can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

jesstickle said:
There isn't one. Except unshod is an accurate description of the situation and 'barefoot' is not :p
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Actually I beg to differ here. Unshod is a term for any horse however trimmed not wearing shoes. A barefoot horse is one who works hard over different surfaces without being shod. :p
 
thatsmygirl said:
A horse which is bare foot is ment to be able to cope with his normal work load without shoes on. A unshod horse has just got no shoes on.
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Personally I would say an unshod horse should be able to cope with his workload too, other wise you're just being cruel leaving his shoes off. But then I think you may have said that already :)
 
soloequestrian said:
Um, because hoof boots come off at the end of the ride whereas shoes don't. I can't walk comfortably over rough, stony ground without my shoes on, but I don't wear the same ones 24/7! Seems an odd question to me!

In answer to the post earlier about the boundaries between farriers and trimmers, this is a really interesting article:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/21stCenturyFarrier.html

The US seem to be light-years ahead of us....
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To me it seems " let the horse be natural, bare foot" but you have to use boots to help them cope? Not coping very well bare foot than. Iv got shod and bare foot horses. The bare foot horses have good feet and go on any ground without boots hence why I won't shoe them but the ones that can't do that are shod as their feet aren't strong enough
 
amandap said:
Actually I beg to differ here. Unshod is a term for any horse however trimmed not wearing shoes. A barefoot horse is one who works hard over different surfaces without being shod. :p
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But semantically they mean exactly the same so how can you argue that?
 
jesstickle said:
Personally I would say an unshod horse should be able to cope with his workload too, other wise you're just being cruel leaving his shoes off. But then I think you may have said that already :)
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I think iv said to much already, could be a interesting night later. Oh well I'm off riding .... On my shod horse that is by a brill farrier :p
 
thatsmygirl said:
I think iv said to much already, could be a interesting night later. Oh well I'm off riding .... On my shod horse that is by a brill farrier :p
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O. You cruel thing you. I shall report you to WHW immediately (although I know for a fact that they use a farrier rather than a trimmer because they use my old farrier)

I already rode my unshod horse for an hour and a half today on the roads and down a stony track. I don't know how he managed it!
 
jesstickle said:
But semantically they mean exactly the same so how can you argue that?
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Semantically I can't! That's what it means to me. :)

I am certainly not trying to convince anyone, there is no point and why should anyone take any notice of what I say!
I have researched and come to my own conclusions which I stand by.

I don't understand why people get so defensive tbh, all we have to do is have faith in own judgement and learning/understanding. :) Be prepared to admit we need to look again. I'm talking of both sides of the argument here btw.

Modified to add. Get down with your cameras and have a good look at your horses feet.
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/pin-ups.html
 
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The "farriers train for four YEARS" thing is irrelevant. Partly because of what people have pointed out that they spend a lot of time learning to bend metal and apply shoes, skills which are not required for barefoot horses.

And secondly because the system of apprenticing a young lad to a Master Craftsman was set up hundreds of years ago. The time of the indenture was not only to learn the skill, but then to work for the Master to repay him for all the time and money that he had to put into training you.

Four years is a historical thing. It does not take four years to learn to be a competent farrier, just as it does not take four years to learn to become a competent trimmer. The requirement to be an apprentice for four years before becoming a farrier is also relatively recent. One of the best farriers I ever used for my horses was completely unqualified and was allowed to practise because he already had decades of experience when the law was implemented requiring future farriers to be qualified.

I don't doubt that there are good welfare reasons for regulating the shoeing and trimming of horses, but the "four years!" argument is not one of them.
 
amandap said:
I don't understand why people get so defensive tbh, all we have to do is have faith in own judgement and learning/understanding. :) Be prepared to admit we need to look again. I'm talking of both sides of the argument here btw.
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I'm not really getting defensive I promise. I'm perfectly happy to accept that a good farrier is better than a bad trimmer, and conversely, that a good trimmer is better than a bad farrier.

