Bunny hopping/changing legs behind in canter?

[Ginn]

Firstly saddle checked ~3 weeks ago (and problem is shown when not under saddle), saw vet 1 week ago and will be having a follow up i a week's time (different problem but flagged up to vet who was not concerned for the moment due to no heat/swelling/lameness in W+T), teeth do need doing (and will be done within next few weeks - needs to be coordinated with vet and clipping lady for sedation purposes), back is fine.

Horse is completely sound in walk and trot on both reins. Is coming back into work so lacks strength and suppleness.

Lunged under saddle with roller and loosely fitted side-reins to headcollar. In canter on left rein everything hunky dorey but horse is more balanced on this rein and was also more settled. On right rein, if settled, all ok though tendancy to fall in through shoulder and bend to outside causing a lack of straighness. If slightly "oomphy" horse rushes in canter and bunny hops or tries to change legs behind - as if trying to go faster than balance, direction of bend and size of circle will allow for level of strength and training. Horse is shod and was being lunged on "greasy" grass.

Would you put this down to lack of balance, suppleness, strength and schooling coupled with a weakness on that rein and slippy ground conditions, given total soundness in W+T even on small circle, and that on a large circle in a steady, calm, slow canter on rein of concern no obvious problem - only as horse accelerates?

Or would you be worried?

 

[Farma]

How old is the horse?

 

[Ginn]

Horse is 6

 

[Farma]

How loose are the side reins? What happens if he is in an outline and on the bit?

 

[Ginn]

Side reins fixed to sides and are elasticated. Horse falls onto forehand in canter if shortened to place in outline, and although they do slow the speed if horse rushes doesn't seem to affect/prevent odd hind leg movement if it happens. In many ways horse better when looser as able to balance better but doesn't stop problem - its as though both hinds come to the ground within a second of each other. As said, horse doesn't always do it and better when calm and settled.

Will try and find a vid on youtube...

 

[dafthoss]

Mine used to do it when he was that age. It was his way of trying to get out of work he found hard, his canter has always been the weakest pace so his little pony brain worked out that was a way to get out of it. Admittedly I didnt help by putting him back to trot for a few strides then asking again as it was exactaly what he wanted but then I had a lesson and instructor told me to stop being so soft on him and carry on cantering. Less than a week later he stopped doing it and hasnt since and before he went on his break his canter was starting to feel really grown up.

 

[cellie]

My horse was six when I bought her and very anxious sensitive type.Every time I asked for contact or if she didnt understand command she would change her legs.My mares basic ground work had been missed,with help of great instructor who rode her for several sessions and lessons she is now settled and working really well .I know have her balanced and working properly and she is fabulous to ride.Her sj has improved as well no skipping on corners anymore.Do you have instructor ?

 

[Ginn]

OK, this vid is very similar to what is happening (less the bucks and not quite as fast!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThIGUrNlzds&feature=fvsr

Will share my opinion after some more responses but interested in other's views before commenting.

 

[lucemoose]

i have known lots of mare do this on lunge- like both their hinds hit the ground simultaneously. often happens during seasons - so mild discomfort, or when they are un settled and then once they work well problem goes

 

[Ginn]

Dafthoss - that is interesting as horse is worse at end of lunge session (same thing 2 days running) rather than at beginning of session (after warm up).

 

[cellie]

i have known lots of mare do this on lunge- like both their hinds hit the ground simultaneously. often happens during seasons - so mild discomfort, or when they are un settled and then once they work well problem goes

Thats interesting for me too as my mare had marble fitted two years ago and has improved overall with lessons and general way of going,she had big problems with behaviour.

 

[juliap]

My horse was bunny hopping & going off on the wrong lead when he wasn't right earlier this year. He was never lame in the sense that he was always level but resisted going forward & when lunged with the vet was bunny hopping or disunited.

Back was checked and no heat swelling anywhere on legs.

We never did establish what was wrong - bone scan came back -ve but some time off & a slow build up back into full work resolved it, I suspect it was muscular.

Possibly some discomfort somewhere esp if only on one rein.

 

[coss]

would i be worried? - not necessarily but depends on the horse...
is this a new problem?
My pony used to go disunited to do a canter/trot transition - would literally throw himself disunited (and did this in the field loose, playing with field mates so naturally chose it rather than rider/equipment) it took a lot of suppling work - spirals, leg yielding, shoulder in/out, haunches in/out to strengthen and supple him and to get him more on the aids so that i could stop him throwing his back end out - eventually it stopped although it comes back when he's tense, when tense he doesn't move through his back and as such the back legs can't work as efficiently and so breaking canter and going disunited can happen (though still less often than it was - even on the lunge )
So his was age/breed/coldback/tension issue...

