can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

queenbee said:
;) :D :D :D



mines like that :), come to think of it, we must have the same farrier, perhaps mine commutes up country, your farrier likes you, mine was kicked in the head by a horse... they must be the same farrier :D :D:D





That was actually because the very reasonably priced Remedial Farrier, snuck into the stable at night and continued the horses treatment, god anyone would think your FF had qualifications, expericence and knowledge or something and not just a fit bod and winning smile ;) :p

Starzaan said:
I have no issue with "barefoot" horses I think it depends entirely on the person doing the job QUOTE] snap/ ditto and all that :)
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YOU cretin.
Careful, or I'll send the mechanic your way... he's not dead!
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iv not read this whole thread but having just had both my horses shoes taken off, one due to navicular and the other as she isnt in work. i thought about getting a barefoot trimmer but my farrier is one of the best in my area and fully supports my decision and is doing a great job. i dont know a barefoot trimmer in my area and i am happy with the work mine is doing.

just on a separate thought. just looking at your blogs lucy priory, i have looked at a few of them with interest. but the one thing that pops into my head on a few of the photos is why on earth would you let your horses feet get in that state in the first place?? its nice to see they come right but why let it get that bad? surley as an owner you would say something. i know i would.
 
Starzaan said:
queenbee said:
;) :D :D :D



mines like that :), come to think of it, we must have the same farrier, perhaps mine commutes up country, your farrier likes you, mine was kicked in the head by a horse... they must be the same farrier :D :D:D





That was actually because the very reasonably priced Remedial Farrier, snuck into the stable at night and continued the horses treatment, god anyone would think your FF had qualifications, expericence and knowledge or something and not just a fit bod and winning smile ;) :p




YOU cretin.
Careful, or I'll send the mechanic your way... he's not dead!
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oh darlin, fighting talk! I am not fwigtened of your mechanic, I have a freakin farmer that I can send to you who thinks its just fine to smash cars houses and people in, you can have him.... we can play swapises since we obviously already share a farrier ;)


Be careful, or else I may push the button on you and tell TFC you called me a cretin, I do believe that to insult a forum user is against the rules and results in an infarction (or so they told me :p)...





... beeeeeatch!
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china said:
... just looking at your blogs lucy priory, i have looked at a few of them with interest. but the one thing that pops into my head on a few of the photos is why on earth would you let your horses feet get in that state in the first place?? its nice to see they come right but why let it get that bad? surley as an owner you would say something. i know i would.
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In the cases on the blog the owners have said something. 'Fred's' owner was told that the feet couldn't be shortened.

The hooning lami owner was told to PTS as there was nothing to be done.

Mostly the people I work with have come to their decision over a long period of time, it is not a step taken lightly. The ones who are less considered in their approach don't last long.

Also one of the owners commented that the photos show the feet in a new light, different to how they perceive them when still attached to the horse....... Which is true enough, the camera gets down and dirty in a way many people don't. I bought a shock and water proof one for obvious reasons :-) Not sure it's poo proof though.

Some owners are also a bit intimidated by their farriers/vets; and there can be no criticism in that; some farriers/vets are intimidating (heck I am sure some people find me intimidating), but if you have been told they are the best and know no different? It is only when the horse is consistently lame despite years of remedial farriery and huge vets bills that eyes start to open a bit and questions then get asked.
 
chestnuttymare said:
He doesn't seem to list it in his qualifications then. My apologies if i was wrong. Not sure why it is important whether he is an alien or not.
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Re the alien - my vet is convinced I am a witch because 'difficult' horses keep coming right and he doesn't really understand how. Therefore it must be magic?

Well I am reasonably assured Nick isn't magical either and he has a very long track record of getting horses right. If not witch maybe an alien?

NOTE
Late at night, after no sleep I stuff sugar and get very very silly. Just like a horse that has had too many lickits! :-) I have no need for alcohol or drugs - sugar is enough :-)

But yes Nick was a farrier (one of those fancy ones too) - I guess he doesn't list it because for him maybe it isn't relevant.

