Buying an expensive horse-how much difference?

[siennamiller]

So, I was debating with someone, say I bought a new horse, spent e.g.10000 on a cracking horse with BS experience and potential, what if I was to still go out, and ride like a numpty and have a fence down!
My mare was cheap, because she was a bit of a wreck, and has come so far with me, but still quite often has a fence (that's a whole other disappointing story!), so I wonder what would happen if I bought an expensive horse, maybe it is me that's rubbish, and maybe we would still have a fence down, because it didn't put my leg on or something?

 

[spacefaer]

Its easier to ride well on a good horse, and good horses are not necessarily expensive. Hopefully, the price of a horse that costs a lot will be a reflection of the level of training and time spent gaining experience, that you will be able to find the buttons more easily. Sadly, that's rarely the case!

 

[oldie48]

So you buy an expensive pair of trainers, find they give you lots of support and spring rather than jarring you as you run along the road but if you're crap at running you still won't win any medals but you might run a bit faster. I think it's a bit the same with a horse, it won't turn you into a better rider, only you can do that, but if it's got some talent and you can improve your riding than it will help you get further than you would on a horse with no talent.

 

[Cortez]

A horse can only operate to the level of his rider. If you are a crap rider, a good horse will eventually sink to your level. The opposite is true also, which is why really good riders make even donkeys look good, but to be truly exceptional both horse and rider must be of the highest quality.

 

[catembi]

Not necessarily expensive - maybe talented? I am an average rider, but with the late Catembi (by Cruising) I was competitive at 1 m 10 BS, had done a 1 m 15 & was working towards a crack at Fox when he got ill. He was so bold & brave that I kinda got swept along with it & improved to match. I got so much further than I ever thought I would, and with a lot of lessons & practise we were a team rather than me being a passenger.

I'm hoping I've learned the 'feel' of what it felt like to jump at that level so that I can recreate it if Trev comes back from KS surgery.

T x

 

[siennamiller]

I'm not saying I'm going to buy a new horse ( in case anyone wonders), but I was just interested in, if I did. I don't think I'm a crap rider, just a bit inexperienced in competition, was just interested really.
I did get to ride a lovely grade b showjumper once, and it made a big difference to my riding, as a lot of my problem is confidence.
I have never had a horse that gave me confidence, I have always had something with issues, that make it tricky.

 

[Barnacle]

I don't know... I think it depends.

There are some amazing clips on youtube and facebook of horses doing what they are trained to do and doing it well - without a rider. I've seen at least one showjumper, one pole bender and one reiner who either dumped their riders or never let them get on in the first place and went ahead and wowed everyone with what they could do pilot-less. I'm not saying they would score perfectly - but it shows you just how much a good horse is able to do on its own.

I think you can get quite far with a horse that is simply talented at the work it is being asked to do - but not in all disciplines. For instance, if you can't press the right buttons, it doesn't matter how amazing and experienced you Dressage horse is, you're not going to do well (you may even do worse!). But if the horse can judge its own distances and turn on a dime and jumps carefully, sure you can get around a course of jumps... You need to remember the order and stay on and not get in the way, but the horse can do a great deal for you.

Without naming names, I know a couple of jumpers who have done very well because of their horses (talking tip top horses previously ridden by big names). But they also end up ruining those horses... They start stopping and the refusals pile up and they have to swap the horses for new ones. To their credit, the riders get this. They are not under any illusions and work to improve themselves. But. in the meantime, they are off to Europe for big competitions that better riders cannot dream of because they just don't have the horse...

On the other hand, have any of you watched the Olympic Pentathlon? I've never really been aware of this sport and then someone showed me a clip from the London Olympics and I had to watch the whole thing - men and women. It's quite an interesting event because the people who compete in it are not usually particularly accomplished equestrians and the ridden phase is showjumping. It's fascinating as the same horses get used twice so you get to see them going with different riders and it's very obvious which ones are "good" - but it's also remarkably obvious which riders are good...

Even if that aspect doesn't interest you, watch those clips! They are on YouTube and it's all very eventful! I really enjoyed watching them (though half the time I was terrified something would go horribly wrong - spoiler - everyone survives!)

