can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

jesstickle said:
Well he's a horse so he wouldn't 'rather' either of the options. He has no sense of what tomorrow means or of his own mortality.

I'm sure he is very happy. I wasn't trying to cast aspersions. The option of dry lotting horses, with enough space to have a hoon and to have a few friends out with them is not available to the vast majority of people. So saying no grass for most horses in this country means living in isolation on a tiny patch of earth at best. That is no life IMHO.
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I followed CPTrayes' rehab of said horse. He really was a day away from being PTS. Everyone had given up on him. CPTrayes worked so hard and horse came sound. Even fellow barefooters were doubtful at the time, but she did it.

I know CPTrayes found someone nearby with the right facilities to enjoy him and give him a great life.

It was one of those stories that had a great happy ending!

I agree that many owners could not provide the facilities to keep horses like this sound barefoot. I certainly couldn't on my yard. I could never leave a horse alone on a small patch of dirt all day. Shoes are often the only option - at least during spring and summer.

The horse in question just couldn't manage in shoes anymore either and the only option was PTS - but CPTrayes managed to see another way.

Maybe that's not so bad? I know she received no money for the whole thing either.
 
Oberon said:
I followed CPTrayes' rehab of said horse. He really was a day away from being PTS. Everyone had given up on him. CPTrayes worked so hard and horse came sound. Even fellow barefooters were doubtful at the time, but she did it.

I know CPTrayes found someone nearby with the right facilities to enjoy him and give him a great life.

It was one of those stories that had a great happy ending!

I agree that many owners could not provide the facilities to keep horses like this sound barefoot. I certainly couldn't on my yard. I could never leave a horse alone on a small patch of dirt all day. Shoes are often the only option - at least during spring and summer.

The horse in question just couldn't manage in shoes anymore either and the only option was PTS - but CPTrayes managed to see another way.

Maybe that's not so bad? I know she received no money for the whole thing either.
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No, that's not bad at all. That's wonderful. I am not anti bare foot at all. I am just anti being told it is the answer to all the worlds problems and that I am cruel for even thinking of shoeing my horse.

To all involved in this story I would like to offer a genuine, heartfelt well done.
 
Imo farrier do a better job every time. I think bare foot trimming is just a fad and tbh don't think they have been around enough etc. to really trust them etc.
 
You lot! Made me go off and delve through old pics!

I've gone back and looked through my annual x rays of my ISH since the year he had his shoes off. There are substantial changes in the hoof, but as the baseboard is very faint in a couple of the x rays I'm not going to post them (and they show the vet's name and that's not fair) - but going by the heads of the screws I think there has been a thickening of the sole from 12/14 mm in 2008 to 25mm in 2010 xrays.
 
it is not a simple equation

flat feet does not automatically = bruised soles and abscesses

I see lots of flat footed horses that don't have either bruises or abscesses and they mostly work very hard on all sorts of rough and hard surfaces.
 
I'm off to bed so this is my last say.
I have bare foot horses who live with my shod horses and on the same diet, I leave them bare footed because they cope with the work and have no problems and need no boots. However if I had a horse who I had to cut out grazing and boot up to ride and need dry areas etc I would shoe them as I feel they wouldn't have natually strong feet like mine.

A girl I know has her horse fed on a crap diet off mollichaff extra , sugar beet and mix but yet her horse copes perfectly well with bare foot. Why if diet is so important?

So maybe if a horse is ment to be bare foot it will cope what ever his diet and work and why should we cut out his grazeing etc to try and make him what we want.

All I know is my shod horses are shod for a reason and are sound and happy and my bare foot horses have as much turn out as the shod horses and that's the way it should be.
 
thatsmygirl said:
I'm off to bed so this is my last say.
I have bare foot horses who live with my shod horses and on the same diet, I leave them bare footed because they cope with the work and have no problems and need no boots. However if I had a horse who I had to cut out grazing and boot up to ride and need dry areas etc I would shoe them as I feel they wouldn't have natually strong feet like mine.

A girl I know has her horse fed on a crap diet off mollichaff extra , sugar beet and mix but yet her horse copes perfectly well with bare foot. Why if diet is so important?

So maybe if a horse is ment to be bare foot it will cope what ever his diet and work and why should we cut out his grazeing etc to try and make him what we want.

All I know is my shod horses are shod for a reason and are sound and happy and my bare foot horses have as much turn out as the shod horses and that's the way it should be.
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This is what I've been trying to say and failing miserably to.
 
Have not had chance to read the dozens of replies yet but my rising 4 year old has had 3 different 'farriers' and the first 1 did a reasonable jobon 2 occasions from when I had him at 6months but then unfortunately was off work for about 9 months so I chose another farrier of whom 1/3 of the people on my yard used on a regular basis, he's old so I presumed better as had more experience- thought he'd do a better job than the younger more recently qualified ones.

