Buck. The real horse whisperer. BBC4.

[templewood]

Flinging a saddle balnket around isn't an abusive approach to you or me, but how does a frightened stallion view it? I'm surprised that Buck hadn't come across horses like this one before, or at least similar ones that weren't so extreme.

It seems to me that Americans don't like their horses to have any spirit, and any horse that shows some must have brain damage/a brain tumor/personality disorder or anything else they can think of to account for why they have failed in their particular method. Why can't they entertained the notion that one size doesn't fit all and that their's isn't the only way?

This horse was very frightened and scewed up and I'm not suggesting that he was just spirited by the way!

Anyway. must go and get my stallion in.

 

[diamonddogs]

...And then it was blamed on the horse...

No it wasn't. He laid the blame squarely at the door of the owner.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I'm asking you what you'd do because you are adamant it's wrong so what would you do. Yes I put getting paid for in there because people with their own horses love to go on about the years they spent fixing Dobbin. That's not the same. And yeah she paid for the clinic. She wanted her horse worked with. A horse she didn't really tell how bad he was til arrival. So they tried an approach that is not needed for 99% of horses and guess what it annoyed people because they couldn't undo 3 years of stupidity of owner for the movie. So now we critise because we know it all.

And no one blamed the horse. Stating what he is is not blaming him. But you clearly know different. What guidelines does the BHS have for these types of horses? What level is that?

As far as what I would have done. Well I'm sorry I wouldn't raise a horse into a monster to start and haven't. What would I do if I was asked to take something like this on? Be honest and say I don't have the skills necessary to deal with this situation. I sure wouldn't pretend I do. Nor criticise a method for dealing with these types. OWNER made types. Blaming the lack of oxygen is no good either. More proper work was needed from the get go instead of feeling sorry for him and babying him along. Would you baby a 2 1/2 month foal that had a head injury that you found flipping over non stop and totally blind in a terrible panic? If she lived would you always let her away with everything just because of the traumatic circumstances? Glad I didn't do that with my lived against the odds 7 yo. And believe me I wanted to. I wanted to put everything down to her head injury. Thankfully my husband is a much better horseman and quite blunt.

Terri

 

[Tinypony]

Buck never blamed the horse. Watch it again and quote any instance where he did.
He isn't responsible for what people on the edge of the arena or sitting around nattering might say, but he never blamed the horse. The closest he came to blame was what he said about the owner.
And... I've just deleted a whole screed because it's kind of not worth the effort really is it? I have read some very critical stuff posted on the Net in the last day or so by some people who have also been reading about a situation where they could have offered some support and possibly help. A chance to put "positive" principles into practice and help a person they knew. But they stayed in their armchairs. So, at least Buck is out there and trying to help, even if he's only a mere mortal and maybe gets some things wrong.
So this is for all of the do-ers, even if sometimes their feet turn to clay.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Are you freaking kidding me? Well this just keeps getting better. Americans don't want their horses to have any spirit? OMG. Forest for the trees. You think that horse was just spirited?

Bye, been fun.

Terri

 

[mle22]

In a lot of ways it's irrelevant how that colt got to be the way it was - it had become a dangerous and vicious animal and the best thing to do is PTS. I can't think of a single good reason not to do it.

 

[Norfolk Pie]

I'm asking you what you'd do because you are adamant it's wrong so what would you do. Yes I put getting paid for in there because people with their own horses love to go on about the years they spent fixing Dobbin. That's not the same. And yeah she paid for the clinic. She wanted her horse worked with. A horse she didn't really tell how bad he was til arrival. So they tried an approach that is not needed for 99% of horses and guess what it annoyed people because they couldn't undo 3 years of stupidity of owner for the movie. So now we critise because we know it all.

And no one blamed the horse. Stating what he is is not blaming him. But you clearly know different. What guidelines does the BHS have for these types of horses? What level is that?

