Building topline - using straights?

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Bounty

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I have a 10yo TB gelding (535kg) who is recovering from KS surgery.
Currently he is on approx 1.5kg of Alfa-A, 3mugs of Baileys Lo-Cal and a scoop of unmollassed sugar beet; split over 2 meals.
He has been doing fine on that up until now, but his rehab programme has just stepped up significantly and he is now not continuing to build muscle as he was, and is a little 'flat'.
I want to keep this base ration the same as he has been doing well on it, and at this point I don't want to make any drastic changes and risk him going loopy on me - bronking on the lunge won't do his back or my nerves any good!
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I know Dengie suggest that I can up his Alfa-A portion by about 1kg, but he isn't wild about it at the best of times.

I was thinking of adding in a little barley and a glug of vegetable oil and seeing how we go. Do you think this would be OK?

Any other suggestions?
 
My horse doesn't much like Alfa-A either, I think it is hard on their mouth because the pieces are sharp. I would give him some crushed oats rather than barley, if you want to use a straight feed. A small amount of oats won't make him bonkers, but it does make them want to eat the Alfa-A.
 
Tracey - why would you choose oats over barley, just out of interest? As far as I know, barley (micronised) is more easily digested and higher in protein than oats.

Holly_P - forgot to add he is having Biotal Equine Gold as well, which he is doing really well on. The EG and the Lo-Cal should be making sure he is getting everything he needs and can utilise as best as possible.
Will investigate EquiJewel though, thanks
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I had a horse that came out in itchy bumps when I fed it to her, so I got in the habit of using oats instead. My Mare loves them and in the winter when she needs a bit more weight on, it makes the difference. It is very cheap to buy a bag of oats vs a bag of mix. Or it used to be ...

I think good quality crushed oats are a forgotten feed. They are high in fibre, high in natural oil and fed in sensible quantities they don't make the average horse silly.
 
Do you wet your feeds? Mine gobble their tea, Alfa A with TopSpec, they have it pretty sloppy....

I have before and after pics of Holz on TopSpec, her topline increased ALOT, and kept it through her pregnancy
 
Tracey - it did used to be! I have to shut my eyes and ears when I go to the feed merchants now, it is ridiculous. But, the farmers have a tough time producing it I suppose. Doesn't make me any more able to pay the prices though!
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CM - Yep, feeds are quite sloppy. He is just a very slow, delicate and moderately fussy gentleman
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He was on TopSpec previously and looked well on it, and I haven't noticed any change in his condition on the Lo-Cal (been on it since Feb) until now, it's just that his work has doubled.
 
Ermmm...quite a lot of conflicting views on here...! If you want to build muscle/condition without risking your horse going mad (especially since he has had major surgery) step away from the straights and cereals altogther!!! Cereals are high in starches (not high in fibre as someone else said) which will give a horse that instant energy. If my horse had just come out of surgery no way would i want to risk putting any cereals near him, just incase he did himself a mischief! Also starights are not particularly high in quality proteins either, so will not help to build muscle that well. Go for something like Outshine/Equi Jewel as someone else suggested which are based on oil (slow releasing energy) rather than starch and sugars. Or, go for a low starch conditioning feed, such as Winergy Equilibrium Condition. At least then you know that a) your feed will be well balanced b) you will giving quality proteins for muscle build up and c) you are not going to risk making your horse into a loon! Also, dont forget that you cant just feed for muscle - that can only come from correct excercise, the quality protein will just ensure that there are the 'building blocks' there when the horse needs them!
 
Thanks for the reply kittykatcat.... though I think you have misunderstood my OP a little.
I am happy with the diet he is on, he is doing well on it. I just need a little more 'something' to help prevent him going flat on me and to help in terms of condition.
He has not 'just' come out of surgery - he is 4months post op now, and working for an hour and three quarters every day.
I am suggesting gradually adding the barley and oil, using his behaviour/condition as a guide as to when enough is enough. I think that is much less likely to upset him than completely changing his diet!
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The Lo-Cal will ensure he is getting everything he needs (including the quality proteins), the Equine Gold helps him to utilise that as best as possible.
I find your comments re. [ QUOTE ]
you cant just feed for muscle - that can only come from correct excercise

[/ QUOTE ] rather patronising TBH, and they obviously come from someone who clearly has no concept of the rehab involved following KS surgery.
 
You need the right nutritional building blocks to build muscle through correct work. So you need good quality protein which you are getting from the Lo-Cal but I'd go Outshine too, by choice, for some extra slow release calories and additional good protein.

By the way, of all the cereals, oats are the highest in fibre so Tracey01 wasn't far wrong with her comment.
 
