Buying horses from pro's for ametuer riders?

I would be very wary of buying a horse off a pro. Once bitten, twice shy !!! Only exception to that would be a newly backed youngster.
I would never buy an established horse that had only ever been ridden by a male pro.

In general, if I was looking to spend money on a competition horse, I would be looking for one that had been successful with a rider of similar ability to myself.

To add to that I sent my young event horse to be ridden/educated/competed by someone else and deliberatly chose a small female. At the end of the day, as amateurs, we need to make sure we can ride our horses too.

I have also spent a time working for a top male competitor. I rode his horses at home with no issues what so ever. However I would never claim that I could continue to produce or compete them effectively.
 
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bigboyrocky said:
What are your thoughts on this?
Ive done my first day of work experience at Austin O'connors today (and loved it :D) and have also been looking at lots of pro's websites/videos, and i cant understand why people looking for horses even bother looking through ads, when all the best horses are sat there with pros, that have all been started off well!

Now, i will be looking for a horse in a few months when Rocky is sold, and when hes gone, we will be asking to see a few of Austins horses and if none suit then will go to other yards i have in mind.

Can anyone think of a reason why this isnt often the case - ametuers buying from pro's?
Different environment?
Temprament?
Suitability?

Just wondering reallys as it seems to me like the one and only option now! Things advertised seem to be stupid money, and not nearly half as well schooled.

Thoughts please :)
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I haven't read other posts but on the experience of an HHOer on here who has just had a horrendous time with purchase from an accredited BS trainer I would say no. It is only the fact that she and another customer were in the process of taking him to court that he agreed to a full refund, presumably because he is quite high profile and his reputation would be damaged.

It has nothing to do with the suitability of the rider v horse it was all about the fact a pro thought he could take advantage of an amateur he wouldn't cross paths with again and knowingly sold her a damaged horse.
 
I haven't read all the replies but my thoughts are that horses produced by 'pros' are often produced too quickly (for obvious reasons).

Once the ordinary rider comes along and buys the horse is invariably ridden/handled in a different way and everything starts to go down hill.
 
I think it depends on the horse's experience and age.

I would not buy anything from a pro that had done more than a couple of comps. An established horse will be used to very accurate riding and will probably not react well to an amateur messing up.

The best horse I've had was bought as a 5 yo and she had been produced by a very good event yard in Norfolk. She had done a PN with their rider. She was fantastic in every way, she'd had a super grounding and she was perfect to ride and handle. However, she hadn't become used to being ridden by a pro, so she and I quickly went up to Novice and she didn't mind my riding! I was 16 and didn't really have a clue, so I needed something forgiving!

My current horse is also lovely and she was started by a pro in Ireland. She did young horse SJ over there. I got her when she was 6 and her SJ grounding really shows. She happily takes over and jumps round courses even when I totally mess up. Like the first horse, she has not become used to a pro, which is just as well as she would never ever put up with me if she had!

So my ideal horse would be a young one from a pro. If I were buying an older one, I'd be reluctant to buy from a pro.
 
I find your attitude a tad presumptious. There are one or two pros who sell super horses but the tend to specialise in them and no longer compete at high levels. Emily Lee and Vicky Tuffs would be good examples. They produce the horses properly and put the time into them rather than them being just a sideline.

There are one or two pros who get incredible results on green horses (Piggy French) they have probably done half the educating that I would need to do to get half as good a result because the rider is so good they make no mistakes. The other thing is that sometimes the horses are pushed too early.
 
main thing that would put me off buying from a pro = the pro's premium - I may be wrong but I think you pay more to buy from a 'name'
 
Its a really interesting debate...

When I was your age BBR a lot of my friends bought horses of pro's to go eventing. I don't think it worked out with any of them. (they were 15kplus horses, 2* level ish) they were all too sharp and needed experienced riding and started to stop. These girls were really good riders with the best training and support but they were young and neive and the horses weren't having the 'behind the scenes' consistancy of riding or the competition experience and reactions that the pros give them.

