Calling all hoof experts

[Leafcutter]

Anyone following The phoenix way, path 2 hoof health on Facebook? Their take on laminitis is fascinating, but is there any proper science to back or refute this theory? They say it is excess heel height and cutting back the toes of laminitic hooves that actually causes rotation of the pedal bone, and nothing to do with ddft tension, body weight and gravity. Some of it seems to be logical but I know a horse with very low heels (tb) who had laminitis with rotation, anyone else?

 

[poiuytrewq]

I’ve not looked at/read so I’m not sure, I’ll have a look but same as you, I’ve had two TB’s who were laminitic and neither had excess heel height.

 

[suestowford]

I'm a bit wary of anyone who insists there is only one reason for something to happen, especially if it's laminitis. There can be many reasons for it to start.

The group you mention is private but you can see the public page of the business who run it, Hoofing Marvellous, without having to join a group.

 

[RHM]

I’ve joined the group because I was super curious. And from what I can gather they have some very sensible advice mixed in with some complete nonsense. For example they seem to perpetuate the idea that laminitis is always caused by a bad trim and leaving heels too high. They seem to be cultivating quite an evangelical following though and are already getting in spats with some farriers on social media.

Quite like seeing different ways of doing things though. I would just read everything on there with your eyes wide open.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

they are a bit nuts and think every ailment under the sun a horse can suffer is caused by not taking heels back far enough/chopping toes off whilst trimming to HSP and leaving toes untouched cures everything. Though I did like that they seemed to always suggest starting with x rays when new people joined and were interested in taking their horses bf - which is definitely sound advice as having x rays to trim to is really useful.

I left in the end because some of the hooves seemed SO very long in the toe they looked like welfare cases and I felt it was verging on neglect to continue leaving them but if you said anything against what the "group experts" were suggesting you were muted.

The farrier slander was ridiculous too: yes there's bad farriers as there's bad barefoot trimmers, there's good of both as well.

 

[Jambarissa]

I had been wondering about joining just to see what it's all about. They post on all the other barefoot pages to say 'join phoenix way' to every question without giving any advice which to me suggests they're trying to gain a following rather that genuinely help people.

 

[Follysmum]

I think they have some good ideas but it does seem to be a bit cult like. Their way and everyone else is wrong.

 

[paddy555]

I think they have some good ideas but it does seem to be a bit cult like. Their way and everyone else is wrong.

I have been a member of these groups for a while. I don't post as I don't want to be removed. I just watch and listen.

They do seem pleased and proud to be a cult. Their way or the highway, everyone else is wrong. Where did I hear that before about trimming and management. Oh yes, Strasser and look how well that turned out. So I don't do cult methods.

I totally don't get their leaving the toe long (as in very very very long) in laminitics. It must be uncomfortable for the horse. I remember in a Ramey clinic he had us strapping long wooden boards onto our feet to demonstrate how it felt walking with a long toe. A short break over was far more comfortable.

Just about every other farrier and method for the most part do the same. They have their little quirks, like to make their mark and demonstrate their ego but they are, for the most part pretty similar. I simply haven't had the time to study endless U tube hoofing marvellous videos to try and understand the intricacies but when one method totally goes against others I wonder.

I read some of their comments about management/diet which basically was horses needed only hay. They didn't need supplements etc. Mine is very dependent on high dose vit E and magnesium so he wouldn't last 2 minutes on their method.

 

[Follysmum]

I have been a member of these groups for a while. I don't post as I don't want to be removed. I just watch and listen.

They do seem pleased and proud to be a cult. Their way or the highway, everyone else is wrong. Where did I hear that before about trimming and management. Oh yes, Strasser and look how well that turned out. So I don't do cult methods.

I totally don't get their leaving the toe long (as in very very very long) in laminitics. It must be uncomfortable for the horse. I remember in a Ramey clinic he had us strapping long wooden boards onto our feet to demonstrate how it felt walking with a long toe. A short break over was far more comfortable.

Just about every other farrier and method for the most part do the same. They have their little quirks, like to make their mark and demonstrate their ego but they are, for the most part pretty similar. I simply haven't had the time to study endless U tube hoofing marvellous videos to try and understand the intricacies but when one method totally goes against others I wonder.

I read some of their comments about management/diet which basically was horses needed only hay. They didn't need supplements etc. Mine is very dependent on high dose vit E and magnesium so he wouldn't last 2 minutes on their method.

Yes totally agree
I think a certain track system place promote all the above, they have a big following.

