can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

pipsqueek said:
Of course some native pony types can go shoe free (had a n.f pony as a child which never needed shoeing), and other horses depending on their hooves/ where they are kept/ what they are expected to do. No way could either of mine! Don't thinks the OP meant this to be a shod/barefoot argument either
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Lol! I guess you think I'm pretty crackers for taking the shoes of my ex-racer then? And I ride him out on the roads too, and jump on grass... in fact I do everything with him barefoot that I did shod. But he's the exception to the rule, right? :rolleyes:
 
Now I agree that with any profession you get good and bad no different to a GP Dentist Vet etc & I think we all find one we like best.But I still think it needs to be a recognised registered body otherwise you will have people setting up and causing damage..thats one of the reasons the worshipful farriers was set up due to poor feet management and to improve horse care etc and ensure they were trained on the horse foot etc A&P. If you think a farrier is no good report them.There is redress. Not sure about barefoot trimmers?

If a farrier will only shoe get another but I have never met this. Mine trims as well. I also know if I ever had a problem he would come out. In fact if it was foot related I would have him out anyday first probably prior to calling the vet out. Its his area of expertise and he is very proud to be registered and takes his job seriously.

oh he does like horses as well which probably helps. I think barefoot is a fad too. It put me off buying especially when I was constantly told they were sensitive over shingle driveways(this happened more than once) and I was disappointed as I want the option to shoe or NOT.
 
Fantasy_World said:
Ah yes but you see there could be a chance that one of my horses may in fact need a set or partial set of shoes to be put on, either for remedial or because they are wearing away too much hoof due to the roadwork that is needed to get to every bridle path in the area! I don't think I will be going down the boots route, before anyone suggests that. So do I stick with my farrier to trim or go with someone who does just trims! That was my point.
I think I would stick with my farrier thanks, oh and btw he doesn't advocate shoeing unless absolutely necessary ;) Also as this person sees my horses regularly and knows their health, age and my riding targets then it is better for them if they are seen by the same person every time, rather than several, continuity of care for my horses' feet.
As for your question about the shod horses and having issues with their feet.
Blame the bloody owners not the farriers!
A farrier will mostly do what the owner asks.
I know of and have known of horses that have had shoes fitted for no bloody reason whatsoever.
Cannot get my head around it to be honest. If you can't be arsed to go down the bare route and research what your horse needs to have perfect feet then take the easier option and whack a pair of shoes on.
Whereas in fact the process of nailing shoes into their feet and the weight of the shoe on the hoof perhaps does more damage than just leaving it bare and riding.
I am not referring to horses that need remedial shoeing or those whose poor hoof structure needs some kind of shoe for support, even if a glue on shoe. I am talking about the thousands of horses on livery yards just shod for being shod's sake!
Each to their own, but please don't try and tar all farriers with the same brush and I will never, ever have anyone utter a bad word against my farrier as he is the best one I have ever met!
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I ride my TB on the roads all the time, he never wears too much hoof away ;). I also use farriers, and I'm not suggesting that farriers are 100% to blame for every poor looking hoof; ultimately responsibility must lie with the owners, I agree. I also agree with Clava, though, that from looking at the work done by the majority of farriers I can't believe that they really have a great understanding of anatomy, there are just too many horses with shocking feet about.

Btw, I don't believe it's possible for a normal horse shoe to 'support' a foot, though I admit there are some pretty weird contraptions out there being stuck onto feet for that purpose... mostly they're just trying to imitate the function of a bare foot; kind of begs the question... ;)
 
pipsqueek said:
Of course some native pony types can go shoe free (had a n.f pony as a child which never needed shoeing), and other horses depending on their hooves/ where they are kept/ what they are expected to do. No way could either of mine! Don't thinks the OP meant this to be a shod/barefoot argument either
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Actually it is depending on "how" they are kept not "where" they are kept as to whether they can go barefoot. And I think the OP was placing farriers against trimmers to some extent and that will include farrier's attitudes to hard working barefoot hooves and perhaps, in some cases, their lack of knowledge of them

My Tb is very happy barefoot as are many others so have you ever asked why your
horses couldn't cope?
 
pipsqueek said:
Think you are straying from the original question, I was just answering that a farrier has a far longer training in all aspects of hoof care than a bare-foot trimmer. How can you make a generalisation of what all farriers say about saying 'his feet are too short even though the horse is perfectly sound' etc... where do you get that information from??

