Buyer hasn't paid, where do I stand?

[mynutmeg]

Learn something new everyday! I always presumed you pay if you want to have a horse on loan.

I think they do in the states - they do leases over there that you do pay for but I've never known it here. If you do a part loan then you often pay in towards the horses keep but on full loan the owner has little to no cost and the loaner pays all the upkeep

 

[honetpot]

Crumbs she 'not a girl she is a women.
I would send her a letter by recorded delivery giving her to a certain date to pay the money or else you take her to the small claims court for the rest of the money, its not that expensive to do.
You should have all the paperwork, but really it just might a fire under her a***, if it a good pony she will want it in summer, do not wait to the end of the school holidays.
If she sends it back, bung in a field and put it on the PC web site for full money. You have to get tough

 

[yhanni]

I have been in this situation twice - once with a horse and once with a car! Both because I sold to friends and didn't have a proper written contract/agreement. However, we organised that they set up a monthly payment for a small, affordable (to them) amount and, luckily, both parties agreed. The horse is now paid for and the car almost. However, if the worst comes to the worst, I would probably just be grateful that your horse has got a home where she is loved and cared for and let it go. Not easy I know!

 

[be positive]

I think they do in the states - they do leases over there that you do pay for but I've never known it here. If you do a part loan then you often pay in towards the horses keep but on full loan the owner has little to no cost and the loaner pays all the upkeep

Leases do happen over here but they are usually higher value competition horses or ponies that the owner wants to keep control of yet still get some return for their investment, a normal lease fee is around 10% of the value annually, so for a £20k horse £2k per year plus insurance for the full amount and running costs, it is not common but can work well especially for outgrown ponies when a younger sibling is not ready to go onto it or a real schoolmaster that the owner does not want to retire or sell.

In this case it was a normal lowish value horse that was loaned.

 

[mperson01]

I was in a similar situation where I agreed a price for my mare who was on loan. I waited a lot longer for the money than was agreed, and was paid over about 18 months in instalments, but did in the end get the whole amount. For me, money wasn't really an issue, as I knew my girl was happy where she was, and because myself and her loaner (now owner) have stayed friends, I still get updates on her, see how she's doing at comps and occasionally meet up with both our horses to ride together. Ultimately if I hadn't got paid, I'd probably have gifted her.
I guess it may be a question of where your priorities lie, how much you need the money, and whether you want to sacrifice a future relationship with the loaner/owner by getting tough.

 

[be positive]

Crumbs she 'not a girl she is a women.
I would send her a letter by recorded delivery giving her to a certain date to pay the money or else you take her to the small claims court for the rest of the money, its not that expensive to do.
You should have all the paperwork, but really it just might a fire under her a***, if it a good pony she will want it in summer, do not wait to the end of the school holidays.
If she sends it back, bung in a field and put it on the PC web site for full money. You have to get tough

It is not expensive to take it to court but the result will probably be payment by installments anyway so why not try to arrange that without paying the costs, if she then defaults the case will be clear if and when it does go to court.

Unless she is a teacher school holidays are not relevant, if it gets sent back it is not that easy to sell from a field, there will still be rent to pay, daily checks to be made, feet to trim/ shoe, time to show to people and if she doesn't sell quickly she will be gradually worth less as she loses fitness with winter approaching, bunging a horse in a field is not the most sensible option.

 

[Theocat]

Slightly surprised how many people seem to be accepting of the idea that just because it's a good home, the OP should write it off and let it go. A good home has value - but so does a good horse; she has already halved the value, so why should she let the horse go for half that again?

 

[rifruffian]

OP.....you have been presented with a chance to be generous.

 

[Theocat]

OP.....you have been presented with a chance to be generous.

!!!!!

Agreeing a purchase price that was half the horse's value was fairly generous.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Slightly surprised how many people seem to be accepting of the idea that just because it's a good home, the OP should write it off and let it go. A good home has value - but so does a good horse; she has already halved the value, so why should she let the horse go for half that again?