Another horse i ride is a friend's horse. Her canter was one of her best paces but she had a fall in the field and according to a chiropractor "popped" a hip out, and said chiro "popped" it back in - how true this is i'm not sure for several reasons that don't belong here - so there is the possibility that she had jarred something she began cantering haunches in and on trying to correct she would do as you describe, disunite and/or the back legs would come together rather than being in the 3-beat rhythm. She was given time off- had a foal etc and on a dental check (she'd had yearly checks but a different dentist on this occasion) found a slab fracture - so a lot of pain in the mouth, how much this contributed to her way of going is unknown (problem over too long a time scale) - however, if that had been there at the time of the canter issue, the effect of the rein would have caused more pain in the mouth. As a result she carries a lot of tension in her jaw and when i started riding her she would sometimes come together with the back legs in canter, however she'd rarely disunite (possibly partly as i'm used to holding a canter true due to my own pony). lots of strengthening work and working on her softness in her jaw and tension (still a work in progress) - she canters straighter and no long has the canter issues as described, if she threatens to do it i push her on and really ride the canter so she can't use it to get out of working....

So yes - there could be cause for concern.. or it could be age related, you'd only want to push them on through it if you could trust they'd have secure footing so as not to lose balance further. Other tacts are to hold the canter together more - all depends on the horse though...

 

[dafthoss]

He did it when I was asking for less run and trying to get him sitting and taking his time rather than running round leaning in like a motorbike as fast as he could . He was perfectly sound in all paces but would do it more on his weaker rein, he would also change in front some times a few strides later once he learned that it didnt stop the work and made it harder then he realised that it was best to stay on the right leg. But as I say that was around a year ago now and he hasnt done it since.

Its obviously hard to know if its the same without seeing it but it was just another of his evasions that he came up with

 

[kerilli]

i'd put 99% of it down to the slippery ground and the fact that he's shod, tbh. i bet if you lunged him on a secure surface he would move totally differently. it sounds as if he went into an extremely defensive way of moving to try to stop himself from slipping. ime most horses are a lot better balanced on the left rein, they bend that way more naturally and find everything easier.

 

[charlie76]

Our horse Was like this. Turned out To be sacroilac pain an psd in both hind leg's. Never looked lame as it was so subltle and bi lateral

 

[elsiex]

Hate to worry you but my mare has had 6 months of investigations due to this exact behaviour.

I never once thought she was lame, however she started cantering with her quarters in and just wanting to tear off around the school. When I asked her to sit (very sensitive in the mouth) and wait she would bunny hop, change legs behind, which almost felt like a buck. She didn't always do it, but would do it on the lunge as well.

I have been through hell with three different vets telling me there is nothing wrong with my horse! Due to my persistence, and fighting tooth and nail for a referral, she has just come back from the RVC with bilateral lameness (hence why she looked sound!!), bone spavin, poss ringbone, kissing spines.

I would get it vet checked if I were you. I went through months of hell!

 

[Tnavas]

Do you have a lunge cavesson? You will have far more control and effect on the shape of the horse if you use a lunge cavesson as you have the liine to the front of the nose - wherever the nose goes the rest follows.

Lunging from a headcollar allows the horse to turn its head to the outside so you develop wrong bend.

Try a lunge cavesson, fit side reins either to the bit ring or to the outside rings on the cavesson.

Use your whip as if it were your inside leg, just behind the elbow and use your lunge line as you would your outside rein, use half halts to encourage balance to improve. Make sure that you send the horse forward.

You say the back is OK - did the vet check it or did you get a chiro out. Bunny hopping and cantering disunited is often a sign of back soreness.

 

[Winklepoker]

I would say a combination of the surface being too deep, the horse being too unbalanced and a slightly locking stifle on the right hind.

 

[Ginn]

Thanks for all the replies. I wanted to hear what others had to say before introducing my opinion.

Having seen the horse loose in the field this hasn't been a problem and infact horse is quite happy to throw some mores and leap around in its usual way (a very playful monkey at the best of times) which i suspect it would find more difficult if there was anything other than a tweaked muscle. I do stand to be corrected though.

