can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

YasandCrystal said:
I think you are being very generalistic here. My husband is a fully trained and registered farrier; he spends alot of time understanding diet and movement. He is quick to suggest going barefoot to those owners whose horses he believes will benefit from it. He actively encourages many to take off hind shoes as so many horses can cope barefoot behind.
It doesn't suit every horse to go barefoot - it doesn't suit every owner. 3 of mine are barefoot, but my mare isn't because it doesn't suit me.

Many competing horses use studs and are shod on that basis if for no other reason. My husband carries out very good barefoot trims. He has also seen some diabolical work by unqualified trimmers, who even with their time consuming grid mappings get the balance totally wrong. He also sees poor farriery without a doubt.

You say about how after a couple of weeks natural wear and tear the foot will look the same from both a farrier's or trimmer's trim then why oh why would anyone want to pay a trimmer double the price of a farrier's trim????? It's a no brainer.

It angers him to see trimmers charging more than double his rate for a trim under the guise of a 'holistic approach' for a skill they have mastered in a weekend. He spent many years in his apprenticeship , he doesn't need a ruler and a grid to see the balance of a foot. And for goodness sake please - good farriers have always been giving dietary advice and watchiing horse movement and trimming/shoeing accordingly. A trimmer cannot shoe a horse so how can they ever give the owner the option of shoes?

There are good and bad in all, but don't underestimate a farrier's experience.
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Amen! :) I've been trying to say that farriers are trained in more than 'hooves & metal'!
 
Yes definately Sarah1 and if people took the bother to find a good farrier then they would get a wealth of information.
My husband is called very often as a first response to lameness - he will check for an abcess and can advise if the lameness if foot related. If I had £1 for every time he warned an owner that their horse/pony was on the verge or at risk of getting laminitis I would have a jar full. He picks up all sorts of complications that require veterinary intervention. He has got horses sound that the vets have written off. I could bore you with much more, needless to say he is pretty passionate about his job.

Some owners are poorly or ill informed and couldn't tell a well shod foot or a well trimmed foot from a bad one. That is quite sad. As owners it is our duty to ensure we are doing the best for our animal and it only takes the ask of the vet as to the balance in their opinion etc. Hubby has seen feet that shouldn't be allowed and the owners were clueless:(
 
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I would choose a farrier over a barefoot trimmer anyday for my horses.
I would trust him to do a better job of my horses feet and also to have a better understanding of my horses' anatomy as well as understanding any physical issues they have which would affect how the horse is trimmed.
Also if any of my horses needed any remedial work or to be shod or to have shoes fitted for remedial work then my farrier is not only more than capable of doing this, but is also legally able to do this. A barefoot trimmer can not shoe under any circumstances unless they are also a registered farrier.
 
Fantasy_World said:
I would choose a farrier over a barefoot trimmer anyday for my horses.
I would trust him to do a better job of my horses feet and also to have a better understanding of my horses' anatomy as well as understanding any physical issues they have which would affect how the horse is trimmed.
Also if any of my horses needed any remedial work or to be shod or to have shoes fitted for remedial work then my farrier is not only more than capable of doing this, but is also legally able to do this. A barefoot trimmer can not shoe under any circumstances unless they are also a registered farrier.
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The question was 'can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer?' not 'can a trimmer fit shoes?'. And if farriers have such a good understanding of anatomy, why is it that at least 80% of shod horses I see have some kind of issue with their feet? Shod horses with healthy feet are like hen's teeth.

Now I'm not against farriers, or dead set against shoeing, but I am against shoeing an unhealthy foot - but ime this is the norm.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Yes definately Sarah1 and if people took the bother to find a good farrier then they would get a wealth of information.
My husband is called very often as a first response to lameness - he will check for an abcess and can advise if the lameness if foot related. If I had £1 for every time he warned an owner that their horse/pony was on the verge or at risk of getting laminitis I would have a jar full. He picks up all sorts of complications that require veterinary intervention. He has got horses sound that the vets have written off. I could bore you with much more, needless to say he is pretty passionate about his job.