I think the problem arises because when anyone asks this question there is always at least one barefoot person who comes along and mentions 'suffering' and other such emotive words. I don't think that helps those of us who have always used the farrier approach bare foot with an open mind. It just puts peoples backs up and makes us think we don't want to be part of the fluffy bunny brigade. It's a real shame but it is what it is.

Like I say, mine is unshod but I would never imply someone who chooses to put shoes on their horse is mistreating them and allowing them to suffer. Even on this thread it has been said (although not by you or Lucy who have been perfectly polite).
 
thatsmygirl said:
To me it seems " let the horse be natural, bare foot" but you have to use boots to help them cope? Not coping very well bare foot than. Iv got shod and bare foot horses. The bare foot horses have good feet and go on any ground without boots hence why I won't shoe them but the ones that can't do that are shod as their feet aren't strong enough
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But if boots are only used to cope when the horse is expected to negotiate challenging terrain, and it is very comfortable for the rest of the time, why would you need to have shoes on the whole time to ensure its comfort?
 
If you look into it and after talking to a newly qualified farrier the other week, they spend more time learning how to trim and the working off the foot than the shoeing bit. In his own words " any old sod can nail on a shoe if they wanted and that's not the hard part" it's the balance and the trim off the foot which is the most important and the most important to get right.
 
thatsmygirl said:
Oh I also would like to add that if your horse is happy bare foot why do you use hoof boots? Proves that the horse ain't copeing to me. If the horse can go all day on any ground and is fine than yep he don't need shoes but if you need to use boots to help him cope than he shouldn't be bare foot
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But why do you think shoes are better than boots? Boots are always preferable as at the end of your ride you take them off and no damage has been done. You can argue this way and that way about shoes but surely no one can argue against the fact that putting a nail into the hoof wall damages it.

All horses can go barefoot - it's just a lot harder for some than others. If a horse is struggling and getting 'bruised' soles then it's the diet that is not working. Fix the diet - and for some horses that would mean permanently dry lotting them - and you fix the feet. It's pretty straight forward.

To answer the original question, of course many farriers are capable of doing a great barefoot trim, the problem isn't usually the trim, it's the diet and management advice that is lacking and the experience of working with hard working, competing barefoot horses. There are plenty of farriers who seem happy to encourage their clients to work their horses barefoot but at the first hint of problems will stick the shoes back on, rather than investigating and fixing the real problem. Or will say barefoot is fine until you start to up the workload. When you have the option of being able to shoe the temptation to go back to it when things get difficult is too easy because by the very nature of being a farrier you must think shoes are okay. For example I have a client who has an IR mare. She was shod all her life and very rarely sound. Got to the point where vet and farrier said there was nothing more they could do. At no point did either vet or farrier tell the owner that this mare should have zero access to grass, despite her having tested positive for IR. The mare was in heart bar shoes when I first met her and crippled. Owner was still sceptical but desperate. Shoes off, mare came sound quite quickly and spent the summer being ridden - something they hadn't been able to do for years. Farrier was baffled by what I as the trimmer was doing differently. Answer - two things, no shoes and no grass! Roll forwards to the recent cold spell. Owner changed hay supply and ended up feeding hay with lots of clover and had to stop soaking hay because of cold weather. The two things combined meant the mare came down with laminitis. Vet immediately said the mare should have heart bar shoes back on or to quote 'she will never come sound again'. Client phoned me - if I'd been a farrier no doubt I would have dashed over and put shoes on. Instead I told her to change the hay back to the old stuff and start soaking it again. Protect and support the feet by padding with nappies. Less than a week later the mare was 100% sound again. The vet came back out - same vet who'd said the mare would never be sound unless she was shod - and professed herself 'surprised' to see the mare doing so well. It would have been a massive and unnecessary shame to have put shoes back on this mare when the problem was with what she was eating not with her feet per se.