As every other person on here I'm sure, I wanted the best for my boy and thought this was it. About 12-16 months later it was getting to the stage where trimmings were every 4-5 weeks- down from 8, this was because my boys feet were starting to split more and more. Farrier said this was normal and only down to my horse. When he said I'd probably need shoes on him (a 2 year old!) and a check up with the vet that wasn't too impressed that was the final straw!

I showed his feet to original farrier and another 'younger' (well 27!) one asking what they'd do next. The younger one gave me more hope in his answer and explained everything really well so he started trimming my boy.

That was about 18 months ago and his feet are so much better. I nearly fell over the first time he did them as he worked from every angle on each hoof and took the time the other one took on all 4 just to do 1! There are splits on the outer side of both back hooves that come from the corenet band which is down to them not being balanced properly as they were growing (he would have been hitting the floor in the wrong area) but they're loads better- vet was impressed too.

Have since found out this farrier isn't qualified and many others have stopped using him too- a friends 2 horses both developed splints in a similar area on the leg of the front shod foot that looked an irregular shape. Anothers horse was went progressively lame. The people who still use him are aware he has no qualifications but continue to use him....?

I'm angry with myself as all I wanted was the best for my boy.

I have never seen or used a barefoot trimmer so don't feel its fair to comment- and even 1 of them does not represent the quality of the others as with anyone in a profession.
 
re the diet thing and some bare others not.

Horses are individual, just like people. I can eat chocolate, my brothers and sister can not, they get migraines.

I can not eat some processed products, I get IBS, but they don't.

My other half can drink high fat milk, I can't it makes me chesty.

One good friend eats a lot of junk, it shows, another seems fine.

Ditto the dogs, GSD are often prone to digestive upsets (apparently) but mine can eat anything and is fine, including rotting carcasses, custard and all sorts of rubbish.

But my lab\GSD cross was very ill if she ate anything with wheat in it.

So yes diet is critical, but it is also individual.
 
thatsmygirl said:
I'm off to bed so this is my last say.
I have bare foot horses who live with my shod horses and on the same diet, I leave them bare footed because they cope with the work and have no problems and need no boots. However if I had a horse who I had to cut out grazing and boot up to ride and need dry areas etc I would shoe them as I feel they wouldn't have natually strong feet like mine.

A girl I know has her horse fed on a crap diet off mollichaff extra , sugar beet and mix but yet her horse copes perfectly well with bare foot. Why if diet is so important?

So maybe if a horse is ment to be bare foot it will cope what ever his diet and work and why should we cut out his grazeing etc to try and make him what we want.

All I know is my shod horses are shod for a reason and are sound and happy and my bare foot horses have as much turn out as the shod horses and that's the way it should be.
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Why can some humans eat burgers/chips/cakes and never get fat and other humans eat exactly the same diet and become horribly obese?
 
Barefoot Gurus make feeding mystical, hence giving long consultations to justify exorbitant fees. Stop rugging and over feeding, turn 'em out and work them. Not rocket science.
 
LucyPriory said:
Contact Caroline Anderson of www.hooftrimmers.co.uk
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Thatsmygirl, Lucy is right.
Contact Caroline, she trimms my ponys feet, does a very good job, is lovely and you can ask her whatever you want to know she will always try to answer your questions! :-)
I've been using her since I brought him from France in May 2010 and haven't had any problems! :-)
Pony goes on all sorts of grounds and doesn't care is there are stones, or if it is road, tracks etc! (he has been barefoot for now a bit more than 4 years but wasn't ridden a lot in France as I have been living in the UK since I had his shoes taken off!)
 
horserider said:
Barefoot Gurus make feeding mystical, hence giving long consultations to justify exorbitant fees. Stop rugging and over feeding, turn 'em out and work them. Not rocket science.
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Quite the reverse actually, we make it UNmystical -

give the horse the diet he was evolved to eat - scrub with plenty of variety, not lush green grass, especially not of one species originally grown for dairy cows.

and the environment he was evolved to live in -

mostly dry with lots of movement.

If you can't do that, get as close to it as you can.

Simples!
 
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To echo the "whole health, not just the feet" thing being said above, the rehab I took on came to me as a manic wood-eater (rafters above his head if they were the only wood available; he savaged a saddle when no wood was around) and an extremely severe sweet itch sufferer who had to be rugged from nose to tail even when inside a stable or he rubbed himself raw and has the scars to prove it. He also had odd panic attacks, for example when in his stable and a farm machine was working in a next door field.