Of course some native pony types can go shoe free (had a n.f pony as a child which never needed shoeing), and other horses depending on their hooves/ where they are kept/ what they are expected to do. No way could either of mine! Don't thinks the OP meant this to be a shod/barefoot argument either
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1. It is not an imprisonable offence to broaden a discussion :D

2. I did not say "all" farriers say those things. Where did I get them from? I got them from people on this forum, they are the two most common things which are said or done by farriers who do not understand hardworking barefoot hooves.

3. I'll be my bottom dollar that in my environment, with my knowledge and time, I can get both your horses rock crunching within six months, provided that they do not have an untreatable metabolic disease. This is NOT a criticism of you, it just means that I am able to provide the time and environment that some horses require to be happy barefoot. If you are not, then obviously you should shoe, as you quite rightly do.

4. I think that's exactly what the OP meant :p
 
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pastel said:
Totally agree with the person who said it takes years to train as a farrier and no time as a bare foot trimmer, just another fad and people getting ripped off...........
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It is true that anyone with no training whatsoever can work as a barefoot trimmer legally in this country.

It is NOT true that it takes no time to train as a barefoot trimmer. The trimmers who are qualified with the four reputable organisations have studied for a long time to get their qualifications.

No, not as long as a farrier has been an apprentice, but apprentices spend a very long time learning to bend metal which a trimmer will never need to do. They don't spend as much time in college as people seem to think, and parts of the course have nothing to do with shoeing but with learning how to run their business. Lastly, apprenticeships were designed to be that long centuries ago for the trainee to repay his master with low paid work for the time that he has spent teaching him his craft.

There are major parts of hoof function which are taught on the barefoot courses which are not taught to farriers. There is a farrier Moorman who posts on this forum who says he will trust a trained trimmer to know more about the mechanics of the hoof than a farrier is taught. Farrier apprentices are not taught in detail about nutrition or metabolic diseases.

There are some great farrier trimmers. The shame of it is that their controlling body does not appear to be trying to learn from the advances of the barefoot movement and that they support and protect farriers who are putting shoes on horses which patently do not need them, like most small ponies, most cobs and most horses that only do dressage or school.

Why why why do most farriers simply nail shoes on sound and happy three or four year olds without advising the owner to see how they go on without them?
 
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Nocturnal said:
I ride my TB on the roads all the time, he never wears too much hoof away ;).

How many miles do you ride each time?
How many hours and at what pace?
How many times a week?
Do you do endurance?
Does your horse have any confirmation faults? Any former injuries, what age is he/she and what breed/weight?
There is a reason for me asking.
Each horse is different. Each rider is different in what they ask their horse to do. Horses will wear away hoof, it is a natural process. You don't see many wild horses that roam needing trims.
Some horses may have injuries or confirmation faults that may make them prone to wearing away parts of their feet quicker than others. Ask any farrier they will tell you. I am glad your horse seems perfect then. Many others are not, even with the best support in the world ;)
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Fantasy_World said:
Nocturnal said:
Each horse is different. Each rider is different in what they ask their horse to do. Horses will wear away hoof, it is a natural process. You don't see many wild horses that roam needing trims.
Some horses may have injuries or confirmation faults that may make them prone to wearing away parts of their feet quicker than others. Ask any farrier they will tell you. I am glad your horse seems perfect then. Many others are not, even with the best support in the world ;)
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I agree with the first 3 sentences and then there is a massive problem with knowledge of bio mechanics and hooves.

You dont cure conformation faults by shoeing - actually frequently this actually accentuates it because you're adding a weight to the end of the horses foot causing him to move his legs differently. This can throw things out further up as well (seen in an exaggerated way by the weird shoeing in walking horses in america).

If a horse did wear one part of its hoof slightly more than another then a good trimmer/farrier would be able to address this by providing a trim balanced to that individual horses hoof - its not a one size fits all solution like shoeing purports to be.

Its not the best support in the world, its the best informed ;)
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Fantasy_World said:
Nocturnal said:
. Horses will wear away hoof, it is a natural process. You don't see many wild horses that roam needing trims.
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Yes horses wear away hoof but the great thing is that the more they wear the faster they grow. It is then just a question of balancing work with wear and increasing work gradually.

Horses with old injuries or imblances in their body have this clever design feature called a hoof which when allowed to will grow the correct shape that the horse actually needs (if given enough work and correct diet). A farrier or trimmer will make a hoof look correct to our eyes but only the horse can make a hoof correct to feel right.

