Buying youngster for pro to produce

[Orangehorse]

I know this has been discussed before, but the youngster is currently quite desperate for a new home. It is very well bred dressage horse (aren't they all) with relations with nationally known riders and competing right now. I don't know why the current owner/breeder hasn't just advertised in H & H, but he doesn't want "just anybody" to buy it ???????

So I have a friend who has a dressage yard, and the thought just crossed my mind, why don't I buy it for him. It is a long term project as it is only a yearling at present. I would insure it, but I couldn't really afford to pay (much) livery and the thought process was that he would break and get it going and then sell it on. I was thinking 2/3rd to 3/4 of the price to him and the rest to me.

I really do know the pitfalls, having seen a spectacular falling out among friends over a horse that cost a bomb, (that the buyer frankly was not really able to afford) was to be produced to be a champion by the trainer and then sold on for a massive profit! However no one had told the horse and it turned out to be a disaster, the trainer said it was spoiled before he got it, the owner said "you wanted me to buy this horse so you could make it into a champion, you haven't lost any money, I have.) Plus there is the ever present danger of injuries, accidents, weird behaviour that horses are well known for ..................

Haven't discussed it with anyone, but is it a goer, or leave well alone?

 

[[59668]]

You know what stands out to me...."It"?! Horses are normally a he or a she....

 

[milliepops]

I was assuming it was to keep the situation fairly anonymous.
No advice I'm afraid OP, i have no experience whatsoever in this area. what is making you want to buy this one? would you have bought any other horse and done this?

 

[DiNozzo]

You know what stands out to me...."It"?! Horses are normally a he or a she....

Orangehorse probably want's to keep things as anonymous as they can...

You know what stands out to me? People commenting on threads without having anything to add...

Orangehorse I haven't ever had anything to do with this at all, but I have done business between friends and would recommend a decent contract. Think of all things that could go wrong between you and them, and have outcomes agreed upon before it goes ahead. Things might still go wrong, but at least then both parties know what happened is 'fair', or that they at least agreed to it first.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I think to buy and insure, you'd be wise to pay youngstock livery till it's old enough to be started.
You keep control till then.
Anything can happen with riders, yard owners etc in a short space of time, you wouldn't want to be dumped in the poo in say mid January to move said horse as Pro rider got a good offer to move to the other end of the country? Or them being sidelined with long term injury.

Usually owner would store youngster till ready to be started. If potential is seen, that's the time to get contracts drawn up for future expectations.

Edited to add, I used to produce adults as well as youngstock from 2yr olds up and sometimes sell them on for owners. However, the owner always paid livery bills and had insured, plus paid entries and travelling. If the owner then wanted to sell, we arranged my % of sale price. I didnt take them just to sell on tho, that's another ball game.

 

[ihatework]

What is your driver for doing this? To help your pro friend? If so why not buy a 3yo given you don’t know what position either you or they will be in by the time the yearling is ready.

The terms of the production will really be down to you and the pro to negotiate, it’s done all sorts of ways.

 

[MissTyc]

My friend has done it twice. She bought unbacked 3yos each time, several years apart for the same pro rider. I don't know what the % split was, but I know she brought the youngsters for £20,000. The first one turned out to be a super straightforward dude who sold for £80,000 as a 5yo to an amateur 120cm rider in Spain. Now doing the 140cms with the same rider a few years on. He's never put a foot wrong, just the coolest big labrahorse. Since it went so well and profit was made for everyone, she bought a mare of similar breeding from the same stud ... The mare was also quite straightforward but much less naturally talented and not as brave. The pro good some super work out of her but advised my friend to sell her to a "nice" home rather a very competitive one, so she was sold to a rather good rider from our local area who does a bit of eveything with the mare, very successfully but not at great levels. I don't know how much the horse was sold for, but knowing the new owner, I can't imagine much if any profit was made! Both horses magically stayed sound and healthy throughout the training experience ... My friend enjoyed being part of it from a distance, but won't be doing it again!
Not sure if it helps you, OP, but does remind that it's impossible to predict how these arrangements work out; as above, sometimes one has forgotten to tell the horse of their part in the plan and the horse has other plans entirely!