However... I ride a horse who was ridden by one of the best pro's! Just a little bit daunting! She is fiesty and quirky but we clicked and went double clear at Bramham as our 4th event. (And i'm still learning how to get more out of her) I would never ever of been able to ride one side of her had I not produced my own horse up to 4* level, ridden lots of horses whilst riding for pro eventers and showjumpers and learnt the hard way on the way up.

So i guess my humble opinions is that YES you can ride pro horses successfully, perhaps if you buy them as a youngster with a good start in life or you have had ample of experience and are riding lots and lots of horses but be very very wary as I seem to think there is a high failure rate otherwise.... however, there is always the exception to the rule.

Also after watching an awful lot of xc and sj rounds over the years most the horses the pro's ride are having every last inch squeezed out of them in the showjumping and are ridden very tactfully on the XC that looks like any normal person wouldn't get them round and so have the perfect track record when perhaps it probably shouldn't have. They also do a lot as young horses which seems to blow their minds later on.
Always watch the horse compete I guess.
 
MegaBeast said:
I'd have to say I think you were lucky. Dare I say a lot of pros wouldn't really know if a horse was forgiving or not as they've probably not put it in a situation to find out! Most horses will jump from any spot, but one that has been established to only jump from the correct spot will probably have its confidence rattled even if it's only fractionally off. Not a judgement on your riding at all, just something to be wary of. I'm yet to hear of any real success stories of people who've bought from pros... please someone tell one!

Seriously though, the other aspect to consider is that the ones the pros sell are those that won't make the grade, or those that have shown some talent, been pushed too far too soon too fast to make a quick sale without getting the basics right (my mare) and been rattled in the process.
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I didn't buy these but i did used to ride one... Mr Smartie was £24000 from Sheree Embly and produced to JA standard by Danielle Farnsworth he didn't do that well with the girl who bought him, but not being cocky or anything we did pretty well jumping he never put a foot wrong :D if you let him do his job....my friend just bought a grade A from Robert Whitaker :O he is lusshhh she was jumping at Hickstead and got clears (only had him 2 weeks) don't know the price of him, if i did i reckon i would get heart failure!!
 
i think it depends hugely on the horse, the Pro (some would be far harder acts to follow than others... some other Pros find it hard to follow certain other Pros, for instance), and on the amateur rider's own ability (including height and strength compared to existing Pro rider) too.
I'd be wary though, tbh. I'd much rather buy from a top young-horse dealing yard (Vere Phillips, by choice) or from an amateur.
 
Pretty much what Kerilli said, but I'd add that some Pros have the knack of producing horses that are amateur friendly, and these tend to be the ones who make a big part of their business selling horses. A lot of pros don't think about the production of the horse in that way and hence their horses don't transfer as well to an amateur rider.

The one thing I'd say is if you are a smaller rider without long, iron hard legs/back and a perfect seat, don't buy a horse who has been produced by a rider with these attributes! Unless they have deliberately trained the horse to be ridden by someone like you......
 
Can I add that some horses actually suit amatures better than pro's.
My mums ex-eventer who was sold to her by a pro used to stop XC when being trained by an event rider. She labeled him as useless and my mum paid a fraction of the price she paid for him.
He very rarely stopped with my mum. They had a fab eventing record and my mum was offered 20k for him as a potential advanced horse during his 2nd season eventing in the early 90's obviously a lot of money back then!
He was a very sensitive horse and he thrived the one to one. He was awful at the pro's yard, wouldn't even let the groom in the stable! The event rider couldn't even get him on the XC course when my mum went to try him.
That's why I think it so depends on the horse.
My mums horse was average to a lot of people and my mum is an average rider however together they were something very special. That's why I think when looking for a horse u should never rule out any avenue as you never know what u could find. I think the partnership is just as important as the training :)
 
A lot probably depends on the horse. I have two horses. Henry (We think) was broken in properly, and spent some time whipping in/hunting hounds with the atherstone. He appears then to have been sold, at about 5 or 6 (at a guess) to a/some moron(s), who let him get away with everything. He is nappy, throws a paddy if he cant get his own way, and generally will do anything he can to get out of doing work (not in a nasty way - just if your a really rubbish nervous rider you will fall off). However, out hunting he is a totally different horse - he reverts back to how he would have behaved with the "pro" from the hunt.