An interesting example. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/puzzling-hoof.html
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Why why why do most farriers simply nail shoes on sound and happy three or four year olds without advising the owner to see how they go on without them?[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with you there and also with regard to younger horses too.
Personally I don't think any horse should be shod unless it really needs to be, but that is my own view.
I would always agree to try the barefoot route first. I always advocate this to any horse people I meet, whose horses are shod. Not to lecture them, but to find out exactly the reason why there horse is shod.
All of mine are unshod. One came to me shod, and had tried bare in the past and has also been re-shod fully and partially. He has now been unshod for let me see ..... getting on for nearly 3 years now. He has spavin in both hocks and a sidebone in a fore ( farrier picked this up for me, as I didn't know). Almost 21 and a heavy horse cross and is huge. Doesn't do as much riding now due to age and his arthritis problems. Has been ridden more this winter though and last winter as my mare was out on loan and this winter she has been recovering from illness.
Other a cob, with feet as hard as nails. Again came to me wearing a pair of shoes. That was 6 years ago. I had them taken off and after that time he has remained mainly barefoot and has had fronts on twice and a whole set of shoes around twice in 6 years! The shoes were tried as he was wearing his front feet down quite quickly as he is slightly pigeon toed and bum high so is heavy on the forehand. He also forges with his back feet.
He again has been bare now for nearly 3 years and unless he needs shoes for a medical reason he won't be shod again. He gets ridden a lot, perhaps the most of all and at peak times up to 3/4 times a week which may not sound like much but considering my short hacks are at least 2 hours and around 10 miles plus and longest are around 5 hours and 20+++ miles, as well as him doing endurance rides of 10, 12, or 20 miles, I think it is plenty enough for him. I am not a school person and so don't just pop in the school for half an hour to lunge/ride.
One horse is a young cob cross. He again has good feet so won't be shod at all, unless for a medical reason ( ie heart bar shoes, but would try the bare route first if it could be done). As he is an unknown then until he starts working and being ridden when old enough I have no idea how he will wear his feet down.
The other is a tb, ex racer. Good feet for a tb, has just one slight flat front on the fore. 19 years of age. Came to me unshod as was a broodmare. Was tried by someone who used to ride her for me, and they thought she needed shoes as was a bit toey. She was shod all round and has had fronts on too. Shoes came off when on loan ( I agreed) in September 2010 and she was barefoot. Came home last May from loan and feet were a bit too short for my liking ( farrier also agreed she was short and also pigeon toed, which she had not been before). With help of my farrier her feet have improved a lot and are perfect now. She was ridden last summer barefoot and did fine. Again long hacks and plenty of roadwork as well as doing an endurance ride. She is starting work again this month ( when I am better) and will stay barefoot. My farrier agrees with me that if a horse doesn't need shoes, don't shoe it!
 
Fantasy_World said:
Some horses may have injuries or confirmation faults that may make them prone to wearing away parts of their feet quicker than others.
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I have owned, own now, or know very well, several of these. Provided they are not made to do too much work on abrasive surfaces too soon, these horses grow thicker horn and thicker sole callous, in time, on the parts of the hoof subject to extra wear.

The challenge with these horses is to learn to leave well alone in the early stages and not try to give them beautiful symmetric looking feet when they do not have beautiful symmetric movement.
 
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cptrayes said:
I have owned, own now, or know very well, several of these. Provided they are not made to do too much work on abrasive surfaces too soon, these horses grow thicker horn and thicker sole callous, in time, on the parts of the hoof subject to extra wear.

The challenge with these horses is to learn to leave well alone in the early stages and not try to give them beautiful symmetric looking feet when they do not have beautiful symmetric movement.
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I agree with this but there is a point that the distortion starts to drive the limb, The clever bit is to know when to leave and when to remove. Like all things in life there are good owners, good riders good farriers and good trimmers and those that fall short.
 
A Guilding said:
I agree with this but there is a point that the distortion starts to drive the limb, The clever bit is to know when to leave and when to remove. Like all things in life there are good owners, good riders good farriers and good trimmers and those that fall short.
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I have always found that the horse knows what to leave and what to keep, provided his work is matched to the wear on his feet. The problem with trimming is that it is second guessing what the horse needs.

One of mine, after six months, was beginning to look as if his whole foot was going to go windswept and it was nerve-wracking to leave well alone. Now, he lands with the whole of the back of his foot at the same time, instead of flipping his foot over, and his leg (it's a front one) is straight. His action is not straight, and the leg is not perpendicular to the ground, it hits the floot on a centre line of his body, not in line with the shoulder. But by building the foot that he has, he is putting the forces directly and evenly up through every joint in his leg. If he was trimmed to move the leg straight, then there would be significant uneven forces somewhere in his fetlock, knee or shoulder or possibly all three.

I agree with you that there was a point when it looked as though foot distortion was in danger of driving the leg, but this wasn't the case, it was simply a work in progress.