I've trained with a few (ex) farriers and that seems to be their view. I am not going to go into third party reporting though and suggest why that may be - you will have to ask them.
 
Obviously there are good and bad farriers and trimmers.

Going barefoot is the way forward and having been that way for some years now see no justification at all for shoeing.

Different folk telling you how good or bad their own farrier/trimmer is won't really help, you need someone local who you are happy does a good job.
 
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china said:
iv not read this whole thread but having just had both my horses shoes taken off, one due to navicular and the other as she isnt in work. i thought about getting a barefoot trimmer but my farrier is one of the best in my area and fully supports my decision and is doing a great job. i dont know a barefoot trimmer in my area and i am happy with the work mine is doing.

just on a separate thought. just looking at your blogs lucy priory, i have looked at a few of them with interest. but the one thing that pops into my head on a few of the photos is why on earth would you let your horses feet get in that state in the first place?? its nice to see they come right but why let it get that bad? surley as an owner you would say something. i know i would.
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I agree. I think those pictures actually highlight how ignorant and incapable some owners are. Why would you let your horses feet get into such a terrible state? Why would you then blame the farrier, Wouldn't you change farrier? I suppose because you don't have much of a clue (which is no excuse).

I think as a previous poster said, there is an increasing amount of interest amongst the mainstream horse owning population regarding going barefoot when possible. I know I love the idea more farriers should come onside.
What is offputting though are the proponents of the idea who are patronising, rude and seem rather liberal with the facts.
 
brucea said:
Pointless discussion Lucy - you won't change the way people feel - they will be pro farrier and anti trimmer. And the horses will have ongoing problems throughout their lives. And navicular syndrome, contraction, underrun heels, and concussion injuries will be just a fact of life for many of these animals.

Well I'll have a good trimer any day - the trimmer I know best is not only a trimmer, but was a master saddler, and has travelled worldwide learning about horse behaviour - she's good, very good indeed.

I'm not qualified, but I trim mine, and yes I can hear the righteous indignation boiling up from way up in the North here already . :)

Anyone can come and inspect thier feet, if you're in my area please do, the vet sees them regularly and likes what I do, I even have recent xrays that show the balance is spot on.

I do a few other horses too - tough ones with behaviour issues - and the owners are very happy with my work (they have very sound happy horses who don't get battered with tools any more)

It's really not that difficult and there is no "mystery" to it, just understanding what the hoof is and what it does.

P.S. I said unqualified, not untrained. There's a difference. I didn't just pick up a rasp one day.
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My sister is a barefoot trimmer and had to study for several years and pass exams and practicals to qualify. She lives 4 hours away from me though so she doesn't do my horses. My farrier is brilliant and I use him for both my shod horses and my barefoot horses. However, he is the only farrier barr one that I would use for barefoot. I find many farriers are disinterested in correcting underrun heels etc. They continue to put on shoes that are far too small and give little support, and their trimming is completely thoughtless.

So I think it depends on the farrier concerned.
 
intouch said:
Yep!

But the problem with (some) farriers can be,as I see it, once they've qualified, that's it, they can do their own thing. To stay qualified, trimmers belonging to the main associations have to do regular CPD days to keep up to date.

Did you know that when they were drafting the National Occupational Standards, the farriers had to raise the bar to come up to the standards required by the trimmers in at least one area?

Just make sure your trimmer is qualified with one of the recognised Associations and you have quality hoof care.
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Farriers are also required to do Continuing Professional Development and speaking to a couple of farriers in my area I found they were very much in favour of this. Horseowners have a responsibility to use the best professionals they can and if you use a poor farrier or trimmer to look after your horses feet, then the onus is on you, as an owner.
Farriers were also instrumental in the consultation process for the guidelines of the NOS which seeks to raise standards in the industry, but the development of NOS are not exclusive to shoeing/trimming. New standards are being put in place for many equine workers, including the BFT's. Lantra aim is precisely to raise and regulate standards across the board.