As far as what I would have done. Well I'm sorry I wouldn't raise a horse into a monster to start and haven't. What would I do if I was asked to take something like this on? Be honest and say I don't have the skills necessary to deal with this situation. I sure wouldn't pretend I do. Nor criticise a method for dealing with these types. OWNER made types. Blaming the lack of oxygen is no good either. More proper work was needed from the get go instead of feeling sorry for him and babying him along. Would you baby a 2 1/2 month foal that had a head injury that you found flipping over non stop and totally blind in a terrible panic? If she lived would you always let her away with everything just because of the traumatic circumstances? Glad I didn't do that with my lived against the odds 7 yo. And believe me I wanted to. I wanted to put everything down to her head injury. Thankfully my husband is a much better horseman and quite blunt.

Terri

I actually completely agree with you Terri - I enjoy reading your posts and always think how much experience and common sense comes across in them.
My issue here is not that I would have had better ideas, simply I can't see what the backing process was aiming to achieve?
The horse had been totally and utterly spoilt, in every sense of the word. We don't know what else was happening in her life, I'd hazard a guess at quite a lot, so I'm not going to call her stupid or incompetent, because I suspect she knows that. But yes, she is 100% responsible for that horses problems. And *if* she wasn't prepared to do more than a clinic to try and resolve it, the responsible tng would have been to have the horse Shot.

But the point is she went to a renowned trainer, who quickly assessed the root of the problem, but I should think was caught between a rock and a hard place. So my question is still "please can someone who is saying how fantastic he is (not saying he's not!) PLEASE tell me why backing it was going to equal progress?

Why do I think this is an issue? Because you know as well as I (and as you said in an earlier post)that owners have this strange idea that backing horses is "bash bash bosh, now off they go and do their competitive job"

So it does mildly irk me when things like this are held up as being so marvellous, because to me it's just telling people, "hey, run before you can walk, no groundwork needed"

 

[tallyho!]

I don't think that stallion was frightened. I don't think anything would frighten a horse that high on its own testosterone and was clearly not liking being told he is not boss. He was flinging his manly hood around and sniffing like some sex crazed lunatic.

Isn't that we tell horses everyday? That we are the boss now, do as you are told. The basis of training, the very foundation to get them to respect you as master?

How is it different to the police force here rubbing plastic bags on new recruits and making them walk on tarpaulins or run through smoke?

They were trying to give him a chance, not try and kill him with a sack. Compassion shouldn't come into it... Once you start talking about compassion, well where is the compassion in riding an animal in the first place?

 

[Tinypony]

Email him Norfolk Pie. We don't know if there was a point where he sat down and said "wish I hadn't done anything with that horse", or maybe told people why he wanted to try a rider on his back. Pointless to speculate. As an old-hand clinic organiser, I'd have turned her round and sent her and her horse home before the trainer arrived. Experience has taught me to avoid putting trainers between that rock and hard place and to make the difficult decisions about the clinics I host.
Oh, and maybe he'll be too busy to reply, but what have you got to lose?

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

He can and does reply. Well he did to me a couple of years ago.

NP, going from some of my less experience, starting spoiled over(badly) handled youngsters can give them a totally different outlook. Like the penny drops. Oh this is what it's all about. I'm guessing that was a thought going on because it can and does work.

Terri

 

[LittleBlackMule]

In that film, when Buck is talking about his childhood, he says that after his abuse he didn't need people tip-toeing around him. His didn't need to discuss it or be treated differently because of it. He needed to WORK, be given a job to do.

I suspect that's why he appeared in a hurry to get the colt ridden (although in reality it took a lot longer as so much footage was cut). Groundwork was not an option, as he himself says in the film, because the horse was too dangerous to be with, and the safest place was on his back.
Hence cutting to the chase and getting him ridden, so he, like Buck, could be given a job to do, and maybe stand a chance. But of course, it was too late..