 

[Landcruiser]

I had one of their trimmers trimming one of my horses for a while, due to logistics and loss of previous trimmer. They were also trimming a friend's cob, plus lots of other horses in the area that I didn't know/see. I was not impressed. Toe was indeed left long and gradually grew longer. Heels migrated forward. Friend's horse the same. This person did not see the horses walk up/move, nor discuss nutrition, although did advocate tracks. Definitely not the holistic approach I have from my current excellent trimmer.
Since then I have become much more aware of them as an organisation, and seen some huge rucks on various FB pages involving them v farriers/randoms. Too much drama for my liking, and too culty, never mind the questionable trim

 

[ponyparty]

I have just realised that this reminds me of the godawful trim that was applied to my old horse when he was away at a track livery. His feet changed shape over the months he was there, the opposite to how I’d expect, they became longer and more oval instead of (as when he’d previously gone barefoot) rounder. His frogs atrophied instead of beefing up. Poor boy was crippled when I went to retrieve him in the middle of covid lockdown after seeing a photo of the latest trim he’d had, which had also dug away a load of sole.

I haven’t got time to dive into it (and don’t really want to read their nonsense anyway) but part of me wants to join the group and have a stalk of the members and see if that darned trimmer is in there and anyone else associated with that place! Maybe if I’m very, very bored one day

 

[cariadbach10]

Would give this a listen before you do go down this road.

Social Media part 2, The Rise of the Cult within barefoot hoof care - M J Farrier another way?

Our most gritty podcast to date by far, Matthew Jackson and Mark Johnson tackle the emotive and divisive subject of what can almost also be described as a dictatorship emerging within barefoot hoof care.With some incredulous claims and absolute st...

www.buzzsprout.com

 

[Leafcutter]

You’re all confirming my feelings also, it looks to me more like a money making exercise (selling the 10 and 15 day challenges) than anything else. They condemn everyone for not being open minded, and then state it’s their way or the highway! Hypocrisy at its finest…

 

[Tiddlypom]

Allowing the toe to grow long and lowering the heel results in a foot like this.



This foot got like this with regular 6 weekly trims for over a year from a still registered EPA qualified trimmer.

When both I and my vet raised concerns, and my vet stated that the mare’s toes were too long, the trimmer insisted that my vet wanted him to ‘dump’ the toes. No she didn’t, she wanted him to rebalance the whole foot so that the heel was higher and the toes shorter.

He had not got the knowledge or the skills to remedy this foot balance that he had created, or to recognise how poor it was. He was totally focused on lowering the heels to allow the frog to take more weight, whilst ignoring the effects it was having on the rest of the foot.

Additionally, when in order to try and help him I offered to get her feet x rayed, he insisted that ‘Whatever the x rays showed, I would not trim these feet any differently’.

So there you go. Bargepole.

4 years on and I trim her myself, and I do a darn sight better job than that EPA trimmer did.

 

[Landcruiser]

Allowing the toe to grow long and lowering the heel results in a foot like this.

View attachment 143136

This foot got like this with regular 6 weekly trims for over a year from a still registered EPA qualified trimmer.

When both I and my vet raised concerns, and my vet stated that the mare’s toes were too long, the trimmer insisted that my vet wanted him to ‘dump’ the toes. No she didn’t, she wanted him to rebalance the whole foot so that the heel was higher and the toes shorter.

He had not got the knowledge or the skills to remedy this foot balance that he had created, or to recognise how poor it was. He was totally focused on lowering the heels to allow the frog to take more weight, whilst ignoring the effects it was having on the rest of the foot.

Additionally, when in order to try and help him I offered to get her feet x rayed, he insisted that ‘Whatever the x rays showed, I would not trim these feet any differently’.

So there you go. Bargepole.

4 years on and I trim her myself, and I do a darn sight better job than that EPA trimmer did.

Yup, looks familiar. When this happened to my horse, I could see it happening but I knew the horse to have very difficult to trim feet due to the way they grew (hence not trimming myself) and trimmer had been highly recommended and did a LOT of local barefoot horses...so I cut some slack....but after a fair few cycles enough was enough.

 

[suestowford]

I keep my ponies barefoot these days, but the person who trims them is a registered farrier. He trims their feet really well and the old boy's hooves have improved no end in their shape/growth pattern, since he's had his shoes off. IMO much of this improvement is down to the work of the farrier - someone who's had years of training & experience.
I'm not going to dismiss all that for some method promoted by someone I don't know, from facebook. But some will, and that's what worries me. As a pp said, it's reminding me a lot of Dr Strasser.

 

[Follysmum]

I know a few of people that did the strasser way are now promoting this system. One lady in particular is really rude and condescending in the barefoot groups.

 

[paddy555]

Would give this a listen before you do go down this road.

Social Media part 2, The Rise of the Cult within barefoot hoof care - M J Farrier another way?