Having now seen many horses move straighter out of shoes, with wonky feet, it's my belief that we are tempted to do too much to "help" the horse when he knows full well how to build the foot best suited to his own leg and except in the most extreme cases should be allowed to get on with it.

Have you seen the post on the Rockley blog of an extreme extension (medial I think) which has been produced by a sound horse with a very significant shoulder injury? I wondered when I saw it what you would have done with it. I'm not trying to fight here, I think we have a true revolution going on in horse biomechanics and we all need to talk to understand when the right time to intervene is, if ever.

This is the foot:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/puzzling-hoof.html
 
cptrayes said:
I have owned, own now, or know very well, several of these. Provided they are not made to do too much work on abrasive surfaces too soon, these horses grow thicker horn and thicker sole callous, in time, on the parts of the hoof subject to extra wear.

The challenge with these horses is to learn to leave well alone in the early stages and not try to give them beautiful symmetric looking feet when they do not have beautiful symmetric movement.
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Some good points which is why I always chat with my farrier before any work is done to any of mine and he always asks how they are in general health, especially about my big lad who has more problems than any of them. My aim is always to have them as comfortable as they can be for their workload. The big man is likely to be reducing his workload though as the months progress when the mare is back up to speed as my original intention was to semi retire him nearly 2 years ago but things didn't pan out that way and last winter he seemed very supple. This winter he has been more stiff and has needed a bit more bute when being ridden too. Last winter I think I hardly gave any at all to be honest. His feet though are in good shape and he didn't need much of at all last time, and none at all from underneath as was told he had levelled himself off with the riding I had been doing. I am one of those people who is not only interested in my horses feet but also so as to know what is being done and why. Unfortunately there are a great many owners who do not take the time to try and educate themselves and do not ask enough questions of farriers and trimmers. Hence the reason I think that things go wrong.
I don't think it is enough that we place our trust in professionals to be responsible for our horses health and welfare. Vets, nutritionists, farriers, trimmers, livery yard owners, grooms etc spring to mind. I believe as RESPONSIBLE owners we should learn as much as we can about the horses in our care and question professionals about decisions and actions performed. True we all guilty of making mistakes along the way, however it is whether we learn from those mistakes that is the deciding factor. As horse owners we are all here to learn, no one is perfect and should never proclaim to be.
I wish a few more people would take the time to learn about their horses and horses in general though rather than leaving everything up to the 'professionals'. Maybe if we all did that, then perhaps less equines would suffer as a result.
 
Have you seen the post on the Rockley blog of an extreme extension (medial I think) which has been produced by a sound horse with a very significant shoulder injury? I wondered when I saw it what you would have done with it. I'm not trying to fight here, I think we have a true revolution going on in horse biomechanics and we all need to talk to understand when the right time to intervene is, if ever.

This is the foot:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/puzzling-hoof.html[/QUOTE]

.........................................................................

I would of put an equal radius in that toe, almost certainly left the bottom alone as P3 would be sat low on the lateral side. The flare would increase the lever arm as the foot breaks over as there is a torsional rotation in that capsule. Luckily the foot is strong.
 
Clava said:
but I think this horse is only sound with this shape...
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With a hoof that strong I doubt that. It is so hard to put this in post form as im not great at typing. When you get asymmetry through trauma then its a bit like throwing it all up in the air and hoping you are right with what you decide. some times the biomech abnormalities are gait specific so what seems appropriate at one pace isn't the action for another. But the medial flare itself will cause a problem even though it has a different origin to the other aspects of the hoof capsule distortion. As I have said before the capsule represents a picture of the forces placed on it, the problem comes when that distortion when unchecked leads to further complications.
 
A Guilding said:
How has the flare developed do you think?
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The horse seems to have developed that shape to support it (my TB does the same with her hinds where her movement is very close behind, but to a much lesser degree), where is doesn't need support it hasn't developed - how do you explain this?
 
Clava said:
The horse seems to have developed that shape to support it (my TB does the same with her hinds where her movement is very close behind, but to a much lesser degree), where is doesn't need support it hasn't developed - how do you explain this?
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That wasnt what I asked, can you tell me the forces on the hoof in the picture that caused the flare on the medial wing. When you know the answer its very interesting and gives you a bit of insight into what to rip off and what to leave. I try and leave the word support out as I feel to many people hide behind that word and I'm not sure I know whether it is a relevant phrase to use.
 
amandap said:
My understanding is that this isn't flare it is a deviation. Flare is accompanied by white line stretch etc. but in deviation the white line is tight and healthy along with basically good general health of the hoof capsule.
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So what caused the deviation?
 
I think a need for support that a 'normal' shaped hoof isn't providing. So a lack of 'correct' support for that limb at that time...
 
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