If it was bilaterally lame then would expect the same response on BOTH canter reins, which isn't the case, leading me to think it is a balance issue (horse is much stronger and more balanced on other rein).

If it was lameness on one leg then would expect lameness in W+T which is not the case.

Asked vet to take a look at back when discussing problem - all was OK, slightly tight in hamstrings but as horse 1) behaves like a loony in field and 2) is coming back into work, was deemed to be as expected and no real cause for concern - lots of stretching with decent warmup/cool down and keep an eye. Back specialist also looked at it and same conclusion - some tension but no more than to be expected with level of training and msucle development. Deffo no soreness.

Horse ridden (and cantered) under saddle on grass 4 days prior to 1st lunge sesson and was fine. Needs to be more through and activate outside hind in the canter and in general needs to learn to sit more behind but this horse has had a fair bit of time out of work an as above lacks strength and balance so am currently attributing this as the cause. Admittedly only cantered out of short side, down long/across diagonal, coming back to trot before next bend due to this so may well exhibit same problem on a 20m circle but felt unfair to ask this of horse on a slippy, grassy field with current level of balance.

Given 3 days off (had done 4 days work - hack, faster hack (again no probs), slower hack, school (above session)) then 2 days of lunge work and problem manifested only towards end of session where horse was tired and spooking at gale force winds. Was only meant to be 1/4 of a circle but horse had other ideas.

Re lunging of headcollar - horse has ALWAYS been totally anti pressure around nose and absolutely will not work in lunge cavesson due to its tightness around nose. Happy enough in headcollar with lungeline clipped to side (rather than ring for leadrope) to help avoid problem mentioned above, though I agree it is non-ideal. Have also considered 2 reins but horse tends to overbend. Horse is incredibly tricky in mouth (always has been - purely character) hence being very cautious about what contact goes to bit when lunging as it can create problems when ridden. In W+T horse is lovely, deffo forwards and working nicely over back.

My thinking is the ground is horrid (hard base, slippy top, trippy length of grass) but its all we currently have and horse is deffo more unbalanced on R rein so this is probably main factor.

Plan to work with I *think* should be build up strength, suppleness and balance on lunge in W+T and slowly introduce a few trans to canter for 3-4 strides once this has improved, only on a big, big circle and when ground isn't too bad (i.e. not after recent rainfall with slippy ground). Don't push horse through it as balance issue and not on stable surface. Under saddle stick to what I'm doing (short bursts on straight, building up, lots of transitions) and build up this way too. If no better/worse when vet up in 10 days have a rethink. But not to worry for immediate future as mostly easily explained???

 

[Rowreach]

I had something similar with my 6yo mare - bred by me, backed by me as a 4yo and produced by me, so I know her entire history and training. She was fine in walk and trot (marginally better on the right rein) and fine in canter on the left rein, but on the right rein was stiffer, quicker, reluctant to go into the outside rein and would frequently change behind. I train regularly with a FBHS and an I and both said they thought there was nothing wrong other than a weakness and gave me exercises to work through in an attempt to resolve it.

I went to a training camp at the end of July and I wasn't happy, so I spoke to my vet and took her to him for a work up, and sure enough he found the problem. She presented no lameness or even stiffness, but as a rider I was finding it difficult to sit on her right hind, and knowing her as a truly lovely horse who would do anything she could for me, I was sure there was an issue there somewhere.

Vet diagnosed an SI injury which had been there some time (only thing I can think is she had an incident in a trailer the first week she was backed). She had SI injections, a few weeks off, then a lungeing programme before reintroducing ridden work. She is a totally different horse, straighter, lighter, more balanced, and producing some fabulous work for me

She has made me realise that I should never ignore my instincts even when someone far more qualified than me tells me there's nothing to worry about - she's been trying to tell me something for 2 years and I couldn't quite hear what she was saying Perhaps if she'd bucked me off every time I got on I'd have paid more attention

 

[BeckyD]

QR: I had a similar situation and it turned out to be sacroiliac pain and bilateral PSD. After treatment for both he never did it again. Plus the canter was much more uphill and powerful. Don't mean to be the bearer of gloom, sorry!

ETS: he could throw some real shapes around the field and gallop round until he was a sweaty puddle, but whilst suffering from his injury, you could definitely see that something wasn't right, so if your horse looks OK in the field as you say, then that's got to be good news!

 

[Ginn]

Thanks both.