So... Not to be a cliche, but I think it's a partnership. A good horse - not necessarily an expensive one - will take you part of the way. But you need to be able to meet it some way there. And what is a good horse for one person won't be the same for another. You can hand someone a wonderful little jumping pony that occasionally throws an excited buck between fences and it would be a disaster as they'd come off every time... You could give someone the most beautifully trained dressage horse that is super relaxed and laid back and the rider might not be able to get any forward out of it, while someone else will not be able to deal with the enthusiastic one that always thinks "forward". One person will want their horse to go steady to fences, another will want to be in control of their pace themselves... All horses are different - and so are all riders.

 

[Irish gal]

As you are experienced and have been competing then I'm sure a school master will only help, especially if you go at the level you are used to. Sometimes though buying the expensive jumper doesn't work. Good jumpers are often careful and careful horses can start refusing if they lose confidence in the rider as they don't want to hit poles. There was an interesting case of that recently where a top pony was sold for 67,000. With the poor rider it started to refuse, new owners sued the old ones and won their case, which I thought was unfair. The judge clearly didn't understand what can happen to a jumper with a not so competent rider.

 

[FfionWinnie]

A horse can only operate to the level of his rider. If you are a crap rider, a good horse will eventually sink to your level. The opposite is true also, which is why really good riders make even donkeys look good, but to be truly exceptional both horse and rider must be of the highest quality.

Exactly right.

Better to spend the money on lessons improving yourself IMO.

 

[siennamiller]

It's kind of a musing, rather than a reality. I was just interested in what would happen if I was able to buy a new horse, that was experienced and yes, I guess a schoolmaster type.
I do have lessons, and they do help, and y horse has dramatically improved from when I got her ( think giraffe x camel x rocket!), but she is still tricky to ride, and I do struggle sometimes. I'm getting there slowly, but we are both getting older lol

 

[Pearlsasinger]

A horse can only operate to the level of his rider. If you are a crap rider, a good horse will eventually sink to your level. The opposite is true also, which is why really good riders make even donkeys look good, but to be truly exceptional both horse and rider must be of the highest quality.

I do wish more people would understand that the *rider* influences the horse's way of going for good or ill. If the rider has a good position, with an independent seat and soft hands any horse will go better than it will for someone who sits like a sack of potatoes pulling and kicking at every step. Some people would be better off with a bike, or at least their horses would.

 

[Micropony]

My observation would be that it's great to go out and spend a lot of money on a lovely, accomplished, patient, kind schoolmaster (and of course not all of them are), but it doesn't remain a schoolmaster for very long if it's not ridden regularly by a pro or similar. Not many people seem to budget for that, and are taken by surprise when the bad habits start creeping in, or a cheeky streak comes out that hasn't previously been evident with a more expert rider. Can work really well I think, but not if the buyer thinks the purchase price is the end of their investment.

 

[spacefaer]

I have a friend who bought a 12 yr old dressage horse that I had known and ridden since he was 3. The friend bought the horse on condition that I came with it. She knew that without my help and training, it would have taken her a lot longer to work out how to ride him, as she had most recently ridden homebreds to novice, and he last competed at Inter 1.

 

[Rivonia]

I'm sure a talented horse makes a huge difference. Me, a very untalented novice, set my bum upon a OTTB with very little schooling. We are GREAT together. I look like someone who knows how to ride and she looks relaxed and easy, which she is. We even do shoulders-in, which neither of us knew how to do before. On the other hand, the kick-along slugs of the riding school make me look like I've never even seen a horse before, and the horses look like donkeys on sedatives. I'm sure that the same dynamic carries applies to all riding levels.

 

[Bernster]

I'd agree with the other posters. The only bit I'd add from my experience was that it put undue pressure on us both. So for me, having spent a lot of money on a youngster a few years ago, I expected much more of him because of his price tag. He didn't know it and it was my mistake, but I def felt an added pressure because of the amount of money I'd paid. He was too much for me and was sold on (for the same price I'd paid) to a more experienced home. So,now it's less about the price tag (other than what's my budget) and more about getting the right horse for me.

Bit freaked by the posters saying a horse will come down to the riders level eventfully. I realise it's true and that ofc they go better for better riders, but now that's added to my ever present rider paranoia. Sheesh. ��

 

[Red-1]

Horses can be expensive for a number of reasons. If it is pure talent then it probably won't help you. I see an awful lot of people who over horse themselves. A talented horse can jump you clean off, and a big powerful stride is difficult to manage.

On the other hand when we put Charlie on the market he was renowned to take any rider and carry then over 1.20 single fence, or do a 95 course. The rider merely had to hint at which jump was next, and Charles did the rest. He would sort out his line, stride, throw a comfy jump, catch the rider on the other side and await instructions. If no instructions came he would see which fence looked the most likely....