 

[Norfolk Pie]

Email him Norfolk Pie.
Oh, and maybe he'll be too busy to reply, but what have you got to lose?

Fair point, and yes I could, and I may, although I could equally ask several other "branded horsemanship" people why they appear to do the same - sort of skip a stage or two - having previously been involved in one with similar (no where near as drastic!) issues (ie not complient on ground, but still ridden, quite erratic at demo and subsequently worse when owner got it home) I got the answer " "audience want to see it"
Lovely person , massive respect for what she does, but that is putting showmanship above horsemanship, which, sadly, destroys a lot of the admiration and respect I have for people.

I would suspect (I don't know, and I'm not pretending to!) that was the case here - good TV, bit of drama, looks impressive if the next stage (which I'm not attributing to the backing) hadn't been quite so .......drastic

My original post was more asking if anyone else here shared the same opinion, or had a better understanding, as everyone was so in favour. Perhaps I am just too cynical, but if I don't understand something, I tend to be a little hesitant in saying "LEGENDARY"

 

[Norfolk Pie]

NP, going from some of my less experience, starting spoiled over(badly) handled youngsters can give them a totally different outlook. Like the penny drops. Oh this is what it's all about. I'm guessing that was a thought going on because it can and does work.

Terri

Thank you for that - and yes, I can understand that - give them a completely new challenge that they don't have all the answers for, I can imagine would sometimes be enough to turn them around.

Personally, I have questions with expecting horses to cope with mounted walk trot canter in one session, but I appreciate that is my perspective, and I am well aware a lot of people see no problem with it

 

[AengusOg]

Good point. I suspect it is because of where they started from - so-called horsemanship in the early days in the US was very harsh - sacking out is one example. Hard people in hard times and they didn't have time to desensitise etc, but unfortunately the habits die hard. Hence the so called Horse Whisperers, a million miles away from waht people were used to. Over here we had the cavalry but we also had professional grooms looking after the mounts and carriage horses of the wealthy, so I guess they had the luxury of more time to spend with the horses.
Because of the harshness of the horsemanship in the US when someone with humane methods came along they collected a following, like the Dorrance brothers. Over here lots of people were used to being kinder to their horses and able to see things from the horse's viewpoint. That's how I see it -

The US was originally populated by native peoples. The were a kinda red colour. The 'white' people came from all over Europe, Britain included, and they took their horse-handling skills (good and bad) with them.

http://www.houseofnames.com/dorrance-family-crest

That was the way of it.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

I'm asking you what you'd do because you are adamant it's wrong so what would you do. Yes I put getting paid for in there because people with their own horses love to go on about the years they spent fixing Dobbin. That's not the same. And yeah she paid for the clinic. She wanted her horse worked with. A horse she didn't really tell how bad he was til arrival. So they tried an approach that is not needed for 99% of horses and guess what it annoyed people because they couldn't undo 3 years of stupidity of owner for the movie. So now we critise because we know it all.

And no one blamed the horse. Stating what he is is not blaming him. But you clearly know different. What guidelines does the BHS have for these types of horses? What level is that?

As far as what I would have done. Well I'm sorry I wouldn't raise a horse into a monster to start and haven't. What would I do if I was asked to take something like this on? Be honest and say I don't have the skills necessary to deal with this situation. I sure wouldn't pretend I do. Nor criticise a method for dealing with these types. OWNER made types. Blaming the lack of oxygen is no good either. More proper work was needed from the get go instead of feeling sorry for him and babying him along. Would you baby a 2 1/2 month foal that had a head injury that you found flipping over non stop and totally blind in a terrible panic? If she lived would you always let her away with everything just because of the traumatic circumstances? Glad I didn't do that with my lived against the odds 7 yo. And believe me I wanted to. I wanted to put everything down to her head injury. Thankfully my husband is a much better horseman and quite blunt.