Some owners are poorly or ill informed and couldn't tell a well shod foot or a well trimmed foot from a bad one. That is quite sad. As owners it is our duty to ensure we are doing the best for our animal and it only takes the ask of the vet as to the balance in their opinion etc. Hubby has seen feet that shouldn't be allowed and the owners were clueless:(
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My farrier is quite often the 1st person I contact when I have any issues with my boy - he's worth his weight in gold & he's a big guy! :D

My horse had suspected back problems at 4 years old and although I had the vets, chiropractor, physio etc involved it was my farrier who gave the best advice and when I followed his advice things started to move forward very rapidly! He quite rightly labelled the back man as a 'quack' within about 5 minutes! ;)
 
Nocturnal said:
The question was 'can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer?' not 'can a trimmer fit shoes?'. And if farriers have such a good understanding of anatomy, why is it that at least 80% of shod horses I see have some kind of issue with their feet? Shod horses with healthy feet are like hen's teeth.

Now I'm not against farriers, or dead set against shoeing, but I am against shoeing an unhealthy foot - but ime this is the norm.
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Quite agree, it is the horrors of some farrier's work putting shoes on and what they do to hooves over time that make me question them and their understanding of hooves more than anything. Personally I think they can trim fine, but the fact that so many farriers state that horses need shoes to go on roads etc makes me doubt their real understanding of hooves. I like me farrier but he believes if a hoof is flat it will always be so and if a horse is working on roads it will need shoes....it shows a lack of understanding, but he does a nice trim.
 
My old farrier is always telling me how he studied and trained and is a member of the worshipful farriers etc............I would rather use a professional than go down the route of self trim/ or someone un qualified.

I am being ignorant and havent read all the posts but if barefoot trimmers belong to a regulatory professional body ie they are registered like a trained nurse or doctor to weed out the bad ones etc then fine.

I trust my farrier who does trim old boy now without his shoes and he does a FAB job. I suppose its who u trust!

Would hate to go back to old days where unskilled etc
 
YasandCrystal said:
I think you are being very generalistic here. My husband is a fully trained and registered farrier; he spends alot of time understanding diet and movement. He is quick to suggest going barefoot to those owners whose horses he believes will benefit from it. He actively encourages many to take off hind shoes as so many horses can cope barefoot behind.
It doesn't suit every horse to go barefoot - it doesn't suit every owner. 3 of mine are barefoot, but my mare isn't because it doesn't suit me.

Many competing horses use studs and are shod on that basis if for no other reason. My husband carries out very good barefoot trims. He has also seen some diabolical work by unqualified trimmers, who even with their time consuming grid mappings get the balance totally wrong. He also sees poor farriery without a doubt.

You say about how after a couple of weeks natural wear and tear the foot will look the same from both a farrier's or trimmer's trim then why oh why would anyone want to pay a trimmer double the price of a farrier's trim????? It's a no brainer.

It angers him to see trimmers charging more than double his rate for a trim under the guise of a 'holistic approach' for a skill they have mastered in a weekend. He spent many years in his apprenticeship , he doesn't need a ruler and a grid to see the balance of a foot. And for goodness sake please - good farriers have always been giving dietary advice and watchiing horse movement and trimming/shoeing accordingly. A trimmer cannot shoe a horse so how can they ever give the owner the option of shoes?

There are good and bad in all, but don't underestimate a farrier's experience.
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I completely agree with you! I have a fab farrier and did use a young chap who was equally as good! Prefer a professional any day!
 
marydoll said:
Lol now he's got the bandage of his heid he's looking better, a bit wind burned through his vest and looking like a chequer board :eek: ive told him to rug himself up tonight as its cold, and he's no getting in when he stoats back from the pub, a 400g should make the beggar sweat :D:D
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:D:D:D

I love him, the p1ssed old beggar :p
 
Clava said:
Quite agree, it is the horrors of some farrier's work putting shoes on and what they do to hooves over time that make me question them and their understanding of hooves more than anything. Personally I think they can trim fine, but the fact that so many farriers state that horses need shoes to go on roads etc makes me doubt their real understanding of hooves. I like me farrier but he believes if a hoof is flat it will always be so and if a horse is working on roads it will need shoes....it shows a lack of understanding, but he does a nice trim.
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Just like my farrier, he trims both my retired, field ornaments which he does fine as long as I stand over him and tell him every time "Leave the Bl**dy sole and frogs alone!!" However as he looked at my new barefoot loan pony who trims herself he shook his head and said she needed shoes as she was wearing her toe too much and she had "nothing" to take off the walls :( groan. He was quite suprised when I told him I was doing 4 x 2 hour hacks a week, at least half of that on roads/tracks.
 