He did this for years, with very little input from me, as I had my own more talented horses to ride, and to be frank, he board me!

Most people thought he was over priced, £8,500 (10 years ago), but he did Nov BE, Newcomers BS (butwas happier at 100BE and Disc BS)and Nov BD, as well as being wheelie bin and Jcb proof. In the end the people who wanted to buy him were not interested in him as a horse, just wanted to buy success and had little feeling, so we decided to keep him. My husband bought him and he taught him to ride, and had friends, family, local kids have fun for years!

The former type is widely available, the second type are rarely for sale, and people then think they are "over priced".

 

[oldie48]

My three last horses have all been dressage schoolmasters but not necessarily competing at a high level.They were reasonably expensive but I was prepared to pay because they were safe, good to hack and lovely to handle. My trainer jokingly described them as a fiesta, he was small fairly basic but got you where you wanted to go quite nicely, audi estate, looked good, had the moves but was underpowered and the latest is my ferrari, a bit flashy, got a big engine but I can struggle keeping him on the road so rarely use the higher gears but they are definitely there! They were all well schooled and had reasonable competition records but were not world beaters. They have all improved my riding but none of them would do it for you, in fact they were all excellent at sussing me out and exposing my weaknesses which then I had to try to improve. There would be no point in me buying a really expensive talented horse as I doubt I'd be able to ride one side of it, I'm happy for the professional to have those but the sort I want to buy are as rare as hen's teeth and come with a decent price tag.

 

[TGM]

There are lots of factors to take into consideration - just a few of my thoughts below:

* It is usually easier to get good results on a horse that has a natural aptitude for the job required - both mentally and physically. For example, we have two geldings one of whom is compact, with powerful hindquarters, whilst the other is rather gangly with a very long back and quite weak behind. Both have genuine temperaments, but the same rider is much more likely to ride a good dressage test or jump a clear round showjumping on the first horse, because he finds the work much easier. On the other hand, the gangly horse is naturally bold cross country, whilst the compact horse can occasionally be over careful in this phase. So if you are currently riding a horse that finds the job physically difficult or is not 100% mentally suited to the game, then if you spend your money on something with a natural aptitude for the job, you might find it easier to get good results.

* If you spend your money on a horse with an excellent competition record, you would expect to get good results. However, you have to think carefully why the horse has been so good - has it got a natural aptitude for the job or has it been carefully produced by a very competent rider who gets the best out of every horse they ride. If the later, then the chances are that the horse might not go so well for someone who is not such a good rider, which can put a lot of pressure on the rider, sap their confidence and send the relationship between horse and rider into a downwards spiral. I've seen this happen a lot with some very expensive horses going from clear round 'machines' to nappy, refusing beasts.

* The rider is a big part of the equation. In most cases where I've seen successful horses deteriorating, I've also seen the rider adopting a defensive position, hanging onto the reins over every fence, resulting in a very unhappy horse. Plus a lot of horses take their confidence from their riders, so a horse that jumps boldly with a competent, confident rider, can start to back off when ridden by someone who is very nervous. There is also the danger that if the horse has been competing at a higher level than the new rider, then the rider tries to climb the levels too quickly resulting in disasters and destroyed confidence.

* All that said, there are some absolute equine saints who are very tolerant and know their job inside out, and can help a less experienced rider learn their job and gain confidence. They are just very hard to find and normally understandably expensive!

 

[Bernster]

My three last horses have all been dressage schoolmasters but not necessarily competing at a high level.They were reasonably expensive but I was prepared to pay because they were safe, good to hack and lovely to handle. My trainer jokingly described them as a fiesta, he was small fairly basic but got you where you wanted to go quite nicely, audi estate, looked good, had the moves but was underpowered and the latest is my ferrari, a bit flashy, got a big engine but I can struggle keeping him on the road so rarely use the higher gears but they are definitely there! They were all well schooled and had reasonable competition records but were not world beaters. They have all improved my riding but none of them would do it for you, in fact they were all excellent at sussing me out and exposing my weaknesses which then I had to try to improve. There would be no point in me buying a really expensive talented horse as I doubt I'd be able to ride one side of it, I'm happy for the professional to have those but the sort I want to buy are as rare as hen's teeth and come with a decent price tag.