Terri

I wouldn't do the leg/rope thing because I wouldn't know where to start with it.
But have no qualms about the chap using it if it was effective. And it was to some extent but then it all seemed to get a bit carried away and the principles explained earlier about pressure/release went out the window.

That's where it lost me.

If a person makes an assessment that a horse needs that level of control, then keep it up surely?
After the first day, repeat and consolidate any progress made. And only if progress is made ease up on the control.

I don't understand the thinking that says one session can make so much difference to years of mismanagement.

I agree with Tallyho, I don't think the horse was scared one iota with the blanket thing. Confused, irritated and completely unaware of how he was expected to react. So instead reacted how he always reacted.
So what protection/control did the trainer have at that point?
And how was that supposed to install "boundaries".

It's got to be a rule of thumb surely that you don't get into a losing battle because that's going to make things worse.

 

[teabiscuit]

If that one session is the first time the horse has had to do as he's told that can be the start of a turning point. Didn't seem towork for this horse.

 

[diamonddogs]

I'm wondering why there's some scepticism going on about the horse being brain-damaged.

Stupid Woman said that the foal was to all intents and purposes stillborn, but they decided to resuscitate (assuming she was telling the truth - I think she was; it's omission and stupidity she was shown to be guilty of, not lying). She didn't seem to know how long it was deprived of oxygen for. So why is it not feasible to some on here that it WAS brain damaged?

If it was my foal, I wouldn't have resuscitated, specially as the mare didn't survive, but if I had done, knowing it might have learning difficulties from the outset, the first time it showed dangerous tendencies I would have had it shot then. Didn't she say she drove a golf cart at it one time to stop it attacking someone, and it ended up attacking her in the cart?

But then I wouldn't have hand reared the foal without expert guidance, in my house, and I wouldn't have potty trained it either.

 

[doriangrey]

I probably keep repeating myself, but the difference between the colt and a 'dominant' kind of horse was miles .... miles apart. This colt was defending himself - he was acting like a lot of bottle reared horses that know no boundaries, no fear and can produce real savages - I doubt it would have made any difference it he was a gelding or a mare under the circumstances. However, he was entire and of course had all that kind of resource, intelligence and pride that comes with being a stallion - which in the right hands can be the best kind of horse. Apparently the owner enrolled in the course without divulging his history or how bad he was (from what I have read and am speculating from the documentary), and she told Buck that he was oxygen deprived from birth and that was the cause of his problems but I believe this kind of revelation came later, almost an excuse from the owner. After watching the documentary I don't believe Buck knew what he was getting into as I don't believe he would have put his aide in with that poor colt. I must admit, that Buck knew that this colt was beyond his - or tbh even more traditional starting methods - and that is why he was high-tailed home, and kudos to him for admitting it. I disagree with him blaming him for being entire for bad behaviour, but he was a pretty cool guy and an amazing horseman. If there are any animal behaviourists out there they will be able to explain so much better than me how an orpan foal needs upbringing and why proper imprinting and education is so important. If that colt is fixating its sexuality on humans instead of horses, I'd imagine it would be impossible to change that behaviour now.

 

[teabiscuit]

I've never seen behaviour like that. Thank goodness. In the DVD Buck is shown comforting the clearly distressed owner in one of the extra clips you get. I thought that was cool. Whatever her wrong doings she wasn't deliberately cruel. and her mistakes are educating others.

 

[Cortez]

The only horse I've ever had turn on me was a hand reared orphan (it was a client's horse). I don't think brain damage has anything to do with the colt's disordered personality, but the owner should have a SERIOUS rethink about the way she treats her horses.

 

[doriangrey]

^agree, obviously I don't know for sure, but I don't think it was brain-damaged. Horses know we are humans and I think that is how we are able to have such symbiosis (spelling?) with them. When the boundaries become blurred that's when problems occur.

 

[AengusOg]

In that film, when Buck is talking about his childhood, he says that after his abuse he didn't need people tip-toeing around him. His didn't need to discuss it or be treated differently because of it. He needed to WORK, be given a job to do.