I just really dont understand your horse's diet! You're feeding Baileys Lo Cal - but you want to help him maintain condition, you're worried about him becoming too loopy, but you're thinking of feeding a straight?!?! Sorry, but i find it all rather conflicting. Now you have explained yourself a little better, i would suggest something like Spillers Slow Release Cubes with Alfa A - can get rid of balancer and wont need to use barley. Then if you feel that he is still a little flat, add some Slow Release Mix. I personally really like that range as you can use all the feeds together to get the right combination for your horse.
 
True JaneB - oats do have the highest fibre level, but i would not describe them as 'high in fibre' i.e. i would not feed them to a horse that needed a high fibre diet - that's what i meant!
 
Thanks Jane, I will be looking into the outshine.

KKC - the lo-cal is just used as a balancer, for vits/mins. It has good quality protein in it, and the Alfa-A has loads of protein too, plus the absolute shedloads of fantastic hay he is eating (ad lib).
Not all horses go loopy on straights - you should be careful what rumours you listen to
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I am intrigued that you are so anti the inclusion of straights, but will happily recommend an energy mix? Could you enlighten me as to which concoction of straights Spillers use to create their 'slow release cubes/mix'.... ?!
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Actually, i believe, in the Spillers Slow Release Cubes, the inclusion of straights is next to none, the starch level is only 12%, for a full breakdown i'm afraid you will have to ring their careline. As for why I would always go for a mix rather than a straight...lots of reasons...you can never really be sure of the nutritional breakdown of straights, nor of the quality - mixes and cubes have to go through rigorous testing before they are allowed out of the mill. Straights tend to be deficient in quality proteins as well as vitamins and minerals so you end up having to add a balancer and mixes are so much easier! Not that i would feed a mix really - quite lucky as both of mine are good doing, forward going horses so they dont need anything like that and i prefer to feed them what they are naturally supposed to eat.
 
Whilst I can understand your concern about cereals, which aren't always suitable for all horses, I really can't understand why you are so opposed to straights in general. Straights are just single, unsupplemented foodstuffs, and ones like alfafa and unmolassed beet are useful fibre feeds and surely shouldn't be maligned?
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And all compound cubes and mixes (including the Slow Response Cubes mentioned) are formulated from a mixture of straights!
 
oh dear its getting a bit heated!!

All I know bounty is I want to keep my feed very easy...going to be saracens super fibre pencils, alfa a oil, equi jewel (but not for another 6 weeks...gonna wait until shes lunging) and also some pink powder for now!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply kittykatcat.... though I think you have misunderstood my OP a little.
I am happy with the diet he is on, he is doing well on it. I just need a little more 'something' to help prevent him going flat on me and to help in terms of condition.
He has not 'just' come out of surgery - he is 4months post op now, and working for an hour and three quarters every day.
I am suggesting gradually adding the barley and oil, using his behaviour/condition as a guide as to when enough is enough. I think that is much less likely to upset him than completely changing his diet!
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The Lo-Cal will ensure he is getting everything he needs (including the quality proteins), the Equine Gold helps him to utilise that as best as possible.
I find your comments re. [ QUOTE ]
you cant just feed for muscle - that can only come from correct excercise

[/ QUOTE ] rather patronising TBH, and they obviously come from someone who clearly has no concept of the rehab involved following KS surgery.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think poster meant to be patronising - in fact I thought it was a good reply to your question.
I too would kick the lo cal balancer, why not swap to a balancer with more conditioning properties, thus achieving both things in one feed.
I would recommend the outshine, I just add this to my usual feed for that little bit extra which is maybe all you need.
 
I would have thought switching to a stud balancer wouldn't be a bad idea. Also Dengie do some stuff called alfabeet which is alfalfa and unmollassed sb in a pellet which you soak. Have to say looks like a cowpat in their feed bowl but they seem to like it. Could be a way of getting more alfalfa in?
 
Doris - I feed Lo-cal because I have a number of horses and need to have a base ration that suits the majority of them.
Life would be very complicated if I bought separate products for all of them!
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Rubyred - would that be OK? I know the extra protein levels are appealing, but what about the elevated levels of vit e, selenium etc.... won't they cause a problem?
Have tried alfabeet as a partial forage replacer thing when he was on boxrest, he HATED it! He refused to eat it the first time, and when I tried to offer it him again he chucked the bowl out over the door
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Luckily the others had no aversion to slurping cowpat!
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(And I still have the gunk all dribbled down the doors and walls to prove it
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)
 
I'm not a nutrional expert but I have been recomended a stud balancer by a saracen nutrionist for my own (adult) horse and my friend feeds the baileys one to hers on their advice.
Saracen told me to feed their prep mix and top up vits with their stud balancer when he needed less feed. Since then I've met someone who works there who said essentially the prep mix is just the balancer, sb and oats mixed with some molasses so that's what I'll be feeding next season!
Shame about the cowpats. Not sure what else to suggest! Know people get on well with equijewel but that could end up a bit pricey.
 
