

[YasandCrystal]

Agree far far far removed from the Parellis!

Buck had this 'I don't care, but I care so much' quality that just goes hand in hand it seems with all those great horsemen. Complete control over his own emotions and understood horses like open books. It was like he was simply born to train the world in this manner.
Just great viewing, you could watch and watch this man and never stop learning from him.

 

[JillA]

It sounds to me a if that colt was a combination of two evils.

Bad imprinting combined with no socialisation/social skills. It views humans as fellow horses (or itself as a human) and has never learnt the social skills of dealing with others, whether they be human or horse.

One poor confused animal with only one logical outcome. As for the owner, another example of good intentions leading to ruin -- in this case of the poor bloody horse! There are plenty of similar stories, unfortunately.

I have just known about a lovely horse who was ruined in a similar way. Fantastic bright athletic TB x Lippi, he was raised by his dam but owners (first time breeders) babied him played chase games with him when he was a foal. When he became 17hh of agile young horse with no respect and a penchant for rearing, they sent him to be "schooled " - for which read bullied into submission. He was recently put down because he had no flight response in his dealings with people, only a fight one - a more enlightened trainer took him on but he never did gain any respect for humans. 12 years old and all because of human numpties.