Dear friend is just about to qualify as a BFT, decided to become one few months ago. Looked up some courses, paid his dosh and, - 8 more trims and he's done. Nice.
 
Trimmers tend to look at more than just the hoof - they'll have spent a lot of time uderstanding diet, movement etc. and will try to understand the overall helath and chartacteristics of that horse.

My farrier does this, he's very good. IMO you can't beat a good farrier for looking after your horses hooves - shod or not. Obv a rubbish farrier can wreck them but so could a barefoot( foot???!!!) trimmer
 
What I don't like about BFT movement is that nothing else is as good and we are all cruel for not doing as they do attitude.

For what it's worth, I have an arab - unshod for years (at my farriers suggestion) and has been absolutely fine. I also have a warmblood who had the most horrendous feet when I first got her - it has taken several years and a lot of hard work but she now has normal looking hooves and is unshod behind. My farrier gave me loads of feed and supplement advice for her. She had colic sugery over the summer and he even suggested that since she was on box rest anyway she should have a break from shoes to help her feet.

A couple of people on the yard have a BFT, he seems like a nice conscientious guy. One horse has similar hooves to the arab and is fine. The other has no end of problems; he struggles to walk on anything slightly stony and has constant bruising.

Like anything, some good farriers, some not so good. Some good BFT, some not so good. Some horses can cope unshod - some not. Ultimately, you as the owner are responsible for making sure that whoever does your horses hooves does a good job.
 
i had a farrier trim my horses' hooves for a while but he basically cocked it up. he never listened when i said i wanted to keep him barefoot and when it came to my native youngsters he kept trying to trim them for shoeing, again i didn't want them to have shoes on, they've got great little feet.
as it has turned out because of his shoeing (initially) and now the trimming he has knackered my horses' feet up, i went with a barefoot trimmer and i can see the difference in the way my horse moves and my vet is very happy with the improvement in his feet.

so for me i'm sticking with my trimmer unless i move area and a great farrier is recommended!
 
I don't think it matters.
I've always had a farrier trim my horse's feet and he's always been sound. As long as he sound and happy, I couldn't really give a rats backside who trims my horse's feet.
 
Hmm well I would not use a barefoot trimmer, I was lucky enough to have Simon Curtis as an ear to bend when Tarquin was being broken in, he (despite being a world renowned farrier and so very expensive for shoes) said that I should try to keep T unshod if possible and advised my own farrier on this. Sadly he just couldn't tolerate the sand with flints in that we had were I was, so I went to just being shod in front. All my farriers have asked for the horses to be walked up for them and my current farrier has seen T under saddle (his wife rode T for a bit) so he understands how his foot balance relates to the rest of him. He is shod allround here now, I will never ever leave his front shoes off again. I did this a few years ago when I was injured, Tarquin upon returning to work went very lame. The vets pointed out that him being unshod and slightly over weight with a dishing action on his right leg were the likely cause for him doing his suspensory. He is incredible difficult to keep weight off and so needs a lot of work, thus more pressure on his legs, the vets said I should never take his front shoes off. I am inclined to go with them and will not be trying to go barefoot again. ( and that was Rossdales BTW so a very good equine practice)
 
After the state of a pony's feet i saw the other day i would never let a farrier near any horse of mine. The farrier trimmed said pony's feet on tues. Barefoot trimmer came to do liveries on fri and took a look at pony. It's hooves were long, very high healed and the smell coming from them. It's feet literally smelt like they were rotting! Trimmer sorted out ponies feet a treat. She has helped me with a lot to do with my horses feet. I personally don't think you can beat a decent barefoot trimmer.
 
These threads are always the same & always show closed mindeness to Farriers or BFT.