AngieandBen said:
Just like my farrier, he trims both my retired, field ornaments which he does fine as long as I stand over him and tell him every time "Leave the Bl**dy sole and frogs alone!!" However as he looked at my new barefoot loan pony who trims herself he shook his head and said she needed shoes as she was wearing her toe too much and she had "nothing" to take off the walls :( groan. He was quite suprised when I told him I was doing 4 x 2 hour hacks a week, at least half of that on roads/tracks.
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Yes, I think that attitude is most common (or certainly is with all the farriers I have met).
 
AngieandBen said:
he does fine as long as I stand over him and tell him every time "Leave the Bl**dy sole and frogs alone!!" .
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Sounds like my ex farrier until the day he ignored me, trimmed the frogs and left my poor pony sore.
I would have liked to have stayed with him as he's a nice guy and very conscientious but he just couldn't get out of that mindset that you trim the frogs and soles because that's what you do.
 
Not that I am being pedantic but...... what is SO complicated about a hoof trim that not even an owner can do???

Oh and please could someone point me to a study where shoeing has CURED a navicular/tendon case please???
 
tallyho! said:
Not that I am being pedantic but...... what is SO complicated about a hoof trim that not even an owner can do???

Oh and please could someone point me to a study where shoeing has CURED a navicular/tendon case please???
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A very good experienced horse friend of mine told me they use to trim their old boys feet as they thought they could do it themselves and they always had to get a farrier out to trim their bad job they did a couple of times a year as they could never do it right!. What will happen when some num nut makes a hash of it. My farrier tried to teach me just to and the weight of the horses leg etc etc no way could i have attempted what he makes look so easy!

Does concern me that where people can make some money they might set up a trimming service unregulated etc. My Farrier was telling me that since the opening of the EU there had been folks who had not had same training etc and customers had run into problems.
 
indie999 said:
A very good experienced horse friend of mine told me they use to trim their old boys feet as they thought they could do it themselves and they always had to get a farrier out to trim their bad job they did a couple of times a year as they could never do it right!. What will happen when some num nut makes a hash of it. My farrier tried to teach me just to and the weight of the horses leg etc etc no way could i have attempted what he makes look so easy!

Does concern me that where people can make some money they might set up a trimming service unregulated etc. My Farrier was telling me that since the opening of the EU there had been folks who had not had same training etc and customers had run into problems.
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Ridiculous counter argument. I asked what is so complicated, not what has gone wrong! I don't really care about that.... plenty goes wrong in professional hands.... however, the idiot owning the horse must first realise IF it's going wrong in order to do something about it.

SO, at what point do you know if it's going wrong???? what does it take to know?? Do you even care???

Regulation is by the by IMO - look at the NHS..... and then the people it looks after.
 
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Nocturnal said:
The question was 'can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer?' not 'can a trimmer fit shoes?'. And if farriers have such a good understanding of anatomy, why is it that at least 80% of shod horses I see have some kind of issue with their feet? Shod horses with healthy feet are like hen's teeth.

Now I'm not against farriers, or dead set against shoeing, but I am against shoeing an unhealthy foot - but ime this is the norm.
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Ah yes but you see there could be a chance that one of my horses may in fact need a set or partial set of shoes to be put on, either for remedial or because they are wearing away too much hoof due to the roadwork that is needed to get to every bridle path in the area! I don't think I will be going down the boots route, before anyone suggests that. So do I stick with my farrier to trim or go with someone who does just trims! That was my point.
I think I would stick with my farrier thanks, oh and btw he doesn't advocate shoeing unless absolutely necessary ;) Also as this person sees my horses regularly and knows their health, age and my riding targets then it is better for them if they are seen by the same person every time, rather than several, continuity of care for my horses' feet.
As for your question about the shod horses and having issues with their feet.
Blame the bloody owners not the farriers!
A farrier will mostly do what the owner asks.
I know of and have known of horses that have had shoes fitted for no bloody reason whatsoever.
Cannot get my head around it to be honest. If you can't be arsed to go down the bare route and research what your horse needs to have perfect feet then take the easier option and whack a pair of shoes on.
Whereas in fact the process of nailing shoes into their feet and the weight of the shoe on the hoof perhaps does more damage than just leaving it bare and riding.
I am not referring to horses that need remedial shoeing or those whose poor hoof structure needs some kind of shoe for support, even if a glue on shoe. I am talking about the thousands of horses on livery yards just shod for being shod's sake!
Each to their own, but please don't try and tar all farriers with the same brush and I will never, ever have anyone utter a bad word against my farrier as he is the best one I have ever met!
 
