can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

Lets get back to the horse in question. This is unusual and doesn,t follow normal rules, it has a fundamentaly strong hoof, which has been its saving and alowed an insight into its gait and the forces placed on it. To a point this hoof is growing evenly, however the lateral is landing hard and wearing quicker than the medial. but i will come back to that as each bit has its own cause and consequence. The lateral is wearing and at some point has worn quicker than it grows, as it wears the surface area shortens, as does any reducing circumference, the area left works harder and the friction is increased over a more concentrated area so it gets shorter.
The muscle wastage on the forearm and the wearing of the hoof sugests to me the horse is placing the leg towards the centre of mass.
there is more if you like :D
 
As the horse lands on the lateral its centre of mass is slightly to the left of centre, That is how it is carrying its weight at the min. then as it moves through the loaded phase of the stride the mass moves right as the hoof equals its load onto the medial side of the capsule.
I will be back got to taxi a child.:D
 
Possibly a stupid question... but I can't see a forearm in the pics? Am I looking at the wrong link?

Is there any footage of this horse moving?
 
A lot of folk seem to get wound up about how much training a farrier does or a trimmer does, as if it means something. 6 years of the wrong or irrelavant training means nothing. Half a day of the right training means a lot.

These pious types who state 'Only a qualified, registered farrier, will I allow near my horse' are a joke as far as I'm concerned.

With everything we now know about feet and horses, why would any sane person allow anyone, qualified, registered, trained or what to hammer nails in their horses foot.
 
As the medial side loads and the mass moves right the excess growth (it hasnt been wearing) on the medial side of the capsule deforms and bends, for those who dont think that the capsule is elastic remember it deforms under load and returns when released in the normal run of events. Check out Hooke's Law of Elasticity and Young's Modulous of Elasticity. As for future failure the wall is yielding at the min at the distal border of P3, not the laminal Inter digitation, if the force moves to that region then you better reduce the sugar.
 
Forgive me this is a crap pic but im not an artist. :D
img053.jpg
 
A Guilding said:
for those who dont think that the capsule is elastic remember it deforms under load and returns when released in the normal run of events. Check out Hooke's Law of Elasticity and Young's Modulous of Elasticity.
Click to expand...
Yes, I was wrong there as I was thinking of the components not the action of the capsule as a whole. Somehow elastic doesn't fit exactly for me but it definitely is part of the action when I think about the capsule mechanism.
 
A Guilding I get everything that you are saying and I am confused about when we should choose to disagree with the horse and when we should not.

As the owner of a spavined horse I saw his hind feet change week by week, mostly depending on whether the weather was dry and warm and he was sounder, or whether the weather was wet and cold and he was lamer. If I followed what you seem to be suggesting, then I should have corrected his imbalance to prevent it "training him", as it were to move wrongly in a bad feedback loop. But the fact was that when I did correct it he was more uncomfortable and he very swiftly put it back the way he wanted it.

So while I can completely see that you are saying that the foot may actually be preventing the incorrect movement from the shoulder injury from recovery I have a few problems:

- my own spavined horse came sound and moved normally again once the hocks fused. The wonky feet did not leave him permanently lame or moving wrongly and they came straight when he was sound.

- my wonky hunter who is the most one-sided horse that I have ever broken to ride has flanges on his feet on one diagonal that come and go depending on how much schooling I have done to get him to move straight. They do not appear to cause him to move bent, (they had been removed by his farrier when I bought him and were not at that time responsible for a one-sidedness that feels strongly as if it originates in his back) and they reduce when his body is straighter.

- my young dressage horse would be putting uneven forces on his front leg joints if he were not allowed to grow a slightly windswept foot. When shod straight, he had an action where his knees came outwards with every stride. It was quite fetching, but very incorrect :)

- Nic at Rockley, who I know well, has a number of horses which were unsound when shod straight in shoes, to the point of being given to her for free, which are sound with their hoof extensions and are less sound if she trims them off.

The interim conclusion that I have come to is that I would probably try, cautiously, to reduce an extension, but that if the horse were less sound when I did, I would allow it to stay. For horses which are unsound in shoes and unsound without extensions but sound with them, it's a bit of a no-brainer for me.
 
Last edited:
cptrayes said:
A Guilding I get everything that you are saying and I am confused about when we should choose to disagree with the horse and when we should not.