I personally don't care who's better on paper I go with who does the best job for my horses. The Farrier failed & I moved to a BFT 2 months ago, the change in my horses hooves is fantastic & all of the hooves are looking brilliant. Why couldn't my farrier do that? In all honesty I cannot say as he is the one who's trained for years. Yet he's also the one who trimmed one of my horses back so far he was hopping lame for 2 weeks.

As for BFT people being against Farriers I can say my BFT doesn't mind she is very much like myself & is open to what the horse needs not what drives ego's.

I'm not against Farriers at all but I can say the BFT is doing a much much better job for my horses.
 
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As i am sure many of you have heard of the lack of farriers in Aberdeenshire. I cant find a farrier that will turn up, or be on time, or turn up on the right day or even the right month, answer their phone, take a booking!!! So this year i am going to have to turn to barefoot trimmer.

I cant afford the barefoot trimmers prices (from what i have been told of them) so i have to put one of mine out to share!

Is it true that trimmers come out every 4 weeks? Why?
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Nope, only on certain horses with a real need for it, should trimming be every 4 weeks. A couple of mine havd only been trimmed twice in the last 6 months - they are largely self maintining - the grow what they wear and wear what they grow.

G - if you are in my area, you're more than welcome to come along and meet my barefoot boys and see how they are getting on.

Also - Anni is £35 for a trim, and in my opinion very much worth it. She's the one I'd recommend. Much knowledge and real track record of turning the tough ones around.
 
LucyPriory said:
In the cases on the blog the owners have said something. 'Fred's' owner was told that the feet couldn't be shortened.

The hooning lami owner was told to PTS as there was nothing to be done.

Mostly the people I work with have come to their decision over a long period of time, it is not a step taken lightly. The ones who are less considered in their approach don't last long.

Also one of the owners commented that the photos show the feet in a new light, different to how they perceive them when still attached to the horse....... Which is true enough, the camera gets down and dirty in a way many people don't. I bought a shock and water proof one for obvious reasons :-) Not sure it's poo proof though.

Some owners are also a bit intimidated by their farriers/vets; and there can be no criticism in that; some farriers/vets are intimidating (heck I am sure some people find me intimidating), but if you have been told they are the best and know no different? It is only when the horse is consistently lame despite years of remedial farriery and huge vets bills that eyes start to open a bit and questions then get asked.
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thanks for that
 
Mostly the people I work with have come to their decision over a long period of time, it is not a step taken lightly. The ones who are less considered in their approach don't last long.
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That's right on the nail Lucy

The chances of success are really determined by the owners.
 
chestnuttymare said:
well sounds to me that you have made up your mind and have formed an opinion so not sure why you have asked what people on here think. This has been done to death, all you have to do is do a search and you will get a number of threads on the subject.

I have asked my farrier about this

''A farrier is not neccessarily trained to trim a foot for a barefoot lifestyle (he is trained to trim a foot to take a shoe, very different''

and he refutes this, they are taught to trim a hoof in the correct way for the horse regardless whether it is shod or not. They spend years training, not just the odd weekend. I am sure their training is a bit more comprehensive than an unqualified trimmer.