I agree, why basically give a good horse AND tack away for 1/4 of it's worth just because it is starting to be a hassle getting the required money.

OP stick to your guns, give her a formal letter stating when the total amount is due by and if it isn't paid take the pony and kit back. If it is a good pony it will sell on again quickly so minimal costs in the long run.

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

The OP has to be realistic. The person only paid for half the horse, and payments have been dragged out. So IF the OP wants the horse back, they need to pay back what has already been accepted as part payment.

Also they need to find the money to afford to keep the horse in the mean time, whilst its up 'for sale' - which they say they can not afford to do either way.

If they did get the horse back to sell it, what's to say that it would pass a vetting? then what would the OP do? or what happens IF the horse has an injury whilst waiting to be sold.

Summer holidays are here now, with a wide choice of other horses up for sale before we head into Autumn - could the OP afford to keep the horse until spring next year IF it didn't sell this year?

To be honest, a decision has to be made, just leave the horse with the current person, its loved, cared for and not costing the OP any money.

For the sake of arguing over another £1000 quid... what it will cost in paying the ''current'' owner back the part payment of £1000 and then the cost of keeping the horse whilst trying to sell it. Seriously, what is the point??

The horse is safe, looked after, the OP does not want / cant afford to keep the horse. Surely the home is far more important than trying to argue about money.

Sign the horse over with a written condition, that they get first refusal IF/Should this horse get put up for sale. And put the whole experience down as a big learning curve of life.

Sorry - but this is my opinion. I'd rather know the horse is in safe hands, then getting into a situation where fighting to get a horse back that you cant afford, to then end up selling it to a dealer and not knowing where its gone.

For the sake of this horses future.. give up the remaining £1000 quid.


OR... just reading over this thread.. you agreed to sell the horse for 2K including tack. Then IF the saddle is worth a good few hundred pounds (higher end), agree she can have the horse for what she has paid so far... BUT your taking the saddle to sell to recoup some money.

That would be fair all round.

 

[popsdosh]

I agree, why basically give a good horse AND tack away for 1/4 of it's worth just because it is starting to be a hassle getting the required money.

OP stick to your guns, give her a formal letter stating when the total amount is due by and if it isn't paid take the pony and kit back. If it is a good pony it will sell on again quickly so minimal costs in the long run.

Legally that cant be done ,so many think it can im shocked . The buyer up to now has paid half even though obviously struggling ,I am sure they have every intention of coming up with the rest. Only the OP knows the ponies true value and I guess that will be difficult to realise now so they have this dilemma go to court and try and get their money which most likely will be over a long period or take action that leads to the pony coming back which they have already stated they dont want.
I personally take very little regard of what breeders and breed societies value stock at as its in their interest to keep it high.
Personally I dont think the OP is the only one being played with here!!

 

[be positive]

!!!!!

Agreeing a purchase price that was half the horse's value was fairly generous.

I agree, why basically give a good horse AND tack away for 1/4 of it's worth just because it is starting to be a hassle getting the required money.

OP stick to your guns, give her a formal letter stating when the total amount is due by and if it isn't paid take the pony and kit back. If it is a good pony it will sell on again quickly so minimal costs in the long run.

I find it quite amusing that this horse has increased in value overnight, it's original estimated value was £3.5k, we have no idea if it was insured for that value or if it was realistic, of which in excess of £1k has been paid so about 1/3rd not 1/4 which would make it's value now over £4k, we have no idea if the original value would have been realistic but the agreed price half way through a 1 year loan when the OP decided that loaning was no longer a viable option was £2k, don't forget originally the horse was loaned for 12 months with a possible extension, it was the OP who changed the terms and put the loaner in the position of having to buy or lose the horse, I think payment terms are fair as long as the loaner sticks to them.