As the owner of a spavined horse I saw his hind feet change week by week, mostly depending on whether the weather was dry and warm and he was sounder, or whether the weather was wet and cold and he was lamer. If I followed what you seem to be suggesting, then I should have corrected his imbalance to prevent it "training him", as it were to move wrongly in a bad feedback loop. But the fact was that when I did correct it he was more uncomfortable and he very swiftly put it back the way he wanted it.

So while I can completely see that you are saying that the foot may actually be preventing the incorrect movement from the shoulder injury from recovery I have a few problems:

- my own spavined horse came sound and moved normally again once the hocks fused. The wonky feet did not leave him permanently lame or moving wrongly.

- my wonky hunter who is the most one-sided horse that I have ever broken to ride has flanges on his feet on one diagonal that come and go depending on how much schooling I have done to get him to move straight. They do not appear to cause him to move bent, (they had been removed by his farrier when I bought him and were not at that time responsible for a one-sidedness that feels strongly as if it originates in his back) and they reduce when his body is straighter.

- my dressage horse would be putting uneven forces on his front leg if he were not allowed to grow a slightly windswept foot. When shod straight, he had an action where his knees came outwards with every stride. It was quite fetching, but very incorrect :)

- Nic at Rockley, who I know well, has a number of horses which were unsound when shod straight in shoes, to the point of being given to her for free, which are sound with their hoof extensions and are less sound if she trims them off.

The interim conclusion that I have come to is that I would probably try, cautiously, to reduce an extension, but that if the horse were less sound when I did, I would allow it to stay. For horses which are unsound in shoes and unsound without extensions but sound with them, it's a bit of a no-brainer for me.
Click to expand...

Spavin is very different to the original horse we have just been talking about. The Spavin usually occurs in the medial tarsal and tarso meta tarsal joints if I remember correctly, forgive me if I am not exactly correct on that. On the inside for ease To avoid the pain the horse moves its hoof towards the mid center line, this will flare the outside of the hoof compress the lateral heel and cause a coronary shunt on the medial toe and turn out the foot, stop me if this doesnt sound like your horse. None of the capsule distortion match the discomfort of the joint pain Or the medial distal tarsal lig, Once the joint has fused, horse can walk normally and capsule can auto correct as the forces return to what he had before.
The origanal horse has a wing that has been aquired and is of no benifit to him, migth alter his ability to turn right, get it off :D
For give me if the above anatomy isnt correct I cant be bothered to look it up .
 
nokia said:
This is a very intresting subject, and seems to be becoming a more spoken about at our yard than ever before.

I am hoping to get my horse trimmed soon by a barefoot trimmer, my farrier seems to take no time whatsoever to trim my horses feet and they look awfull.

So im going to use a barefoot trimmer , they are double the price of a normal trim but i want my horses feet to be right so im going to give it a go.

What are other peoples thoughts on here
Click to expand...

I wonder if you thought you got an answer in the end? Ongoing debate....a long one
 
I am in between camps right now. Always had farriers and the best in the area recommended by owners/vets/trainers.
However my new boy and all the posts on here has made me look at things in greater detail. Right now he is an odd one. On box rest after PSD surgery he has heart bars on hinds and is unshod on front. I won't go into my reasons as its irrelevant for this post.

I attend a LOT of BS events with work and have started looking at 100's of horses feet. I must say I cant believe what I see and what's more I can't believe that these horses are sound (some aren't) What I have found most common is 3/4 to 1 inch heels with very long toes. Next is low slung heels with long toes. Only once or twice have I seen what I thought was a near perfect foot. I have looked at the same horse several weeks apart and never noticed much difference even when obviously recently shod.
I mentioned this to a vet friend and he said 'how many of the BS people keep their horses for long? Especially the ones I see (mid week professionals who sell on)

The very best 2 I have seen were both bare foot

Obviously I am just an average owner who is educating myself and taking a VERY close look

I am now looking into a farrier who is also a BFT (thanks to a fellow HH'er)
 