Brucea, is that the most relevant qualification your good trimmer has, that of a master saddler?
Well my farrier is properly qualified and insured, does a great job and has never struck my horse with a tool!!
Farriers aren't barbarians who wreck horses hooves and batter them. Also, mine was trerribly lame last month, hopping in fact. Called farrier and he put her shoe back on and off she went happy as larry with totally sound. amazing!!
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Agree with this. I'm going to speak my mind now on this subject which will rattle a few cages I'm sure.
Yes some horses can go bare foot and some cant. Iv got a very good friend who works in a equine vet and they are seeing more and more horses with lameness problems and very very badly bruised soles through trying to go bare foot and believing what these under trained so called trimmers are telling them. People are getting brain washed by this fad and people are wreaking their horses feet. 3 local horses under the vets care are now having corrective shoeing by the farrier to try and sort out the trimmers bad work and it wasn't the same trimmer either. I tried my friends horse as he was for sale and quite fancied him and he's bare footed, he moved so wrong I got off him but my friend was use to his way off going, anyway long story short here, he failed vetting lame on all four legs and x rays showed extensive bruising in his soles. It's also in talks to get trimmers licenced with the farrier board and to under go a full training course not just what they do so hopefully this will get underway and knock a few off them in the head but it's not common knowledge yet so can't say no more on that.
Yes there are bad farriers there always will be but people need to open their eyes to the damage they can do to their horses feet if they are shod or barefoot, if I can get a horse to stay barefoot I won't put shoes on but half the time they need them after wearing out a full set off shoes in 3 weeks that's a lot off hoof lost if he didn't have his shoes.
I honestly think as time goes on more people will stick with the well trained farriers just pick a good one.
 
Oh I also would like to add that if your horse is happy bare foot why do you use hoof boots? Proves that the horse ain't copeing to me. If the horse can go all day on any ground and is fine than yep he don't need shoes but if you need to use boots to help him cope than he shouldn't be bare foot
 
brucea said:
That's right on the nail Lucy

The chances of success are really determined by the owners.
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I agree and am a prime example myself. I keep on hoping that my pony prone to laminitis will be able to eat grass, haylage or whatever I feel like giving her. After her latest bout caused by me trying to introduce haylage I now am 100% certain that she knows better than me and I really must listen to her through her symptoms (or lack of them rather lol) despite what any vet, farrier,trimmer, experienced horseperson is telling me to do.

This to me is where the real difference comes in, it's a change of thinking more than anything. It's so inconvenient that I have to soak my ponys hay etc. so in my head I was still trying to find another way round it. Loads of horses eat haylage etc. so why can't she? I could have her shod and feed her anything but what would I be achieveing here in the long term? Eventually she would be sore in shoes, shoes and pads, reverse shoes, heartbar shoes or the next device someone can come up with to 'treat' her problem. The thing is, she isn't sore because she isn't wearing shoes, she is sore at times because I am not giving or providing her with what her body needs. My job is to find out where I'm letting her down not cover it up!

If she were still running up on the moor I wonder if she would be getting bouts of laminitis?
No way am I saying all horses should be out there but I personally have learned that much of the life we provide for domestic horses is alien to what they have evolved to cope with that their systems get overloaded so any move I can make to provide a more natural lifestyle I will take.
Hooves are a great mirror of whole horse health imo.

This is my current thinking after about 10 years of believing horses shouldn't need to wear shoes. :rolleyes:
 
LucyPriory said:
There are good and bad in every trade, so get references.

But for some proper horrors read my blog, especially today's entry

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/update-on-fred-12-weeks- post-deshoeing.html

and

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/which-one-has-laminitis.html

Both of these were long term unsound when shod by an award winning farrier.


For these two it is completely black and white. Lame when shod, sound when bare.
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I'm sorry but I hope that cob HAD laminitis not HAS laminitis else he should not be out running about and wouldn't be able to. Any horse with laminitis will do box rest if he has it bad enough and you will not keep the horse shod within that time. Many Many owners could take a pic off their horse running about like that after a bout off laminitis. Pointless pic to me and proves nothing. As for the other horse if you are perpaired to let your horses feet get like that than you should not own horses!!!! Simple.
 
nokia said:
This is a very intresting subject, and seems to be becoming a more spoken about at our yard than ever before.

I am hoping to get my horse trimmed soon by a barefoot trimmer, my farrier seems to take no time whatsoever to trim my horses feet and they look awfull.

So im going to use a barefoot trimmer , they are double the price of a normal trim but i want my horses feet to be right so im going to give it a go.

What are other peoples thoughts on here
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I could call myself a barefoot trimmer and charge you through the nose (I have never trimmed a horse in my life) however a farrier goes through years of training.. I would find a good farrier and get a trim there
 
I have somehow managed to miss this new craze.