I suspect that's why he appeared in a hurry to get the colt ridden (although in reality it took a lot longer as so much footage was cut). Groundwork was not an option, as he himself says in the film, because the horse was too dangerous to be with, and the safest place was on his back.
Hence cutting to the chase and getting him ridden, so he, like Buck, could be given a job to do, and maybe stand a chance. But of course, it was too late..

In that clinic situation, and because the thing was being filmed, Buck may have got carried away and tried too much too soon with that colt. I think he would have been better to have given him the job of sweeping up first, before he threw him at the deep end as head of the company

The man who was ultimately injured seemed to be in a very vulnerable position much of the time, and at times seemed a little blase in his handling of the horse. He didn't seem to have much instinct for the situation.

Buck said groundwork was not an option, yet he flapped his flag around a bit and, as long as he combined that with advance and retreat, the colt took some notice and was manageable. In my opinion, he should have made alternative arrangements for working the horse over a longer period of time, and trained him from scratch, progressively, over a period of several day or weeks.

 

[Tinypony]

In my opinion, he should have made alternative arrangements for working the horse over a longer period of time, and trained him from scratch, progressively, over a period of several day or weeks.

Do you think that was an option for a trainer who is on the road 9 months of the year? And, ultimately, it was the owner's responsibility to make long-term provision for her horse, not Buck's.

 

[Fellewell]

I'll lay money there were plenty of things he could have done with that colt (some of which would not meet with HHO's approval) I don't suppose his head lad would have been tiptoeing through the tulips either if the cameras hadn't been on.
But faced with an excuse-laden snivelling owner what was the point? She had neither the wherewithal nor inclination to build on anything he did.
When she was 'pleading' with the colt to load, well, the look on his face said it all.
I thought all cowboys carried a gun.

 

[teabiscuit]

Is that what you would have liked to see fellewell? Some cowboys getting rough?

 

[Fellewell]

You can oversimplify it if you like.

 

[YasandCrystal]

He can and does reply. Well he did to me a couple of years ago.

NP, going from some of my less experience, starting spoiled over(badly) handled youngsters can give them a totally different outlook. Like the penny drops. Oh this is what it's all about. I'm guessing that was a thought going on because it can and does work.

Terri

^^ Exactly this. It teaches them some manners and the horse to listen. It's not about the 'riding or competing' at all, it's about acceptance, trust and respect of their handler imo.

Since I have been longreining my 4 yr old her attitude has improved no end. She is far more respectful and has an ear on me

 

[tallyho!]

LOL... sorry shouldn't laugh.

I can just imagine one of us HHOers, going up to him and attaching lunge-lines to his face so he can learn respect and manners

Do we start a collection for a funeral now, or later?

Yes, can imagine a badly handled youngster accepting it but that deranged colt is not equal to a badly handled youngster... he was a monster that was a human creation and I don't even think castration would have solved his many problems. Poor soul.

I'm not that experienced and if I were to meet him face to face I'd have pooped my pants!!!

 

[YasandCrystal]

LOL... sorry shouldn't laugh.

I can just imagine one of us HHOers, going up to him and attaching lunge-lines to his face so he can learn respect and manners

Do we start a collection for a funeral now, or later?

Yes, can imagine a badly handled youngster accepting it but that deranged colt is not equal to a badly handled youngster... he was a monster that was a human creation and I don't even think castration would have solved his many problems. Poor soul.

I'm not that experienced and if I were to meet him face to face I'd have pooped my pants!!!

Yes lol I wouldn't touch him either - completely ruined colt!

The point was just about 'sacking out' generally and why it is done and that doing the same with the colt wasn't all about 'riding' him per se. Too late for the colt I would pts.

 

[teabiscuit]

Fellewell I'm interested to know if you think roughing him up, for want of a better expression, would have worked with this horse?Genuine question.