What I always find interesting when these posts come up is that the farrier is being slated because the horse has under-run heels, navicular, laminitis etc etc, and how much better the barefoot trimmer will trim your horses hooves. Yet you cannot compare the farrier that has shod a horse badly with a trimmer that doesnt shoe......You can compare like to like........the farrier that trims to the trimmer, do you see?
If the horse is crippled shod, then yes, you take its shoes off and work to sort the problem, but the farrier in that case is a bad farrier. A good farrier will help whether your horse is shod or barefoot.
If the one profession (with years of training) is doing a bad job shoeing, then yes he'll likely do a bad job trimming, but a decent farrier can do a good job of both.
To compare all farriers to all trimmers, just doesnt work, you wouldnt compare all MOT centres to a tyre fitting centre, saying that because the MOT centre fitted your tyres badly, all MOT centres are not as good as tyre fitting centres and we shouldnt use MOT centres for fitting our tyres. No we would say that one centre is no good, because we know there are always the odd bad apple.
I hope that kind of made sense;)
 
These are only my personal experiences.My knowledge of shoeing and trimming are frankly poor.I rely on the farrier/trimmer to know their job.Enter the spooky one.Came to me bare foot.Nice chapand not at all nasty but with a distinct sense of humour.I was persuaded to try bare foot trimmer.She was quite happy to discuss her training etc. Watched horse move and took before and after pics.Did a perfectly decent job as far as I can tell but couldn't handle horse at all.Goodness only knows what will happen if she meets a genuinely difficult horse.Shortly after that the spooky one went and the Newbie arrived.I changed yards.Newbie had shoes on front only.Tried a new bare foot trimmer whose horse management skills were far better.Horse went very sore and did not seem to like barefoot.He also dropped markedly on his right quarter when moving.He came like this having passed a 5 star vetting.Was perfectly sound actually but had a horrendous back due to poorly fitting saddle, harsh and incorrect schooling and he had learned to twist his right hoof in slightly to balance.(Know this as farrier told me!).Bare foot trimmer panicked.He was fine so long as everything was fine, any deviations and he panicked.Back to a new (and as far as I can tell) very good farrier.I know that some farriers are dreadful and no doubt some trimmers are and vice versa.Just my experiences.
 
patchwork puzzle said:
What I always find interesting when these posts come up is that the farrier is being slated because the horse has under-run heels, navicular, laminitis etc etc, and how much better the barefoot trimmer will trim your horses hooves. Yet you cannot compare the farrier that has shod a horse badly with a trimmer that doesnt shoe......You can compare like to like........the farrier that trims to the trimmer, do you see?
If the horse is crippled shod, then yes, you take its shoes off and work to sort the problem, but the farrier in that case is a bad farrier. A good farrier will help whether your horse is shod or barefoot.
If the one profession (with years of training) is doing a bad job shoeing, then yes he'll likely do a bad job trimming, but a decent farrier can do a good job of both.
To compare all farriers to all trimmers, just doesnt work, you wouldnt compare all MOT centres to a tyre fitting centre, saying that because the MOT centre fitted your tyres badly, all MOT centres are not as good as tyre fitting centres and we shouldnt use MOT centres for fitting our tyres. No we would say that one centre is no good, because we know there are always the odd bad apple.
I hope that kind of made sense;)
Click to expand...

I have never had problems with shoes on horses and am all for au naturelle etc BUT now my old boy is not ridden I had shoes removed last year(spring). The shoe holes once grown out much improved hoof but during the summer hard ground etc he took chunks out on flint. I know if I was riding him on this flint he would have destroyed his hoof(so not just road work the reason on here that the barefooter camp say horses get shoed for?) Probably if he was ridden on soft grassy fields he wouldnt need shoes. Now since the winter the ground is softer and his hooves are remarkably lovely and round with odd chip but much more perfect. The only thing is he is needed to have his feet trimmed just as regularly as when he was shoed. It is saving me lots of money. The same farrier that has always shoed him trims him and my farrier does look at the whole animal ie I have a good doer and he will tell me if he is far too fat etc and to get him off the grass or watch him/restrict etc etc. I did have a pony with touch laminitis and the farrier put some bigger shoes on to make the pony spread his weight etc to move around and it worked with off grass and hay only. So I have found my farrier and all the farriers over 30+ years all good as gold. I never questioned or demanded that I wanted XYZ just let them do their job and if all was ok or if I was worried was this ok etc etc?
 
indie999 said:
. I know if I was riding him on this flint he would have destroyed his hoof(so not just road work the reason on here that the barefooter camp say horses get shoed for?) ?
Click to expand...


The barefoot camp do not usually say shoeing is necessary for roadwork, roadwork is great for bare hooves. All my paths and stubble fields are filled with flints, but my TB and haflinger do not lose chunks of hoof when ridden on it, in fact they rarely chip, but getting the diet right so they are not footy on it is the tricky thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top