Would somebody be able to tell be the difference between a horse being unshod and a horse being 'barefoot' please? I have read through the thread but can't seem to find an answer. Thanks.
 
amandap said:
I agree and am a prime example myself. I keep on hoping that my pony prone to laminitis will be able to eat grass, haylage or whatever I feel like giving her. After her latest bout caused by me trying to introduce haylage I now am 100% certain that she knows better than me and I really must listen to her through her symptoms (or lack of them rather lol) despite what any vet, farrier,trimmer, experienced horseperson is telling me to do.

This to me is where the real difference comes in, it's a change of thinking more than anything. It's so inconvenient that I have to soak my ponys hay etc. so in my head I was still trying to find another way round it. Loads of horses eat haylage etc. so why can't she? I could have her shod and feed her anything but what would I be achieveing here in the long term? Eventually she would be sore in shoes, shoes and pads, reverse shoes, heartbar shoes or the next device someone can come up with to 'treat' her problem. The thing is, she isn't sore because she isn't wearing shoes, she is sore at times because I am not
giving or providing her with what her body needs. My job is to find out where I'm letting her down not cover it up!

If she were still running up on the moor I wonder if she would be getting bouts of laminitis?
No way am I saying all horses should be out there but I personally have learned that much of the life we provide for domestic horses is alien to what they have evolved to cope with that their systems get overloaded so any move I can make to provide a more natural lifestyle I will take.
Hooves are a great mirror of whole horse health imo.

This is my current thinking after about 10 years of believing horses shouldn't need to wear shoes. :rolleyes:
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native ponies are not designed to live on our pasture and many many owners over feed and let weight become a health risk. Personally I don't think any native should be fed haylage at all as it's far to rich for them and are disigned to live on the moor scrubs. A pony who has had laminitis will get sore feet when the damaged part off the hoof ( streched White line, damaged senitive lammi) reaches the bottom off the hoof. My pony has never had lammi until 2 yrs ago and use to hunt bare foot and never been shod in his life like my others as he didn't need it but did need shoes however when the damaged hoof hit the bottom and made him v sore. He had shoes on for a few months in front because off how sore he was and after the damage was out his foot the shoes came back off. He was shod because it made him comfy and could cope but without them he couldn't walk and I wouldn't be able to tell if he was sore or had lammi coming back. Once farrier gave the all clear the shoes came off and was sound as all the damaged hoof was gone.
His hay is always soaked and all he gets is a lite balancer for vits/mins. Turnout in a greenguard.
They will get lammi if shod or not if they are going 2
 
boss93 said:
I have somehow managed to miss this new craze.

Would somebody be able to tell be the difference between a horse being unshod and a horse being 'barefoot' please? I have read through the thread but can't seem to find an answer. Thanks.
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There isn't one. Except unshod is an accurate description of the situation and 'barefoot' is not :p
 
thatsmygirl said:
Oh I also would like to add that if your horse is happy bare foot why do you use hoof boots? Proves that the horse ain't copeing to me. If the horse can go all day on any ground and is fine than yep he don't need shoes but if you need to use boots to help him cope than he shouldn't be bare foot
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Um, because hoof boots come off at the end of the ride whereas shoes don't. I can't walk comfortably over rough, stony ground without my shoes on, but I don't wear the same ones 24/7! Seems an odd question to me!

In answer to the post earlier about the boundaries between farriers and trimmers, this is a really interesting article:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/21stCenturyFarrier.html

The US seem to be light-years ahead of us....
 
boss93 said:
I have somehow managed to miss this new craze.

Would somebody be able to tell be the difference between a horse being unshod and a horse being 'barefoot' please? I have read through the thread but can't seem to find an answer. Thanks.
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A horse which is bare foot is ment to be able to cope with his normal work load without shoes on. A unshod horse has just got no shoes on.
 
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