It takes 4/5 yrs to train to be a farrier, and trimming/preparing the hoof is an important part as actually shoeing the horse. (OH is farrier...) Even so would rather have a qualified farrier to shoe/trim than anyone else with considerably less training, you should still be happy with whoever you employ to see to your horses feet though, maybe ask around locally for recommendations if not.
 
pipsqueek said:
It takes 4/5 yrs to train to be a farrier, and trimming/preparing the hoof is an important part as actually shoeing the horse. (OH is farrier...) Even so would rather have a qualified farrier to shoe/trim than anyone else with considerably less training, you should still be happy with whoever you employ to see to your horses feet though, maybe ask around locally for recommendations if not.
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Whether your particular farrier has ever seen hardworking barefoot horses will depend firstly on whether the man he trained with had any, because it is not a college taught part of the syllabus and if his master has none, he will see none. Then if he has seen none during his apprenticeship it will depend on whether he has actively taken any interest in hardworking barefoot horses.

And I mean hard working. Happy hackers, schoolers and paddock ornaments feet often look nothing like the feet of a horse who is happy to do miles on tarmac and go up stony paths.

Not all farriers are the same. Many are brilliant. Unfortunately far too many are still making comments like "you'll need shoes if you want to do roadwork", "his feet are too short" (even though the horse is pefectly sound) or preparing the hoof by taking off sole like they would if they are about to fit a shoe.

In my opinion the FRC need to grasp this one and make sure all farriers in training are taught about hard working shoe free horses. This is not currently the case.
 
I think that the wording of the question sets up one camp against the other and its never as simple as that is it ;)

I took Taz;s shoes off 12 years ago with my very lovely farrier ... and it was him that got her to the stage of this .... cantering on very hard stony ground on endurance rides

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yet the farrier that had to examine her feet beforehand ( always doen as endurance rides for all horses) had not wanted to let us start and said he needed a letter from my farrier to say I had not just whipped her shoes off because she had lost one and did not have the time to get it replaced. What the ****........ was he soooooooo stoopid he could not look at her feet and find no nail holes and there fore tell she had been weeks if not months at least without shoes :rolleyes: . He only let me take part because I had hoofboots with me ( well I was a girl guide so always go prepared :rolleyes:)

I learnt loads from my farrier, always asking questions... and he learnt from me too as he asked my advice about hoofboots / barefoot with regard to a little pone he just could not get even a glue on shoe to stay on or make him comfy. Neither of us too proud to not learn from each other.


When trimnmers became more available (and I could find a non strasser one)........ Taz's ( and Bonnies) feet were then trimmed by a trimmer ...... and again I asked questions and learnt more. We moved and it was another very good farrier..... yet more questions . and he showed me how to rasp a bit as he was a very buy man and could not always fit us in when we needed looking at. He then retired and we could not find another good / reccomended farrier but found another trimmer ..... just not very near us ;). She did a great job and again I learnt more and more ....... and did more and more rasping between her visits too.


Now she only visit once or twice a year and I do the rest.


In all this time never had any issues with lameness, footiness and just very occasional use of boots when we doing a lot of roadwork ( Taz drives too and we had to get fit for doing DT and trec).

Her feet were even checked by a master farrier ( we have a school of farriery nearby) on a visit to the yard who knew nothing about who did her feet and he said they were great and needed nothing doing to them. ;)





I think that there have been some appauling examples of barefoot trimmers.