As I said earlier I would be very suprised if it was a bilateral lameness (e.g. caused through bilateral PDS) as it is only on the one rein - I would expect similar issues (though perhaps not to the same extent?) on the other rein if this was the case. Likewise, if there was a lameness/issue with the one leg then I would expect to see signs in W+T which there aren't. Hence currently working on the assumption that this is not a cause for concern.

I do agree that she could have a SI tweak but more likely to be muscular as only very recent problem and not affecting other areas of work. Therefore I'm thinking that avoiding activities which exaserbate this, e.g. trying to canter a 20m circle on slippy ground, and encouraging her to stretch and work in a soft, loose frame, building up strength and suppleness, keeping work easy and considering what to do with ground conditions would be the best way to go for the moment?

Obviously should there be no improvement/deterioration then would have things properly investigated but am thinking this is jumping the gun for the moment due to the above described reasons.

Good to see that the opinions generally suggest this as a course of action with a *but be aware that this could also be the cause so don't completely ignore* experiences too.

 

[mik]

I agree, I would canter only on a good surface and not in circles until suppleness in the trot had built up. Use lots of loosening exercises in trot especially leg yields and shoulder fore, especially in large areas, and when the leg yield is easier in trot i would start to use it in canter, very little but enough to encourage stretching.I would also build up the work very gradually and be careful not to tire the horse or force any movements when the muscles are tense.
I think if it was my horse I would have a physio come and see it regularly to monitor muscle growth etc. (and to loosen any tight bits!)

 

[Ginn]

Very lucky in that have a physio around to take a look most weekend

Think you managed to say what I was trying to far more eloquently than I did too!

 

[ihatework]

I'd be concerned and keeping an eye but not rushing out to do anything major at this point. Do be aware that the symptoms you describe are classic hock and/or sacro pain symptoms, an no horses are not always obviously lame from it.

From that video clip I would say the ground would have a huge influencing factor and I would strongly recommend you do not lunge on that surface at all - if you don't have a lame horse now then you might in the future by lunging on that, especially given her reaction.

 

[Ginn]

Video clip is not of my horse - merely used to demonstrate what I was trying to describe. Difference was horse was not going as fast, not bucking and pulled up pretty quick because I was not prepared to push on with that movement and lack of balance on a grass field.

Do agree that it is something to watch out for and *could* be something more sinister but equally my (inside my head debate) was whether I was right to be worried and if so whether it should be wrt watching carefully and working on the balance sensibly, working within limitations of surface, or whether I should have the horse booked in a full work up next week without giving benefit of doubt, time and carefully schooling first. Hence the post to see what other responses were before sharing my own judgement and conclusion - which was careful, educated and informed one despite the I care about my horse so am I wrong with this conclusion niggle.

Unfortunately some of us don't have the luxury of a nice surface, flexi hours etc so in order to keep horse in work over winter months (baring in mind I leave for work at 7am and rarely get home before 7pm) is to work in the field 2-3 times/week and hack at weekends. Add to that... horses by their nature are adapted to work on grass/natural terrains rather than artifical surfaces and no, I won't work my horse in crappy or deep arena but I do expect the ability to walk, trot and canter on grass (and they manage it well enough when turned out on the stuff). Where I do make an educated judgement is what I ask when working a horse on it i.e. size and gait of circles etc.

But then it is always useful to have a detached perspective

 

[debsflo]

Our horse Was like this. Turned out To be sacroilac pain an psd in both hind leg's. Never looked lame as it was so subltle and bi lateral

^^^^^

exactly this with my mare..

 

[Ginn]

For those of you who have had hock/suspensory/SI problems...

Did you notice any difference if the horse was buted up?

Horse in question (and I realise I should have said sooner!) started a 5day course of Bute on Tues for unrelated treatment - 2 sachets, twice a day, for 5 days. Had Tues, Wed, Thurs and Fri off then lunged Sat and yesterday. No real difference between 2 sessions.

To me this says that it is *unlikely* to be pain/discomfort related - if it is worse this week now bute finished then that may suggest otherwise - but having no experience of the above injuries/strains etc would be interested to hear other's views.

Charlie/Debsflo - in addition to the above, in your experience did it only affect 1 canter lead or both and was there any detectable lameness in W+T?

 

[mik]

I know of a few cases of sacro injury, serious, that were manifested on on side and it takes proper progressive nerve blocking to locate the actual area.
From all that you have said, check her ovaries for cysts and keep a good physio on hand. Have a chat with the vet if you feel nerve blocks would help you locate a problem. If you have a nagging doubt then follow you instincts. She is your horse.