 

[JillA]

Sorry, haven't had time to read the whole thread but I had a similar situation with a saddle a few years ago. I pointed out that the ownership didn't transfer until the final payment had been made, and it concentrated her mind to find the last couple of payments (I suspect she had sold the saddle on so couldn't return it, so that was technically theft as she didn't actually own the saddle at that time). Ask a legal advice line if this is the actual legal position?

 

[Antw23uk]

I missed reading the last couple of pages but it sounds to me like this woman has no intention of paying you the rest of the money. I'd say they have been told several times that what she has paid so far (just over 1k) is more than enough for said horse and she is just being dishonest about saying this!

Why not tell us about the horse, what it does/ done/ can do, age, height etc and see what value a bunch of us bored at work horsey nutjobs come up with? People have told you its worth 3.5k but maybe its not! People have probably told the loanee its only worth 1.5k with tack!

This woman knows you cant take the horse back because you cant afford it and she is sitting tight until you give in and write the rest of the money owed off.

 

[ihatework]

Rock and hard place most definitely.
At the end of the day you have both entered into an agreement of sale (the background is fairly irrelevant) and purchaser is defaulting.
You need to keep this friendly but calm. They owe you approximately £1K?
I'd try and get them to set up a standing order of £100 a month until balance is paid.
Perhaps discuss with them that the alternative might be to put the horse up for sale and refund them their money (or if horse is worth more they could take 50%)?
I'm bloody minded enough that I would see it through and risk having the horse back, just because I hate people that go back on their word!

 

[FinkleyAlex]

Legal eagle here. Basically you've got a contractual agreement (albeit via messages and emails rather than in one document) with this woman that she is to pay you a certain amount by a certain date. If she has not done so, she is in breach of contract and you can make a debt claim against her online in the county court - this will be quite cheap.

What I would do, is say you need x payment by x date and let her know that if she doesn't comply with this you will be issuing a claim in the county court to recover your money from her and also intend to recover the legal costs of doing so from her. Why should she be entitled to get away with it? In future get a properly drafted agreement drawn up.

 

[scats]

Could you speak to the buyer and perhaps agree that she set up a standing order, perhaps meet her half way so to speak and say you would just like a further £500 now, rather than another £1000? Not ideal I know, and I would make it clear that you are disappointed that that you didn't get the money in the time frame as you felt it more than fair, but for the sake of the animal having a good home, you are willing to reduce your agreed price.
You obviously aren't in a position to a) take the horse back and b) refund her the money instantly.

I do wonder whether outside influences have told this loaner that the horse is not worth that much and she is just sitting tight and hoping you will give up and sign it over.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Learn something new everyday! I always presumed you pay if you want to have a horse on loan.

that would be a lease over here, they do occur but much more rarely. Shares are a type of lease.

 

[teacups]

Based on what you say happened: you had a contractual agreement (in writing, you said, I think?) for you to sell the horse + tack to her for £2000. She has so far only paid half the purchase price.

You don't have to take the horse back. If she has paid you £1K, she still owes you £1K.

The people who say she owns half the horse are legally incorrect - but you shouldn't take the word of people on a forum for that (including mine, obviously), as the sheer quantity of incorrect legal advice spouted on forums is normally fairly impressive. Ring the BHS helpline if you're a member, or ask the CAB about basic law of contract.

At this point you can take her to the small claims court (hassle and upfront expense) or try to set up a payment plan - e.g. £10 a week, or how about £100 per month.
My bet is she will make a few payments and then start to miss them (£100 per month feels like a lot to people like her), or promise to set up payments but never do that. But who knows, you may at least get a bit more money.

If she doesn't pay she is at risk of you taking her to court, and that you will be awarded costs (i.e. the costs of claiming in court) + the £1K, which you will then try to get back from her. So she will owe you more money. She may not like the idea of that.
Getting the money after winning the small claim may involve a payment plan, again. Or bailiffs, or further legal action. However, if she is someone who does not want a court order for non-payment on her record (e.g. if she wants a mortgage in the future) just the threat of taking her to court may get you a result. If she already has umpteen court orders against her name the threat is useless.