I think there are appauling examples of farriers




I think that barefoot trimmers that study with a reputable organisation do a LOT more study than 15 days before certification as a qualified trimmer but sadly some people do not actually look properly at the courses and lock onto thinking that the foundation course is the complete course and not looking at the whole syllabus / course. ........ and then state as "fact" that barefoot trimmers only do 15 days study which is erroneous ;)

Many farriers are knowledgable and supportive of enabling horses to function effectively without shoes supplying managment advice as well as just trimming ........... but there are indeed some who are (ignorantly or wilfully) blind to the fact that many horses can and do function very well in full work without shoes and provide only a "grass trim" which is not quite the same (because the intent is always to shoe later ;) )




so OP .............. tis not a yes or no question
 
tallyho! said:
Ridiculous counter argument. I asked what is so complicated, not what has gone wrong! I don't really care about that.... plenty goes wrong in professional hands.... however, the idiot owning the horse must first realise IF it's going wrong in order to do something about it.

SO, at what point do you know if it's going wrong???? what does it take to know?? Do you even care???

Regulation is by the by IMO - look at the NHS..... and then the people it looks after.
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yes to get all of this experience I would rather use a professional as a professional experienced person will "KNOW IF ITS GOING WRONG", they will have "WHAT IT TAKES TO KNOW" and yes they wouldnt be doing the job if they didnt "CARE"? Go to india and see the state of those poor ponies. There are plenty of shod horses on lots of yards who dont have problems either. I have had many horses over 30 years and have not had a shoeing/foot problem and many that go WITH/WITHOUT. But I prefer a farrier and would rather use regulated person. Its a bit like going to see a doctor who isnt qualified? My farrier came highly recommended and I trust him completely, he can do barefoot etc or shoe both types! He has honed his skills over many years and has had professional guidance and training. I dont think DIY is the way to go.
 
indie999 said:
yes to get all of this experience I would rather use a professional as a professional experienced person will "KNOW IF ITS GOING WRONG", they will have "WHAT IT TAKES TO KNOW" and yes they wouldnt be doing the job if they didnt "CARE"?
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I would love to agree with this, as it should be the case - but you only have to have been a member of this forum a few months to start seeing really bad examples of shod feet, posted by people in desperation with lame horses. It was clearly going wrong, farrier clearly didn't have what it takes to know, and i believe in some cases that no, they didn't care.

Just because they are 'professionals' you can't rest on your laurels. There are good and bad in every profession, so a degree of self education is required.

I'd love to start a thread called 'show me your well shod hooves' but i think it could be a bit inflammatory - so i won't :D. But i know my idea of a well shod hoof has changed dramatically in the last year or so, just reading and learning what is correct (not what is 'normal').

Trina x
 
I have to laugh at anyone suggesting a trimmer - or a farrier for that matter - does it "to make a quick buck" Have you ever tried it? Getting hauled around by ill mannered, untrained hulks of youngsters - or worse, ill mannered, untrained hulks of adult horses whose owners haven't been bothered to train them - is not something I'd want to do for a living!
 
Well my new girl is barefoot and I hope to keep her that way in truth and will be keeping my same farrier who did Seren as he is a good farrier whom I have used for years and I trust his work
 
cptrayes said:
Whether your particular farrier has ever seen hardworking barefoot horses will depend firstly on whether the man he trained with had any, because it is not a college taught part of the syllabus and if his master has none, he will see none. Then if he has seen none during his apprenticeship it will depend on whether he has actively taken any interest in hardworking barefoot horses.

And I mean hard working. Happy hackers, schoolers and paddock ornaments feet often look nothing like the feet of a horse who is happy to do miles on tarmac and go up stony paths.

Not all farriers are the same. Many are brilliant. Unfortunately far too many are still making comments like "you'll need shoes if you want to do roadwork", "his feet are too short" (even though the horse is pefectly sound) or preparing the hoof by taking off sole like they would if they are about to fit a shoe.

In my opinion the FRC need to grasp this one and make sure all farriers in training are taught about hard working shoe free horses. This is not currently the case.
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Think you are straying from the original question, I was just answering that a farrier has a far longer training in all aspects of hoof care than a bare-foot trimmer. How can you make a generalisation of what all farriers say about saying 'his feet are too short even though the horse is perfectly sound' etc... where do you get that information from??

Of course some native pony types can go shoe free (had a n.f pony as a child which never needed shoeing), and other horses depending on their hooves/ where they are kept/ what they are expected to do. No way could either of mine! Don't thinks the OP meant this to be a shod/barefoot argument either
 
Totally agree with the person who said it takes years to train as a farrier and no time as a bare foot trimmer, just another fad and people getting ripped off...........
 
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