Our most gritty podcast to date by far, Matthew Jackson and Mark Johnson tackle the emotive and divisive subject of what can almost also be described as a dictatorship emerging within barefoot hoof care.With some incredulous claims and absolute st...

www.buzzsprout.com

thanks for posting that.
I did try and listen at the time it was produced but my BB was too poor to open it but I did wonder what it was refering to.

Glad you reminded me because now with slightly better BB I can listen.
For anyone, like me, who simply doesn't have time to look at all the hoofing marvellous videos to try to understand then the podcast does summarise it well. (I have only got to 16 mins so far) but I now understand the long toe or what Johnson refers to as "Duck Feet" on lami horses. I vaguely get the theory of HM that by leaving that duck foot/wedge then apparently it talks to the coronary band to get the new hoof to come down straighter. ("talks to" were his words not mine ). There also seems to be the idea that the hoof must land flat with P3 ground parallel (this will be an idea familiar to the Strasser brigade as will the long toes!!) to protect the tip of P3. However in the case of lami then P3 can or course be anywhere and far from landing GP.
Also HM apparently claim there is no rotation.

anyway 16 mins tells me this is simply a Strasser like cult, dangerous because so many jump on the bandwagon but have no idea what they are talking about but their leader says so which makes it OK.

I will listen to the rest tonight but if anyone has the time to spare to listen then I think it will provide an understanding of the method/cult and it would be interesting to hear their views.

Any HM advocates please chip in with your understanding of the method.

 

[paddy555]

Allowing the toe to grow long and lowering the heel results in a foot like this.

View attachment 143136

This foot got like this with regular 6 weekly trims for over a year from a still registered EPA qualified trimmer.

When both I and my vet raised concerns, and my vet stated that the mare’s toes were too long, the trimmer insisted that my vet wanted him to ‘dump’ the toes. No she didn’t, she wanted him to rebalance the whole foot so that the heel was higher and the toes shorter.

He had not got the knowledge or the skills to remedy this foot balance that he had created, or to recognise how poor it was. He was totally focused on lowering the heels to allow the frog to take more weight, whilst ignoring the effects it was having on the rest of the foot.

Additionally, when in order to try and help him I offered to get her feet x rayed, he insisted that ‘Whatever the x rays showed, I would not trim these feet any differently’.

So there you go. Bargepole.

4 years on and I trim her myself, and I do a darn sight better job than that EPA trimmer did.

that foot always makes me laugh (Sorry)
I remember going to a horse training day when several had brought their BF horses. I was able to tell them (from their feet "as above") who their trimmer was. They were most impressed with me

 

[Highmileagecob]

Not an expert by any means, but in my humble opinion, laminitis is metabolic and poor trimming/shoeing will lead to navicular changes.
Laminitis is loosely linked to type 2 diabetes....when more food goes in than the insulin release can cope with, the high insulin levels will start to disrupt circulation, often seen in extremities. People with high, poorly controlled insulin levels are at risk of losing toes, painful feet, and leg ulcers and it would seem laminitis is an equine form of this.
If the horse consistently receives a poor trim, or poor shoeing then you will see trouble further down the years.
I haven't seen the FB group, but I'm very wary of pressure groups.

 

[Follysmum]

Would give this a listen before you do go down this road.

Social Media part 2, The Rise of the Cult within barefoot hoof care - M J Farrier another way?

Our most gritty podcast to date by far, Matthew Jackson and Mark Johnson tackle the emotive and divisive subject of what can almost also be described as a dictatorship emerging within barefoot hoof care.With some incredulous claims and absolute st...

www.buzzsprout.com

Mark is very knowledgeable and a lovely man. Let’s hope the “ sheep” see that there are good barefoot trimmers out there that know what they are talking about

 

[ponyparty]

Mark is very knowledgeable and a lovely man. Let’s hope the “ sheep” see that there are good barefoot trimmers out there that know what they are talking about

I wish almost daily that he covers my area

 

[Dave's Mam]

That's a good listen that podcast.

 

[irishdraft]

There is an almost daily spat about this subject from a certain track livery and a certain Aussie farrier. To say they have completely opposite views would be an understatement.

 

[Boulty]

Not an expert so just musing. It can’t be denied that the approach of the track livery currently advocating this method has managed to bring about a return to soundness in several horses with fairly awful feet who this hadn’t been the case with their previous regime. A lot of the farrier work on them doesn’t look great so can understand how seeing that on a regular basis may lead one to start tarring all farriers with the same brush if you’re continually seeing the worst of their work.