 

[sportsmansB]

If you can afford to lose the money, worst case scenario all of it including the purchase price and keep, and you would enjoy the process, then go for it
Do get a contract though, as if situations changed before the training had even started, or when it was partly underway but the horse not ready to be sold for any more than your investment to date, you could lose out.

 

[eggs]

If you do go for it get a very good contract in place. I think putting the horse on youngstock livery is a very good suggestion.

Do just remember though that excellent breeding does not always - in fact rarely - make a superstar.

 

[paddi22]

You know what stands out to me...."It"?! Horses are normally a he or a she....

pronoun
used to refer to something previously mentioned or easily identified.

I don't get where people get offended on a horses behalf by not gendering it? If you have multiple horses on a yard it's easier to just say 'I called a vet for it'. I remember someone pulling me up for calling one of my horses 'it' on a thread before, saying I mustn't like it or respect it much. and I was just baffled!

 

[Orangehorse]

I think to buy and insure, you'd be wise to pay youngstock livery till it's old enough to be started.
You keep control till then.
Anything can happen with riders, yard owners etc in a short space of time, you wouldn't want to be dumped in the poo in say mid January to move said horse as Pro rider got a good offer to move to the other end of the country? Or them being sidelined with long term injury.

Usually owner would store youngster till ready to be started. If potential is seen, that's the time to get contracts drawn up for future expectations.

Edited to add, I used to produce adults as well as youngstock from 2yr olds up and sometimes sell them on for owners. However, the owner always paid livery bills and had insured, plus paid entries and travelling. If the owner then wanted to sell, we arranged my % of sale price. I didnt take them just to sell on tho, that's another ball game.

That's a sensible reply, thanks.

The owner/breeder is fairly desperate to sell, as they are loosing grazing and has the mare, dam of the youngster, that he has had for a long time and doesn't want to sell, a young horse that had an injury and is not actually lame at the moment but not great to do lots of work, and another one that isn't really sellable at the moment.

 

[J&S]

I know a lady who has done this massively successfully. I remember the first one she bought, originally for herself, but then got a local pro to produce to a high standard and sold for what was a huge amount back in the early 80's. I remember saying ," well that was lucky, she'll never do that again"! How wrong was I?? However, she has a system, the land and contacts needed plus a great reputation now and for every success how many actually end up as just useful RC horses? You are planning to do it with just one potential star and have to pay livery/training etc for quite some time. If you were just going to buy the youngster for yourself, to bring on at a later date, then fair enough.

 

[LEC]

I would work out your costs to get it to 3 years old alive and well. Then factor in the fees to get it broken etc before sending it off for being produced.

I do think its easier for horse investment wise to do large scale or just have one which you enjoy the journey with and if not good enough sell to either reinvest or hold onto the money rather than having any expectations of a profit.

 

[Xmasha]

There are so many pitfalls doing this. But the one the jumps out to me ( first hand experience ) , you could very easily fall out with the pro within the next few years. It always seems to start off so well, everyone has the best of intentions, everyones excited , then as time goes on the relationship can change. You end up thinking the pro is a friend, then over the years they 'get used to you' and you become , its ok its only X. Complacency starts, you get frustrated and it all ends up pants.
So in your shoes if you want the youngster, buy it, but on your own. When its ready to be backed and produced then choose a suitable pro/yard. But remember at all times its business, because the pros certainly look at it that way.

 

[Orangehorse]

There are so many pitfalls doing this. But the one the jumps out to me ( first hand experience ) , you could very easily fall out with the pro within the next few years. It always seems to start off so well, everyone has the best of intentions, everyones excited , then as time goes on the relationship can change. You end up thinking the pro is a friend, then over the years they 'get used to you' and you become , its ok its only X. Complacency starts, you get frustrated and it all ends up pants.
So in your shoes if you want the youngster, buy it, but on your own. When its ready to be backed and produced then choose a suitable pro/yard. But remember at all times its business, because the pros certainly look at it that way.

Yes, you are correct. Never do business with friends ...................... In fact the vendor can't be that anxious as they haven't sent any details about breeding or even the price they want yet. My first thought was to help them both, as well as the youngster being a nice looking horse, but a few days thought has made me hesitate.