Removed from grass, he almost immediately stopped wood chewing. He never suffered from sweet itch though stabled close to water. I had a 20 ton lorry deliver an arena topup whose driver had to pull in his wing mirrors to scrape past his stable door and he never batted an eyelid.

Now would you tell me that he would be better off on grass, even if his feet would allow it? He was clearly a horse who was sick from the inside out, mentally and physically.

By the way, I have NOTHING at stake in promoting barefoot other than the welfare of the horse. I am not a paid trimmer. Heaven help us, I even taught myself from a book, though I would recommend courses now that better ones are available.
 
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Jeez, you guys are militant! I give up
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Sorry we are coming across like that:(

What has happened really is that those of us who are heavilly into this barefoot thing are really questioning "accepted wisdom" and "traditional approaches" and once you've questioned one thing it is easier to question the next...and so on

But we are finding that it is not as simple as "just do this" and there are a lot of individual variations - just as there are in people. And different horses in the same environment and on the same feed will react in different ways.

So it is really the case that we have to try to work out what is going on with THIS horse in THIS environment.

But what we won't do is accept that "just put shoes on" answer - because if the horse is lame barefoot they are compromised in shoes as well and ethically it is best to understand the underlying causes and factors affecting that horse, not just mask it.

We won't "just put shoes on" beucase even many experienced farriers are now openly acknowledging that shoes are harmful for the horse in the long term and inhibit the natural development of the equine hoof.

But similarly if shoes are the only thing that will make the horse pain free then it is unethical not to use them. I would, but I've never got to that point yet. I was considering it with one of mine, but a change of land and pasture made a world of difference.

P.S. Oberon "Barefoot Taliban" tsk...tsk...I can't think where you picked up such an unsavoury phrase ;)
 
It seemsto me that with all the alternative views that are aired on these threads, the mistake that so many of us make, is that we get too specific about individual horses that we own. For example, my horse eats lots of sugar laden products with no ill effects therefore sugar is ok.

The fact is that horses don't eat lots of sugar naturally but it has become the norm for feed companies to lace their products with sugar to make them palatable, so it has become the modern accepted thing for us all to go along with it.

The fact that scientific research into the way we keep our horses is on going and the reasons we do what we do are sometimes challenged, this in turn invites debate where the challenges have to be justified.

Horses were at the time shoeing started in about 600 AD, were used for military purposes in the main. Oxen were the beast of burden. At this time when armour was the norm, when knights and their mounts were encased in steel, it was a small step to put shoes on their feet. The reasons for this vary between to make them more lethal to infantry to protect their feet in damp urine soaked castle stables. Personslly, as cavalry were still being used in Europe in the second world war I tend to favour the shoes as weapons option.

I would guess that the effects of shoeing on horses feet was not subjected to any sort of meaningful research, and horses would have lead a fairly short life with a violent end, so any lasting damage to their feet would of been of little interest.

So here we are some 1400 years late still shoeing horses, although the reasons for it have been amended. surely we have now become so well informed about the structure and workings of the horses hooves that the detrimental effects are well documented and researched. The fact that some horses cope with shoes is not a justification for shoeing. Given the accepted level of lameness and unsoundness amongst our shod horses cries out for change. It may well be that some horses cope well with being shod, but surely we are now in a position to feed properly and care for their feet properly, and not go down the road of my horse cope so all is well.
 
jesstickle said:
Jeez, you guys are militant! I give up :)
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Me too, I'm out.
But for the record, I'm very pro keeping mine, when possible, unshod. Currently working with a 4 year old that had shoes on at 3, to stay au natural as to shoe her lovely feet is a crime.
Just can't be doing with extremists. The parellites of the hoof world.
 
AndySpooner said:
It seemsto me that with all the alternative views that are aired on these threads, the mistake that so many of us make, is that we get too specific about individual horses that we own. For example, my horse eats lots of sugar laden products with no ill effects therefore sugar is ok.

The fact is that horses don't eat lots of sugar naturally but it has become the norm for feed companies to lace their products with sugar to make them palatable, so it has become the modern accepted thing for us all to go along with it.

The fact that scientific research into the way we keep our horses is on going and the reasons we do what we do are sometimes challenged, this in turn invites debate where the challenges have to be justified.

Horses were at the time shoeing started in about 600 AD, were used for military purposes in the main. Oxen were the beast of burden. At this time when armour was the norm, when knights and their mounts were encased in steel, it was a small step to put shoes on their feet. The reasons for this vary between to make them more lethal to infantry to protect their feet in damp urine soaked castle stables. Personslly, as cavalry were still being used in Europe in the second world war I tend to favour the shoes as weapons option.

I would guess that the effects of shoeing on horses feet was not subjected to any sort of meaningful research, and horses would have lead a fairly short life with a violent end, so any lasting damage to their feet would of been of little interest.