Trigger was eventing at novice until he was about 7/8, and was produced reasonably professionally until then (JP Sheffield rode him for owner at a couple of events). Then has been sold on twice since then. Not sure about first owner, but one we got him off had him for about four years, we think was a bit scared off him. He was very grumpy and rude when he came. Now hes much better; and hes far nicer to ride than Henry. No strops, he does what you ask him to, when you ask properly, and he is far more genuine.

So from that... would I buy from a pro.... yes. I wish I had both Henry and Trigger before they went to owners before me (especially Henry)!
 
I agree with the thinking that some horses are better suited to a one to one than being cared for a ridden by a team (like at a pros yard) and likewise some suit a pros yard better than a one to one.

I would agree that buying a horse from a pro is not a sure fire way to a successful match. I think some pros spend alot of time and energy producing, I will say the one pro rider local to me spends alot of time bring on a horse and has a handful of horses of her own so has more ability to do this and more time to get the basics right. I am sure this isnt the case for all pro riders - and I would shy away from the idea that only good horses can be bought from a "name".

If your going to keep the horse at the same yard after purchase then it never really goes to one to one (just your and your horse) - TX1 horse stayed at pros yard and was support by the pro and had lessons on hand etc so that makes a massive difference.


BBR - I would also say that ridding a pros horse at their home yard when its in full work and in a set routine would be very different to getting on it at your place once its had a week or two off..... or infact riding it outwith a full work routine..... or you take it into an open field for a gallop... these are all just pracital things that I would think need serious consideration as a horse can soon change once its routine does.
 
i think i was also lucky. [but im not sure if my story applies? as its slightly different]

One of my horses, Monty, we didn't buy directly from a pro, but from our YO (who bought him off a pro - so he was still a pro's horse). I think it was the best decision my mum ever did. we bought him when he was 17, where he had done the big stuff, got the results and had been ridden by a pro and placed right at every fence etc etc... so when i got him he literally taught me EVERYTHING when i moved up from my 13.2hh to monty and his 16.3hh self :D he is a forgiving horse, so he coped with my ''amateur moments''... but i think in the long run has made me the rider i am today... as i had to learn to really RIDE him and to fine tune my aids etc.

i would buy from a pro in future. i think they can have the best horses at reasonable prices (obviously some pro's overcharge... but then so do some amateur horse owners... and i know there are some good amateur horses out there too...there is a bit of both in each world)
 
I think as with any horse purchase you just have to do your research and find out as much as you possibly can, contact previous owners/riders etc

My horse was produced to event by a pro rider, she is a very strong rider who competed him upto PN as a 5 year old, he was placed every time out, consistantly top 5.

She sold him on as he wasn't going to be a world beater. He was sold to an amauter who then enlisted a new rider who was also a pro, this pro wasn't such as strong rider and at Novice level during the XC phase he started napping badly and was either being withdrawn or eliminated. He was then sold on to other amauter riders who tried to event him at Intro level and the napping got worse.

The horse ended up pretty screwed up due to 2 reasons IMO, being pushed too hard at a young age and then not having such a confident rider to nurse him around and he ended up getting beaten up to force him around and when that didn't work sold on.

He ended up with me (dressage home) it's taken me 2 years to sort out the napping issues and when I first bought him I contacted both "pros" the 2nd rider where he had the issues told me he wasn't an amauters horse!

I would buy a horse from a pro depending on the reasons why it was being sold.
 