But at the moment you've given her 6 months to not even have to think about you - now you need to start hassling her so that it's less trouble to pay you and get rid of you. Start by writing a letter setting out the fact that she's missed her payment deadline, and ask that she pays the full amount within 14 days of the date of the letter. Say if she doesn't, you may have to take further advice or action and this may put her at risk of costs. After 14 days you write another letter (assuming she hasn't paid), stating that you haven't heard from her since the last letter nor received any money. Ask once more for full payment within 14 days of the date of the letter, and this time say that if you don't receive the money or hear from her you *will* have to take further action to recover amounts due, which may put her at risk of further costs.
If nothing has been received after the 14-day deadline has passed, write another similar letter. Point out that a court order for non-payment will affect her credit rating. After that, you should take legal action, but another letter is fine, too. She needs to get the idea that you mean business, and that you will not go away if she ignores you. The letters will also demonstrate to the court that you have given her chance to pay or to get in touch to say why they can't/won't pay.

As I said, don't take my word for it - please get your legal advice anywhere but from a forum ;P

 

[abbijay]

I don't understand people who are happy to get involved in informal credit arrangements with people who they know are struggling for money. Personally I think the OP should insist the loaner takes out a financial loan of their own to cover the costs of the horse and it stops being her problem - give her say 30 days to sort the cash or you will take further action. You can't buy a new washing machine and just tell them you'll pay for it when you have the money - they might be able to offer you credit but it will always be a legal agreement backed by a company who are managing the risk.

 

[DD]

are you a BHS member? if so ring them for advice also see citizens advice. if they say its ok to repossess the horse the horse then arrange for a transport company to go get thwe horse and take it straight to public auction on the same day. it will be sold there horse is gone problem solved.

 

[Goldenstar]

are you a BHS member? if so ring them for advice also see citizens advice. if they say its ok to repossess the horse the horse then arrange for a transport company to go get thwe horse and take it straight to public auction on the same day. it will be sold there horse is gone problem solved.

Well OP's problem is solved but it might not go wel for the horse .

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

It is interesting reading all the comments. And people are quite right in what they are saying - but what about the horse? I read the horse is happy where it is, safe, loved, looked after. For the sake of now grumbling about £1K... that has not been paid from an extension to another extension.

Is the saddle worth anything at all, pop down and speak to this lady and say, you will sign horse over to her, with an agreement IF horse is to be sold, you want first offer - but your taking the saddle to recoup some money.

Give the horse a groom, a hug and tell it that its going to be safe and alright and not end up at a knackers yard or dealers yard for the sake of £1K. What it would cost to keep the horse until it was sold anyhow, the OP would not get much back.

Is this thread about principle or greed ?

Anyhow - that is my opinion, I just hope the horse comes out a winner in all of this. Flipping Humans.

 

[Lintel]

hopefully someone has been in this situation and can offer advice. I put my mare out on loan nearly 2 years ago with the idea being that she came back to me after a year (loan agreement drawn up stated 1 year unless both parties agreed to extend). Circumstances changed and i realised i wasn't in the position to have her back with me, so i decided to possibly sell her, giving first refusal to the girl she was on loan to. It's a fab home for her and she's thriving there so i'd feel happy knowing she was being sold to a good home.

The girl loaning her said she'd jump at the chance to own my mare outright but said she couldn't pay it all in one go. We agreed a sale price which was below market value i think, again i was happy with that because of the good home she's in. We agreed that it would all be paid by a certain date however that wasn't adhered to, and i'd only received a sixth of the amount by the agreed date.

The buyer said she really wanted to keep my mare so i offered a 6 month extension. That meant she'd have a full year to pay from when we first agreed she'd buy.

Unfortunately that extension has now passed and i've still not received the full amount. I've received just over half of the total amount. My patience is at an end and the whole situation is now really uncomfortable.

What do i do now?

Any advice welcome.

judge rinder

 

[Luci07]

You not a very empathetic lot are you!