So here we are some 1400 years late still shoeing horses, although the reasons for it have been amended. surely we have now become so well informed about the structure and workings of the horses hooves that the detrimental effects are well documented and researched. The fact that some horses cope with shoes is not a justification for shoeing. Given the accepted level of lameness and unsoundness amongst our shod horses cries out for change. It may well be that some horses cope well with being shod, but surely we are now in a position to feed properly and care for their feet properly, and not go down the road of my horse cope so all is well.
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Great post!

Horses used to be routinely fired for tendon injuries - fortunately this has pretty much disappeared now but I remember a time when people speaking out against firing were roundly dismissed as not having a clue what they were talking about.
 
each to there own in my oppinion, if you can find a good barefoot trimmer and thats your prefrance then use them.
personaly someone that has no formal qualifications and could well have just picked up a rasp and decided to trim has no place trimming my horses feet.
i think its increadibly cheeky that they have the nerve to charge twice as much as a qualified farrier as well as i cant see or understand how you are getting more for your money.

but as i said each to there own.
 
horserider said:
Me too, I'm out.
But for the record, I'm very pro keeping mine, when possible, unshod. Currently working with a 4 year old that had shoes on at 3, to stay au natural as to shoe her lovely feet is a crime.
Just can't be doing with extremists. The parellites of the hoof world.
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I haven't seen any of the pro barefooters calling names or being aggressive. I am not sure it is justified or fair to come out insults like militants or comparing to parelli fanatics.

I thought we were having a balanced debate. Getting huffy and name calling is bad form really.
 
Oberon said:
I haven't seen any of the pro barefooters calling names or being aggressive. I am not sure it is justified or fair to come out insults like militants or comparing to parelli fanatics.

I thought we were having a balanced debate. Getting huffy and name calling is bad form really.
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go back and look at brucea's original post if you want to know what put my back up to begin with.
 
brucea said:
And then we slap shoes on which change the sole from being in a supporting role to being in a bridging role. Can that be a good idea?

peripheral%20loading.jpg


Does this seem like a brilliant idea??? Maybe this is much better?

even%20loading.jpg


The more I think about it, the less sense peripheral loading makes.
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Diagrams like this do make me laugh! Showing the shod foot on a hard surface, yet the unshod foot on a soft giving surface. It is not exactly comparing like with like, is it!:rolleyes:
 
jesstickle said:
go back and look at brucea's original post if you want to know what put my back up to begin with.
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Tbh I'm not concerned with what's got your back up. If Brucea upset you then it's between you and him. Please don't call the rest of us names because of it. Being marginalised gets my back up.
 
LucyPriory said:
Hotty Italian not surprisingly has stayed in Italy, but we might wheel him over to the UK sometime this year so you can drool then! :-) And don't tell him I told you because he is very young as well. (or am I showing my age?!)

If you want to speak to one of the many farriers who have converted then contact Nick Hill of Clover Rose Equine. http://www.cloverroseequine.co.uk/

Mind you he is very very busy and travels all over Europe spreading the 'plague' (literally because he gave me the worst bout of flu I've ever had just before christmas when I met with him and his wife post a trip to Spain)

Lovely lovely guy, very modest too.
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Not read past this post but just wanted to say I have Nick coming out on Wednesday.

I've really struggled with farriers over the years. I always make appointments to be there and yet last time he text saying he hadn't arranged his day properly so just done my horse while he was at the yard earlier. Not amused! I was having the shoes pulled and when I got there the feet were not trimmed correctly by any standards. I've also had a farrier (who was working under vet's supervision) lame a horse because he altered her hoof balance so much (toe long, no heel). I have pictures but nothing to confirm it was him the shod her on that date. I pulled her shoes that same day and she needed box rest until another farrier could come out.

I had an "Equine Podiatrist" out to a QH with navicular as I was clutching at straws. The trimmer was awful; needless to say she was only out once and QH went into remedial shoes. Two liveries on the yard I've moved to have also used the same trimmer and had bad experiences.

This put me off "barefoot" and I went back to my beliefs that not every horse could cope barefoot or do every/any activity without shoes and if you have a good farrier shoes are fine.

It's only recently that I've started to question shoeing horses. I've bought the Jaime Jackson & Pete Ramey books, Feet First and a few other texts. I've also re-read other books I have with "barefoot" in mind and taken different things from them than I had originally because of the new information I have taken on board. I'm hopeful to learn a lot more during Nick's visits.

Maybe other people are really lucky but I've always struggled to find a farrier who would (could?) balance a foot correctly. Maybe if I was close to the likes of Hayden Price I'd stick with shoeing but I don't so I'm trying to do the best I can for my horses. I don't ever want to lose another due to navicular.
 
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