As a lot of these horses have a complete overhaul of their diet & management as well as a change in their trim approach I guess it’s hard to say how much contribution each individual element is having. (Well I mean obviously it’s the combination off all elements together)

I suppose there’s then the question that the vast majority of laminitis cases that end up going down this road are the ones traditional methods haven’t worked for whereas clearly there’s a large number of horses traditional methods DO work for. (Although I still don’t agree with shoes for “support” when there’s some fantastic hoof boot & pad solutions out there although can appreciate not an option for all horses & all owners) The question would be WHY do things go so badly wrong in some horses and not in others? Is it a case of lack of competence / lack of experience by the trimmer/ farrier, wrong diet, wrong management? Or a little bit of all these things?

As I’ve had a horse go to Rockley I’m vaguely familiar with the theory of not chopping toe off where you’ve got a weak back of foot to avoid laming horse/ not trimming past the white line / that if you make improvements in management that give you a better angle of growth not rushing to take the toe off won’t ruin that healthier growth and I personally know a decent number of horses this has worked for. (Will admit my Welsh D always tended towards an unideal foot shape in terms of toe length in front but he had PPID and my own research suggested that can be a contributing factor.)

Obviously it’s not an ideal situation long term in a foot that’s not recovering from pathology/ it’s definitely not a foot shape we should be aiming for in a healthy foot as of course the way it affects breakover could cause compensations elsewhere in the body over time. (Although if it’s a temporary thing whilst growing out damage it’s probably not going to cause lasting issues)

I’m not a member of the group in question but from what people who are have told me / what I’ve seen shared I’d agree with another poster’s assessment that it’s a mix of useful stuff and nonsense (eg I don’t agree with the assertion that horses on a hay only diet won’t be at risk of deficiencies) and that it does seem a bit culty (Although I’ve deffo sat laughing around a campfire joking about being in a sinister barefoot cult before so I probably shouldn’t judge on that!)

 

[FieldOrnaments]

There is an almost daily spat about this subject from a certain track livery and a certain Aussie farrier. To say they have completely opposite views would be an understatement.

certain aussie farrier? who?

 

[Jambarissa]

@Boulty

They are good musings and bare much more consideration.

I'm a scientist and would really like someone to isolate each change and see what improvement is made, quite likely the whole is more than the sum of the parts but it'd be useful to know e.g. moving to a track gives 40% of the benefits, the trim gives 30%, etc. This would be very doable with enough data but it'll be messy because every horse is an individual.

If I win the lottery I'll set up a lami recovery centre doing this, it'd be so worthwhile.

I can't really comment on trims, I'd imagine the horses previous shoeing history comes into it as does their conformation.

I do think tracks are interesting, the horse world has moved towards keeping horses with one other in little flat square fields and few are regularly exercised. They barely move compared to those on huge pastures with a herd. The hoof needs good circulation to be healthy, I have Pete Ramey's mega book and he is very strong on the need for horses to travel many miles each day. I wonder how many of the track livery successes are down to that alone and whether big field and friends and possibly muzzle during the day is all that is needed and so would be much more accessible to many owners.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Not a fan at all, the group is very cult-like and is pushing an ideology, rather than treating horses on a case-by-case basis. They use 'chop' as an emotive language for trimming the toe in any way, and will use photos of very very poor farriery, whilst also bashing all/every trimmer who doesn't prescribe to their exact method.

They also say that lever forces on the toe aren't a thing when they leave the toes long, but the laws of physics would suggest that there must be some lever forces at play, which in turn could affect other joints higher up the leg and lead to compensation in other parts of the body. Their method means that the toe is not touched at all and the horse walks around on paddle feet until it grows out. I think that there would need to be a lot of studies to prove any positive/negative impacts of this, and also taking into account other management changes - e.g. metabolic horse coming off of grass, the amount of movement and on what type of surface etc.

Worst of all for me though is that they do not conduct themselves professionally. The track livery who promotes their methods made a post about 'karma' when a farrier she argued with online got injured recently. To me that is completely unacceptable, even if you don't share the same views as someone, you should not mock that they got hurt on your professional page.

 

[holeymoley]

I joined it out of interest as I took my guy barefoot in January. Gee Whizz, I nearly got my head taken off in one post. Someone was looking for a bit of advice- they're horse had laminitis and rotation of around 4/7 degrees and was there any hope. I commented that there was indeed, that mine had significant rotation 5 years ago and at the time he was shod with heartbars and remedied back to 0 degrees, and that he was sound and now barefoot. Well! you can imagine.

I'm still on their page but I find them really outrageous to be honest. They put a post up yesterday about Olympic horses being shod, and shared it, taring the farrier to shreds. Shoes work for some, not for others. Every horse is an individual. I hate the whole forceful thing with them.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Can anyone give a hint as which track livery is being referred to? Initial letter of the yard, maybe?

I have my suspicions, but may be wrong.