brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Why are there (pure breed specific) unreg'd dogs and would you buy one?
Buying a NOT KC reg'd pure breed.
- Thread starter brighteyes
- Start date
blackcob
🖖
I bought one but not a puppy, she was a six month old private rehome and I didn't know any better at the time. Take it from me, if there is even a tiny possibility that you will ever work or compete the dog, even if you're just starting out for fun, get the KC registered puppy.
Excepting a handful of breeds where there could be legitimate reasons for not registering because the breed is not yet recognised or they actively opt out of the KC system, there's almost no good reasons for not registering and plenty of bad ones.
Excepting a handful of breeds where there could be legitimate reasons for not registering because the breed is not yet recognised or they actively opt out of the KC system, there's almost no good reasons for not registering and plenty of bad ones.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
It's a hell no from me.
There is no proof a dog is a pure anything without a DNA test linked to an existing database, registration papers with an FCI body are not a 100% guarantee without that DNA link, but they help.
Without papers you definitely cannot say it is a purebred, it might as well be a mongrel or a cross (nothing wrong with that, just don't sell it as a purebred/with the same price tag) and as BC says if the dog shows aptitude for any discipline it will make life so much harder and you won't be able to health test in some cases.
I have dealt with so many people who are now at a dead end because they either did not do their research or the person who sold them their dog basically defrauded them 'oh yes, the papers are on the way'.
The usual reasons are tightness/laziness on behalf of the breeder, or irregularities in one or both breeding animals, in that they are themselves unregistered, too young/too old to breed, overbred, etc etc.
I'd usually say 'too closely related' also but I have seen dogs with FCI kennel club registrations recently which were half brother/sister and uncle/niece breedings.
There is no proof a dog is a pure anything without a DNA test linked to an existing database, registration papers with an FCI body are not a 100% guarantee without that DNA link, but they help.
Without papers you definitely cannot say it is a purebred, it might as well be a mongrel or a cross (nothing wrong with that, just don't sell it as a purebred/with the same price tag) and as BC says if the dog shows aptitude for any discipline it will make life so much harder and you won't be able to health test in some cases.
I have dealt with so many people who are now at a dead end because they either did not do their research or the person who sold them their dog basically defrauded them 'oh yes, the papers are on the way'.
The usual reasons are tightness/laziness on behalf of the breeder, or irregularities in one or both breeding animals, in that they are themselves unregistered, too young/too old to breed, overbred, etc etc.
I'd usually say 'too closely related' also but I have seen dogs with FCI kennel club registrations recently which were half brother/sister and uncle/niece breedings.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I'm not 100% sure but it is probably because they wouldn't pass a reg (won't pass health score) or one/both of the parents didn't pass a health score.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Does the English kennel club have parents passing health tests as a requirement for puppy registration? I don't believe so. It should.
blackcob
🖖
There's barely any breeds that require health testing for registration (as opposed to recommending) - I can only think of Cardigan Welsh Corgis:
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Often bitch has had too many litters to register?
buddylove
Well-Known Member
I have miniature long haired dachshunds, you tend to find that those that are non KC registered turn out to be cross bred, normally with a bit of terrier in there some where. You can't tell when they are pups but it is obvious when they grow.
There are also a number of health tests that are required for KC registration.
A lot depends on your chosen breed, with every breed, once you have done your research you will come across many issues with non KC dogs.
There are also a number of health tests that are required for KC registration.
A lot depends on your chosen breed, with every breed, once you have done your research you will come across many issues with non KC dogs.
blackcob
🖖
There's no required health tests for registering miniature dachshunds unless you're a KC Assured Breeder, and then only for PRA, the rest are recommendations only. It's deeply disappointing that the KC couldn't make the ABS the gold standard that it ought to be.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Maybe I was dreaming the health check then, sounds like it should be though!
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
The GSD breed fraternity has been asking for low HD scoring on the parents to be a prerequisite for registration of puppies since, oh, ya know, the 1970s. And latterly low ED scores.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
And bitches are being bred back to back with 2 litters in one year, they won't register the second litter. Breeders doing this are asking their licensing authority (if they are a licensed breeder and many are not) to try to sway the KC decision not to register. Sadly it is just another aspect of greed and money making. The unreg litter will still make plenty of cash.
buddylove
Well-Known Member
I don't think I've seen a KC pup advertised that wasn't PRA hereditary clear, so just assumed it was a requirement!
blackcob
🖖
It's easy to achieve that one because someone else has already done the work ? I've never done a health test on my own dog but he's hereditary clear for two diseases and my understanding is that his offspring would be also, were he mated to a clear bitch. KC are putting a stop to that from 2022 though - Kennel Club limits ‘hereditary clear’ status
Moobli
Well-Known Member
My hubby has non registered (as well as registered) working collies on the farm and lineage and paperwork is less important to him than the ability of the actual dog in front of him. Having said that, he knows the lines behind almost all of his dogs despite not having papers.
Personally I wouldn’t buy a dog in my breed without it being registered, especially as I like to check the health of past generations as far as possible as well as finding it very interesting to research relatives.
Personally I wouldn’t buy a dog in my breed without it being registered, especially as I like to check the health of past generations as far as possible as well as finding it very interesting to research relatives.
suebou
Well-Known Member
We register all of ours, I can count on the fingers of one hand anyone who has ever asked.
Hepsibah
Well-Known Member
I bought an unregistered chihuahua. She was pet quality, not show quality so the breeder didn't register her. I had no problem with that at all as I wanted a pet. I did get a copy of her pedigree.