Oh dear, I think I'm flying against the wind here, but if you are an amateur, is the whole point not that you want to do it yourself, not for reward? So surely the fun, enjoyment and achievement is doing the training yourself, and then pitting yourself againt the professionals..... its a learning curve, surely - and if you think you are good enough to climb up the ladder, then you should be able to do that off your own back.... that is after all how the professional riders got there. In my most humble opinion there is nothing worse than an amateur rider with a professionally trained horse, competing against true amateur riders who have done the work themselves! And yes, I know, where do you draw the line between a professional horse, and one that happens to have come through a professional yard , etc etc - its a can of worms! Sorry!
 
abercrombie&titch said:
Oh dear, I think I'm flying against the wind here, but if you are an amateur, is the whole point not that you want to do it yourself, not for reward? So surely the fun, enjoyment and achievement is doing the training yourself, and then pitting yourself againt the professionals..... its a learning curve, surely - and if you think you are good enough to climb up the ladder, then you should be able to do that off your own back.... that is after all how the professional riders got there. In my most humble opinion there is nothing worse than an amateur rider with a professionally trained horse, competing against true amateur riders who have done the work themselves! And yes, I know, where do you draw the line between a professional horse, and one that happens to have come through a professional yard , etc etc - its a can of worms! Sorry!
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Totally disagree. If I had the money I would buy myself a proven schoolmaster who had competed at a higher level than I have, and learn to ride bigger classes. Amateur riders and amateur horses aren't always a good match. If you are novicy, you need a more experienced horse.

And a LOT of pro/top class riders have not learnt to ride or got to the top by bringing on unknown youngsters - to get really far, especially in SJ and dressage, you have to have good horses, and they cost money. A lot of these riders will have been on top class animals since they were on ponies. Generally it just takes too long to produce a decent pony before you are out of it age-wise - so if you have the money and want to go far, you buy a proven one.

I also don't have any problem with amateurs competing against "pro" horses - if they have won too much money, they won't be competing in the same classes.
 
MegaBeast said:
Seriously though, the other aspect to consider is that the ones the pros sell are those that won't make the grade, or those that have shown some talent, been pushed too far too soon too fast to make a quick sale without getting the basics right (my mare) and been rattled in the process.
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Another case in point would be my friend who bought from a pro.

Said horse had gone from PN - 1* in just 15 events (1 season) with the pro
my chum has now done a total of 13 events on it (over 2 seasons) at PN/N level and his records stands as...

always in the bottom or last after dressage
between 1 or 4 fences down sj and time pens
7 stops and an E xc

It has taken her 13 events to get a DC and even then she was only 20th as the dressage wasn't good enough. (eta friend has competed on home produced horses up to Int)

this is a negative example but TheoryX has the flip side above. I would just try really hard to weigh up all the pros and cons, and don't get star stuck by the idea of buying off a pro. Good luck with the horse hunt though :)
 
I would not as I would prefer a horse that was used to someone like me riding it and being kept in an environment which was similar to where I would be keeping it.

However if I was a very competitive amateur with pro like facilities and time and access to lessons or coaching with a pro of that level then yes I would consider it.
 
little_flea said:
And a LOT of pro/top class riders have not learnt to ride or got to the top by bringing on unknown youngsters - to get really far, especially in SJ and dressage, you have to have good horses, and they cost money. A lot of these riders will have been on top class animals since they were on ponies. Generally it just takes too long to produce a decent pony before you are out of it age-wise - so if you have the money and want to go far, you buy a proven one.
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Agree with LF, in my discipline I don't know of *any* riders who didn't start with 'ready-made' horses!

Back to the OP I would never, ever buy from an amateur, but I do realise that dressage is completely different and maybe I would think differently if I evented (or knew anything about eventing :D)
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Agree with LF, in my discipline I don't know of *any* riders who didn't start with 'ready-made' horses!

Back to the OP I would never, ever buy from an amateur, but I do realise that dressage is completely different and maybe I would think differently if I evented (or knew anything about eventing :D)
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Me too, I'm afraid. Unless I was buying something completely untouched, but in that case it would be coming from a breeder.....
 
Although I do know a few now top drawer dressage riders who always have "made their own", so to speak, although with the benefit of many, many lessons along the way!
 