As for the four years training I know plenty of farriers who can't be bothered to do trims and send their apprentices out to do the trimming cases for them. How much training do apprentices have to do before being allowed to trim hooves? Does anyone know?
 
LucyPriory said:
Many of the barefoot trimmers are farriers who have retrained. The AANHCP even has a vet who has done the training. Italian and drop dead gorgeous by the way.
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One has just finished his training with AANHCP, he is Spanish and a vet :-) Maybe we are not talking about the same person! ;-) (probably not if the one you are talking about is Italian!)
 
jesstickle said:
There isn't one. Except unshod is an accurate description of the situation and 'barefoot' is not :p
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Oh i see... not by any chance a new money spinning idea then? Or is this just me being super cynical?!

In any case, in answer to the question, surely you could get good or bad of either proffessional, so just go with somebody well recommended and who you would trust near your horses feet. Personally though, the thought of using someone with just 14 days worth of training would worry me slightly...
 
Randonneuse said:
One has just finished his training with AANHCP, he is Spanish and a vet :-) Maybe we are not talking about the same person! ;-) (probably not if the one you are talking about is Italian!)
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Heck forget the geography - I'm not fussy - gorgeous of any nationality will do :-)

I do so hope the toy boy never gets to read this! :-)
 
Well according to this post I must be completely incompetent and so must the nutritionist (the leading one for Saracen Horse feeds) as we cannot find anything to help my horse's feet. He's a Welsh D x TB, with TB like thin soles and hoof wall, my farrier has to shoe him with extra thickness shoes every 5 weeks due to way he wears his feet (weaving and roadwork). He is intolerant to Alfa A and most ceral based feeds as well as tending to be overweight. So he is fed a balancer, TopKoat and Hifi and this works well for him weight wise but has made no change to his feet. They are good quality just thin in structure. Now I cannot stop him weaving when he is in and he is on rubber, I dread to think what would happen if he did not have shoes on. Plus what I said about my vet saying he should not go unshod in front.
I actually think I am reasonably experienced, which is a good thing given my job but maybe I am not - I am really so cruel to shoe my horse?
 
I good farrier is better than a trimmer IMO.

Having seen some of the disasters on both sides of the net I might be licky in that my farrier has made a fantastic job of Kias bare hinds. Hard as rocks and no flaking or cracking :)
 
To me it seems " let the horse be natural, bare foot" but you have to use boots to help them cope? Not coping very well bare foot than. Iv got shod and bare foot horses. The bare foot horses have good feet and go on any ground without boots hence why I won't shoe them but the ones that can't do that are shod as their feet aren't strong enough
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If a horse is not coping very well barefoot then there is a reason for it - pluggin shoes on to that hoof is only going to mask it - the problem that caused the sensitivity in the first place is still there!

Better to work out why they are sensitive in the first place - often is is as simple as mineral balance and cutting down sugars.
 
LucyPriory said:
Heck forget the geography - I'm not fussy - gorgeous of any nationality will do :-)

I do so hope the toy boy never gets to read this! :-)
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Ahah ;-) Caroline (AANHCP) came to trimm my ponys feet last week and told me about the Spanish BFT/vet ... she didn't mention him being gorgeous though! Will have to ask her next time she comes! (may as well meet him next time he comes to the UK!!!)
:-)
 
Laafet said:
Well according to this post I must be completely incompetent and so must the nutritionist (the leading one for Saracen Horse feeds) as we cannot find anything to help my horse's feet. He's a Welsh D x TB, with TB like thin soles and hoof wall, my farrier has to shoe him with extra thickness shoes every 5 weeks due to way he wears his feet (weaving and roadwork). He is intolerant to Alfa A and most ceral based feeds as well as tending to be overweight. So he is fed a balancer, TopKoat and Hifi and this works well for him weight wise but has made no change to his feet. They are good quality just thin in structure. Now I cannot stop him weaving when he is in and he is on rubber, I dread to think what would happen if he did not have shoes on. Plus what I said about my vet saying he should not go unshod in front.
I actually think I am reasonably experienced, which is a good thing given my job but maybe I am not - I am really so cruel to shoe my horse?
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In your post you have probably put your finger on the problem. Intolerant of cereal based feeds, alfa a (so probably alfalfa) and is over weight.

hifi original contains three ingredients which can cause problems for this type of horse.