I think it is a not irresponsible thing to do. If it isn't going to be part of a breeding programme to enhance a breed, making it less attractive to backyard breeder types can only be a good thing.
I think it is a not irresponsible thing to do. If it isn't going to be part of a breeding programme to enhance a breed, making it less attractive to backyard breeder types can only be a good thing.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
How can they tell they are pet quality at birth?
Hepsibah
Well-Known Member
It's probably not decided at the moment they emerge. 
The lady I purchased from kept the best to show and sold the rest unregistered but with their pedigree papers.
The lady I purchased from kept the best to show and sold the rest unregistered but with their pedigree papers.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Do you mean a home made pedigree/the parents' pedigrees? You can't get a kennel club pedigree for any dog if it is not registered.
The only way to tell if a dog is definitely not show quality at that age is a colour fault or a physical fault (incorrect tail/ears/coat, too big, too small, bad character etc).
The only way to tell if a dog is definitely not show quality at that age is a colour fault or a physical fault (incorrect tail/ears/coat, too big, too small, bad character etc).
Lipglosspukka
Well-Known Member
I have an unreg whippet.
Parents were both working dogs. I was invited to watch dad work and there was plenty of footage of mum too.
I think in future I will buy a KC reg pup though with all relevant tests etc and pay the premium.
Parents were both working dogs. I was invited to watch dad work and there was plenty of footage of mum too.
I think in future I will buy a KC reg pup though with all relevant tests etc and pay the premium.
Hepsibah
Well-Known Member
I mean a non-kennel club pedigree with my dog's lines going back ten generations. My pup had floppy ears.
Attachments
Christmascinnamoncookie
Fais pas chier!
That would be my top suspicion, although pre-Covid prices would not make this a particularly valid reason unless it’s a breed that commanded high purchase prices.
My two aren’t KC registered and the breeders gave me the most ridiculous ‘pedigree’ including Drakeshead (Labrador!) names and a chow! I didn’t care at the time, but I very much doubt I would buy unregistered again. I’d like hip and elbow scores, given Zak has hd and Bear has an elbow issue.
tda
Well-Known Member
That would be my first thought too.
The Bouncing Bog Trotter
Well-Known Member
We had a Labrador bitch that we took on after her owner no longer wanted her. She had the requisite number of KC litters, then a few unregistered Labrador litters followed by several litters of labradoodles. When we took her on her teats were nearly on the floor. I remain very sceptical of any litter from pedigree parents that are not KC registered, for the same reasons as Ester and tda.
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Thanks everyone - it's much as I expected! Trying to convince my brother to rehome something older with a known history for temperament at least and genuine reason for the rehome and a sound breeding backstory.
Annette4
Well-Known Member
We got very lucky with Fizz however I've had my fingers burnt with Dobby and besides a select couple of people I trust we will be going for a pedigree KC reg pup next if we don't have another rescue.
Btomkins
Well-Known Member
Even if they are KC registered and from an assured breeder you need to do your homework. It is absolutely no guarantee.
I inspect for councils under the animal licensing regulations including dog breeding.
Not many people are aware that the coefficient of inbreeding % is only an optional higher standard and nowhere in the minimum standards (up to three star) is there any requirement for a COI % below a certain figure.
For example, I have recently inspected a three star breeder who is a kennel club assured breeder and her COI % for the last 10 litters or so is over 30%. The breed average is approx 11%. I find it shocking and I’m horrified I can approve a three star licence on that basis.
Even the kennel club seem to frown on it but will register her as an assured breeder!
Quote from the KC website:
To put your result into perspective:
0% = a dog with two apparently unrelated parents (based on all available pedigree information)
12.5% = the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a grandfather to granddaughter mating, or the mating of a half-brother/sister
25% = the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a father to daughter mating, or the mating of full-brother/sister
More than 25% - inbreeding is accumulative, so if it has occurred to a significant degree over several generations, the inbreeding coefficient may exceed 25%
How on earth would the general public be clued up on this when they expect an assured breeder to be the gold standard?
I inspect for councils under the animal licensing regulations including dog breeding.
Not many people are aware that the coefficient of inbreeding % is only an optional higher standard and nowhere in the minimum standards (up to three star) is there any requirement for a COI % below a certain figure.
For example, I have recently inspected a three star breeder who is a kennel club assured breeder and her COI % for the last 10 litters or so is over 30%. The breed average is approx 11%. I find it shocking and I’m horrified I can approve a three star licence on that basis.
Even the kennel club seem to frown on it but will register her as an assured breeder!
Quote from the KC website:
To put your result into perspective:
0% = a dog with two apparently unrelated parents (based on all available pedigree information)
12.5% = the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a grandfather to granddaughter mating, or the mating of a half-brother/sister
25% = the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a father to daughter mating, or the mating of full-brother/sister
More than 25% - inbreeding is accumulative, so if it has occurred to a significant degree over several generations, the inbreeding coefficient may exceed 25%
How on earth would the general public be clued up on this when they expect an assured breeder to be the gold standard?
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I’d consider it if I knew the breeders, dog and bitch. But I wouldnt buy where one or more parties were unknown.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
I've also seen a (full FCI member) kennel club pedigree including the name of my friend's dog, only the sex/colour/breed lines are all different. Unless there are two dogs of the same breed and the same name from the same kennel, one a dog/one a bitch, one grey, one blondie. That would be a stupid thing for a breeder to do and a stupid thing for a kennel club to allow. Which is where DNA would be helpful.