Try soaking Alfa pellets along with the sugar beet to make a mash and switch from Lo Cal to Outshine, add it to the bucket just before feeding.

Alfalfa is supposed to be a conditioning/muscle building feed in it's own right but it's hard to feed enough in the form of chop, it's also bitter on it's own but mixes well with beet. Outshine is a good oil substitute as well as being a vitamin supplement and works out quite economical too.
 
Sorry for causing such a heated discussion everyone!!! But this is an open forum and you will get conflicting views when you ask for opinions - no need to shoot these down!!

TGM - i know what straights are but the poster was referring to barley so i was really referring to 'straight cereals'. Anyway, i'm outta here to go and feed the ponios (no cereals shhh!!)
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Rubyred - thanks, I think I will ring Baileys and speak to them
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I have the stud balancer here anyway, so that could be good.

Custardsmum - where would I get Alfalfa pellets from? and would mixing my own with sugar beet make it any more desirable to him than the alfabeet do you think? He hated that!

kittykatcat - I have enjoyed our discussion, I much prefer meaningful discussion/debate (without name calling/personal attacks) over all the fluffy posts. I hope you don't really feel as though I have shot you down though?
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*Bounty considers adding in some name calling to lower the tone of the reasoned debate!*
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[ QUOTE ]
TGM - i know what straights are but the poster was referring to barley so i was really referring to 'straight cereals'. Anyway, i'm outta here to go and feed the ponios (no cereals shhh!!)
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[/ QUOTE ]

Must be crossed wires then - I was worried that you saying that:

[ QUOTE ]
step away from the straights and cereals altogther!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

would make people think they shouldn't feed non-cereal straights such as alfafa, grass products and beet!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Custardsmum - where would I get Alfalfa pellets from? and would mixing my own with sugar beet make it any more desirable to him than the alfabeet do you think? He hated that!

[/ QUOTE ] Dengie make alfafa pellets - if your local feed merchants have Dengie products then they should be able to order the pellets for you even if they don't have them in stock. Simple Systems should also be able to supply them.

If you mix them with an unmollassed beet then I suspect you will have the same palatability problem you got with AlfaBeet. An alternative would be to mix them with bog standard molassed sugar beet - would be cheaper for you and tastier for the horse, just depends whether you want to avoid high sugar levels or not.

(Alfa A Original contains some molasses, which probably explains why he currently will eat the combination of Alfa A and unmolassed beet. Dengie alfafa pellets and Dengie AlfaBeet are not molassed.)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Dengie make alfafa pellets - if your local feed merchants have Dengie products then they should be able to order the pellets for you even if they don't have them in stock. Simple Systems should also be able to supply them.
If you mix them with an unmollassed beet then I suspect you will have the same palatability problem you got with AlfaBeet. An alternative would be to mix them with bog standard molassed sugar beet - would be cheaper for you and tastier for the horse, just depends whether you want to avoid high sugar levels or not. Alfa A Original contains some molasses, which probably explains why he currently will eat the combination of Alfa A and unmolassed beet. Dengie alfafa pellets and Dengie AlfaBeet are not molassed.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This was pretty much what I was going to say, the palatability with most feeds comes from the added sugar/molasses which I have to avoid with my older horse. That said he's quite fussy but I weaned him last winter off the sugar and he will now happily eat alfa/beet especially if I add Outshine at the last minute, he seems to like the crunchy texture and taste, it's linseed based and most horses like linseed. It's a bit like having kids who only eat if everything has tomato ketchup on it, we spoil them!
 
Fibre beet I have found to be more palatable than alfabeet (not sure why though)and also the topspec cool condition an conditioning flakes have the ability to add a little something without sending them sky wards!
 
Sorry, can't recommend how to do it using straights but I'm in a simliar position regarding topline.

I'm trying to build up topline on my native (diagnosed with Bone Spavin in the summer and on a rehab programme to get him working better) and Baileys suggested Lo Cal Balancer and Alfa A Oil to start with - he's been on it about 3 weeks and I can see difference already. Which Alfa are you using, my pony loves the oil, licks the bucket for ages.

My saddler highly recommends the Outshine for topline without loopiness but Baileys suggested I see how he goes on the Lo Cal first. Instructor recommended Sumo for topline too.

Good luck finding the right feed, it is a bit of a minefield.
 
I have used outshine too, i actually have no ideas on what you would feed a horse following KS surgery, but i do know that i have used it to great effect and it didn't make my mare who has in the past been nicknamed 'the devil' loopy. She was perfectly behaved and it did wonders for her condition.
 
I think on a forum everyone will always have different veiws on feeding, some daft, some good. Best bet is to ring a varienty of feed lines, get opinions from the experts, as if one feed has been a miracle feed for an individuals horse, another horse may react completely differently. at least a nutritionist will have seen/heard it all. Phone a few feed companies and see what they say. Good luck.
 
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