Alfalfa, Cereal straw, Molasses, Mould Inhibitor.

The lite version is just as bad and the molasses free one is based on alfalfa.

Many (not all) shod horses have thin soles.
 
My boy has always been barefoot and until about 6 months ago trimmed by a very competent/popular/experienced farrier.

I reluctantly switched to a trimmer after I phoned my farrier as my boy needed trimming - he had a lot of flare and stretching to white line area and I had concerns about LGL and farrier said that he didn't (without seeing him) . I'm really glad we switched as his feet look fab and his movement is much improved.

There's good and bad in both though.
 
brucea said:
If a horse is not coping very well barefoot then there is a reason for it - pluggin shoes on to that hoof is only going to mask it - the problem that caused the sensitivity in the first place is still there!

Better to work out why they are sensitive in the first place - often is is as simple as mineral balance and cutting down sugars.
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All my horses are on a low sugar/starch diet. All on topspec balancers in hi fi molasse free with speedi beet if needed. All have no cracks,chips nothing in their feet. Just some aren't cut out to be bare foot and can't cope with it. Anybody else seen horses muscals build up wrong while they try to go bare foot? To ease the pressure a bit and not move right?
I'm sure some horses cope really well bare foot and iv got some but for others it just won't work and for those I won't force it upon them
 
Randonneuse said:
Ahah ;-) Caroline (AANHCP) came to trimm my ponys feet last week and told me about the Spanish BFT/vet ... she didn't mention him being gorgeous though! Will have to ask her next time she comes! (may as well meet him next time he comes to the UK!!!)
:-)
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I'm first in the queue! :-)
 
fizzer said:
Whats pees me off is that there are some people that do not believe in having shoes at their animals cost.

There is a lady near me that on no terms will consider shoes , her horses are always lame, have abcesses and she trims them constantly. She has been advised by a few professionals ie vet, chiropractor that maybe it does not suit her horses but because she would rather stick to HER beliefs, her poor horses are suffering.
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So agree!! It should be what is best for the horse, not what the owner believes at the detriment of their animal.
 
I seriously question mould inhibitors and antifungals. I think they are possibly not a good thing for the very sensitive ones.

Many (not all) shod horses have thin soles.
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And then we slap shoes on which change the sole from being in a supporting role to being in a bridging role. Can that be a good idea?

peripheral%20loading.jpg


Does this seem like a brilliant idea??? Maybe this is much better?

even%20loading.jpg


The more I think about it, the less sense peripheral loading makes.
 
fizzer said:
Whats pees me off is that there are some people that do not believe in having shoes at their animals cost.

There is a lady near me that on no terms will consider shoes , her horses are always lame, have abcesses and she trims them constantly. She has been advised by a few professionals ie vet, chiropractor that maybe it does not suit her horses but because she would rather stick to HER beliefs, her poor horses are suffering.
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Granted, but to be fair, there are equally an awful lot of lame shod horses out there with all the said symptoms, whos owners are just as hard nosed about not going barefoot because..........
 
jesstickle said:
I'm not really getting defensive I promise. I'm perfectly happy to accept that a good farrier is better than a bad trimmer, and conversely, that a good trimmer is better than a bad farrier.
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:D :D
My defensive comment was supposed to be a general comment,not aimed at you. I should have made that clearer.
 
amandap said:
:D :D
My defensive comment was supposed to be a general comment,not aimed at you. I should have made that clearer.
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Thought I'd better say. For some reason everything I've said the last couple of days on here has come out completely wrong! I've lost my diplomacy knack. I'll probably get infracted soon and everything!
 
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