I love the analogy with cars! I know they are animals, so it's different, but I def get you what you say about having a ferrari. I've got a 'fun little sports car' model - lots of fun to ride and plenty of vroom ! Harry Meade once described my friend's ID as a 'diesel engine' horse which I thought was fitting, powerful and steady but not quite got the poke of a more blood type.

 

[marmalade88]

I think it's all about building a partnership, regardless of how good or how bad either the rider or the horse are, it takes both to understand and trust the other to really improve, succeed and develop.

I see a lot of people who buy established competition horses and just can't get the results. In my mind this is because they fail to understand their horses individuality and how once and horse is mentally settled
they become more trainable and settled in their work. Plus I think a lot of people ( at least where I am) buy a horse to move up the levels and have never dealt with a fit competition horse, the needs of which differ widely to horses they've had previously. Expensive horses typically are performing well where they are with the partnership they already have, caring for it and riding it in a successful way for the new owner can be a challenge.

At the same time it's possible to buy a cheaper horse and unlock it's potential by caring for it and riding it in an alternative way to it previous owners.

A horse with natural ability will only thrive in the right environment, a bit like a child a school. Nature means a few will always succeeds, a few will always fail and for the inbetweeners nurture is the difference.

 

[blood_magik]

I don't know how much money comes into it, to be honest.
I have two horses - one was £££ and the other cost 1/6 of what I paid for the other but I find the cheaper one easier because he's a lot less complicated and not as sensitive. His flatwork is a lot further on, too.
On the other hand, the more expensive horse has great breeding and more scope than I'll ever need but I've had to put a lot of work into him to get him to where we're getting consistent results.

At the end of the day, you can spend a fortune but you're still going to have to put the work in to improve.

 

[Jo1987]

I think a lot depends on wether you and the horse 'get' each other, if you know what I mean.

Barnacle, thanks for making me aware of the pentathlon! Couldn't get the Olympics to play but watched a bit of the 'world cup' which I imagine is a similar level? Very exciting and slightly terrifying - looks like what would happen if I attempted to ride round a proper course!!
A Polish chap stood out in particular, he was on a very sharp horse, sat as still as he could but still ploughed through a few fences. As he was pulling up though he gave the horse a big pat (the only one that did!) and smiled as if to say "ah well, next time!"

 

[epeters91]

I agree that talented horses can improve your riding. On the weekend I rode my friends horse at a fun ride he's a jumper, knows his job and enjoys it. I've always been good with smaller jumps but lacked confidence on higher ones. I've always had horses that have had to be ridden to the jump and so I've wimped out a few times. This weekend I jumped a scary 2 ft 9 cross country like spread jump very nicely it was the last of a trio of jumps the biggest and scariest but because the horse was eager and willing I went for it and felt very happy after

 

[milliepops]

I think a lot depends on wether you and the horse 'get' each other, if you know what I mean.

Barnacle, thanks for making me aware of the pentathlon! Couldn't get the Olympics to play but watched a bit of the 'world cup' which I imagine is a similar level? Very exciting and slightly terrifying - looks like what would happen if I attempted to ride round a proper course!!
A Polish chap stood out in particular, he was on a very sharp horse, sat as still as he could but still ploughed through a few fences. As he was pulling up though he gave the horse a big pat (the only one that did!) and smiled as if to say "ah well, next time!"

IIRC there were a few choice words said on here about the pentathlon at the time it's certainly interesting viewing.

Like others, I think the price is not necessarily the relevant thing here. my horses (a Robin Reliant and an old Fiat Punto, I'd say) were both free. What makes the difference for me in terms of learning & achieving stuff is that they are generous horses.

I'd never have the funds for a schoolmaster, but that's what makes it easier to learn how to be a better rider, more quickly. They are often also good for building confidence, and learning how to be competitive at a level without the stress of a green horse. As others have said, they require regular tune-ups to avoid a decline in performance.

Having to teach yourself on horses that don't know anything is frustrating (&rewarding in equal measure), plus it takes a long time. However, it's nice to be able to look back at a good result and say 'I did all of that myself' I think you are also forced to learn different approaches more quickly through trial & error, which possibly gives you more transferable skilz in the longer term. I think the ideal situation would be to have an experienced horse to practice on, and a green one to bring up behind it.

 

[smja]

I've always had freebies, which I like because there's no pressure - if we do well, excellent, but no one was expecting us to be any good!

It is good to ride a more established one, though - sis' horse has much better flatwork than mine, and riding him helps to highlight issues with my position etc. quite nicely.