I didn't really think given the trend of the other comments that anyone was really going to agree with me (!!!!). I'm not purposely trying to rile or offend either - just giving an alternative point of view. :)
 
A&T - I think you've raised a good point. I know of people who get great joy out of not buying a ready made horse but in fact bringing on a horse. Everyone has a different ambition with horses IMO.
 
i think there is scale of progression so to speak -

while i was learning to ride as a kid and teenager we brought about 6/7 horses from amatuers. olders ones, to learn the ropes on. And i did learn how to ride, but as time went on it became clear we were also buying other peoples badly produced horses.
So we got sick of it, and once i was deemed good enough we brought 4 year old just backed, from a professional, but was a clean slate. that turned out really well and i had it for about 4 years and took it to grade A. since then we have only brought either just broken horses from pros or unbroken from the breeders, and i would never ever go back to buying something from an amteur as you just seem to buy other peoples problems alot more easily. or they arent used to correct aids as they have been ridden by the same person doing it 'a bit differently' for so long.

Saying that, i would only buy from a pro if i wanted to downgrade the horse ie from 140 to 120's, or it hadnt been broken long so no older than 5. for an amatuer or semi-amateur its a waste of time trying to emulate or improve on the pros results as its really unlikely you'll be able to!
 
I feel that a fundemental point to this debate is openess and honesty

I have no problem with people who want to spend money on a professionally produced horse for what ever reason, some even then keep them at the professional's yard to be schooled, some even get a professional to warm the horse up before shows. Then compete as ameteurs.

I will be blunt.....I am sure we are all aware of examples of this... at best it is misrepresentation, at the worst it is cheating.
 
Weezy said:
bigboyrocky - I think you are being a little, teeny bit arrogant, sorry!

Fact is you are riding these *pro* horses at home, they have a drilled routine. Have you been in charge of teaching them new tricks? Taking them up a level? Sorting them out?

The problems arise when new circumstances occur, or when you are out. I know some pro horses that look incredibly easy, but I know for a fact that those horses are being RIDDEN every step of the way round the course. Quite a few top horses are actually rather lacking in self confidence and it is only because they are put right at every fence that they say *OK, I'll jump*. I have sat on a lot of pro horses, indeed I worked for an International SJer, and when in their comfort zone the horses have all been pretty easy, I will give you that, but take them out of that drilled routine and there is a change.

The biggest difference between pro and amateur riding is reaction time. Pros ride for hours every day, even the best amateur, with one or two horses, will never be able to emulate the reaction time of a pro, or the finesse, which only comes from riding and riding and riding. I used to ride at least 3 horses a day, I would take catch rides, I could ride anything pretty much. These days I am nowhere near as good a rider, my reaction time is way slower and I know it and I have to accept there is nothing I can do about it.

Buying from a pro can be an expensive mistake - also bear in mind that if it all goes tits up you WILL lose money as you will have devalued the horse.
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I so agree with this. I had a pro horse (long story) many of you may remember "Peter". He basically "knew what you told him" and if I got it wrong (more times than not) he got it horribly wrong. He was so unforgiving. He was schooled ny Tim Stockdale and knew his stuff but with my inept riding looked like a green youngster with flashes of brilliance. Think again.
 
antagonist said:
I feel that a fundemental point to this debate is openess and honesty

I have no problem with people who want to spend money on a professionally produced horse for what ever reason, some even then keep them at the professional's yard to be schooled, some even get a professional to warm the horse up before shows. Then compete as ameteurs.

I will be blunt.....I am sure we are all aware of examples of this... at best it is misrepresentation, at the worst it is cheating.
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If I understood your post I'm sure I could agree or disagree with what you are saying. Who's cheating? Is someone getting pros to ride their horses in a comp and pretending that they are the amateur?
 
If I had the money, I'd look into buying an experienced horse from a pro. BUT I'd want to see him competed, worked, hacked, and have someone we trust and who knows how my sister rides watch my sister ride him. If a rider and horse are suited, and the rider is willing to take things slowly then I think it could work. I'd just go in with my eyes wide open!
 
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