Girl in question could be struggling and finding it hard to confront. Owner has already given a good deal and may not be in a position to write off a further £2k.

Talk to CAB for clear correct legal advice so you know where you stand. Then approach buyer again, say you can see she is struggling so rather than keep leaving it, you want to agree a formal payment plan with her. Ask her what she can afford and negotiate it to what you feel is acceptable. Get a signed contract and a DD. Offer her a solution and you might just get a better outcome.

 

[Cecile]

It is interesting reading all the comments. And people are quite right in what they are saying - but what about the horse? I read the horse is happy where it is, safe, loved, looked after. For the sake of now grumbling about £1K... that has not been paid from an extension to another extension.

Is the saddle worth anything at all, pop down and speak to this lady and say, you will sign horse over to her, with an agreement IF horse is to be sold, you want first offer - but your taking the saddle to recoup some money.

Give the horse a groom, a hug and tell it that its going to be safe and alright and not end up at a knackers yard or dealers yard for the sake of £1K. What it would cost to keep the horse until it was sold anyhow, the OP would not get much back.

Is this thread about principle or greed ?

Anyhow - that is my opinion, I just hope the horse comes out a winner in all of this. Flipping Humans.

If you sign over a horse, that's it, you have no rights to say you want first offer if it is to be sold. You have signed any rights away!

How does the OP know its not going to end up in a knackers yard or dealers yard, the person who now has this horse could be thinking of making a quick buck once its handed over especially if she gets it cheap. The OP would have no say in that either

No idea who is going to pay any vets bills if this horse becomes sick or sorry for itself, its not bought and its not sold and money seems short all around, this is indeed a muddle that would give me nightmares and I would be pulling my hair out by now

I hope the OP can resolve this in an amicable way with the loaner/buyer.

 

[WelshD]

I had a bit of sympathy for the buyer till I saw they were 30, thats plenty old enough to deal with your commitments

The average 30 year old can get their hands on £1000 inside of 24 hours if they are solvent

OP what I would do next would depend on various things - I would certainly take a look at the buyers Facebook, if they are constantly seen out on the town on on holiday, nice new car etc I think I would be more inclined to come down on them harder than if they dedicate their money to the welfare of my horse.

It would also depend on what I would do if I called the sellers bluff and ended up with the horse on my doorstep

One option may be to say to them that you are so short of money you have no choice but to try and sell your tack to recoup some of their missed payments, faced with the prospect of no riding they may rustle up some more cash

As regards the value of the horse the price was set and both sides agreed to it, no good saying now that the price is off target, the time to discuss that has well passed

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I just want to say that anyone I have ever met, who has sold a horse or anything else via an informal payment plan like this, the buyer has stopped paying before the agreed total is reached. To anyone thinking of doing this, even if it's your best friend, just don't do it. If you're having an informal payment plan, keep hold of the goods until the final payment is handed over. Once people have the goods they have absolutely no incentive to pay you, apart from their conscience, and far too many people have dubious morals to be able to rely on this.

I actually dont care about the legalities of it, if I was the OP I'd go get the horse back, tell the person they have a week to find the rest of the money, then if it's not paid sell the horse to a dealer and refund everything they have paid (less the value of the tack, unless they hand that back to the OP too). They know they've done wrong, they know they owe OP and they know they don't want to pay. They're not very likely to take OP to court because it will mean admitting their part in things, and they know darn well they won't come out of it looking good. A decent horse sold to a decent dealer has a fair chance of finding a decent new owner, so nobody loses out, except the person who lost a good horse due to messing around over payments.

 

[mynutmeg]

I had a bit of sympathy for the buyer till I saw they were 30, thats plenty old enough to deal with your commitments

The average 30 year old can get their hands on £1000 inside of 24 hours if they are solvent

I'd love to know what world you live in that it's easy to get hold of £1000 in 24 hours with the prospect of being able to actually pay it back on the sort of incomes a lot of people have. You can be on a lowish income and still be classed as solvent without debts but not be able to take on that sort of debt