Can anyone remember the horse who refused to start the Grand National?

teagreen said:
Wagtail - genuinely interested questions here. Apologies if you've answered them before, I've read so many racing replies I just can't remember!

You say you are for racing as long as races are not too long or too tough. If you could reform racing tomorrow, how would you do it? What is the maximum length you'd impose and how would you not make them 'too tough'?
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If you look at the GN, many horses really fall away at the run up. I think you need it long enough so that jockeys still pace their horses and don't speed up too much but not so long that horses are oxygen starved by the end of the race. Obviously, I am talking about fit horses here and not horses that really shouldn't be running. I am flexible in my views on length, but 3 and a half miles seems a good length to me. There may be valid reasons why this would not work - I wait to learn! In addition I would like to see all the drops removed from race fences. I am not too worried about the height personally as I think reducing the number of runners would have a far greater effect on safety.
 
Caledonia said:
You are a clown aren't you? What is an instinct to be in front if not competitive?

You don't seem to have any idea about how a horse's mind works. :confused::(
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lol :D Competitive is a human term. Horse only know stimulus/response. I don't know how much more simply I can make it. It is you who seems to be anthrophomophising. Okay, if you want to believe horses know they have won the GN and therefore try to win it then go ahead. :rolleyes:
 
Caledonia said:
I did not say that - don't use your ignorance to put words into my mouth :rolleyes:
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Look, either horses understand competition or they don't. If they understand competition, they can be described as competitive and will try to win races, bite jockeys on the bum, everything you have described. If you believe that, then fair enough. You are entitled to. We will have to agree to differ.
 
LOL, so if race horses are competing, but you accept they have no idea whether or not they have won something, what exactly are they competing for?

I'd argue that if a gang of horses are running, the instinct to try to get to the front that some have is directly linked to being the furthest away from the predator running after the group which in many a horse's mind would have been the trigger for the running, and therefore they would be the least likely to get munched!
 
If mine knows its competing can someone have a word with him and request he does perfect halfpasses and flying changes, puts his head in the right places and makes and effort to use his hindquaters, just for 4 and half minutes and if he could give the judge a grin when we halt an X then that would be a bonus! Extra points for smiling at the judge!
Oh and when he knows he has won he can be told he may take a bow!
 
charlie76 said:
If mine knows its competing can someone have a word with him and request he does perfect halfpasses and flying changes, puts his head in the right places and makes and effort to use his hindquaters, just for 4 and half minutes and if he could give the judge a grin when we halt an X then that would be a bonus! Extra points for smiling at the judge!
Oh and when he knows he has won he can be told he may take a bow!
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Maybe Caledonia could have a word. :D I would, but I don't believe that they are competitive as apparently I am not so clever as Caledonia (actually I'm an ignorant clown :eek: :D) who doesn't know nothing duh. :)
 
Flame_ said:
LOL, so if race horses are competing, but you accept they have no idea whether or not they have won something, what exactly are they competing for?

I'd argue that if a gang of horses are running, the instinct to try to get to the front that some have is directly linked to being the furthest away from the predator running after the group which in many a horse's mind would have been the trigger for the running, and therefore they would be the least likely to get munched!
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Perhaps it's a lacking in your education, Flame, but being competitive does not have mean there is a literal win as in a cup.
Horses are competitive in daily life for attention, for food and for shelter. There is a desire to gain, ie more attention, more food, or hogging a shelter. They are competitive about not letting a horse go past them, some more than others, and you see that when they are hooning around a field, as well as being ridden.
I've ridden loads of horses that hate to be behind another horse, but settle very happily when they can lead. Some don't mind being behind, some do. That where you get your herd leaders, and your winning horses, because they try, and want to be in front.
 
Caledonia said:
Perhaps it's a lacking in your education, Flame, but being competitive does not have mean there is a literal win as in a cup.
Horses are competitive in daily life for attention, for food and for shelter. There is a desire to gain, ie more attention, more food, or hogging a shelter. They are competitive about not letting a horse go past them, some more than others, and you see that when they are hooning around a field, as well as being ridden.
I've ridden loads of horses that hate to be behind another horse, but settle very happily when they can lead. Some don't mind being behind, some do. That where you get your herd leaders, and your winning horses, because they try, and want to be in front.
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Again, that is our human perception. Horses are not competitive they are simply reacting to stimuli. A stallion sees another stallion. His instincts and hormones force him to try to drive it away. Same thing with food. They are driven to use aggression against others to ensure they get the resources they need. Yes, we term it as competing for food etc, but to then apply it to our sporting activities and assume the horse knows it is competing is anthrophomorphising. It is a completely different thing to wild behaviour. Horses do not understand our sport. They just react to their environment and strive to acheive rewards or avoid punishment. To say a horse is competitive is no different from saying that a slug is competitive, or a plant as they too compete for resources. Your argument is not logical.
 
Caledonia said:
Perhaps it's a lacking in your education, Flame, but being competitive does not have mean there is a literal win as in a cup.
Horses are competitive in daily life for attention, for food and for shelter. There is a desire to gain, ie more attention, more food, or hogging a shelter. They are competitive about not letting a horse go past them, some more than others, and you see that when they are hooning around a field, as well as being ridden.
I've ridden loads of horses that hate to be behind another horse, but settle very happily when they can lead. Some don't mind being behind, some do. That where you get your herd leaders, and your winning horses, because they try, and want to be in front.
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I see what you are getting at, but what are you saying, will a horse gain by getting in front in a race?
 
I agree with Wagtail on this.

Horses do not understand competing and competiton in any sport - racing, showjumping, dressage etc. Do you think they understand they will get 4 faults if they knock a rail?!

With regards to racing - it's purely herd instinct - survival of the fittest. Their brain is geared to survival - if the other horses around then run - they follow. After a couple of races they learn that they will be running that day - that doesn't mean that they understand they have to the first past the finishing post. They don't think - oh I've got a fulong to go so I better get a move on! They respond to the jockey.
 
Wagtail said:
If you look at the GN, many horses really fall away at the run up. I think you need it long enough so that jockeys still pace their horses and don't speed up too much but not so long that horses are oxygen starved by the end of the race. Obviously, I am talking about fit horses here and not horses that really shouldn't be running. I am flexible in my views on length, but 3 and a half miles seems a good length to me. There may be valid reasons why this would not work - I wait to learn! In addition I would like to see all the drops removed from race fences. I am not too worried about the height personally as I think reducing the number of runners would have a far greater effect on safety.
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Genuine question, not wanting to stir anything up, genuinely curious.... As I understand it, in a sprint you respire anaerobically so when you get to the end you'll be absolutely out of breath, whereas a marathon requires you to respire aerobically so in theory if you were fit enough then by the end you'd be tired but not out of breath, if you see what I mean. So a horse running as fast as possible at the end of a marathon like the GN will be as oxygen deprived as a horse running as fast as possible at the end of a sprint, over a short distance... is this right?

So in theory provided horses are fit enough to manage the distance, the final push at the end where they're breathing anaerobically wouldn't be the bit that's the problem, it would more be if they weren't fit enough in the first place? I'm no biologist and have no practical racing experience so please correct me if I'm wrong!!

Edited to add that on the flip side a horse that's predisposed to problems when breathing anaerobically is as likely to suffer problems in a sprint as they are in a marathon
 
Flame_ said:
I see what you are getting at, but what are you saying, will a horse gain by getting in front in a race?
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Horses that win races tend to be those that want to lead. You can harness that natural tendency and hold then up, (as you would out hacking, for example if cantering in a group) then allow them to take you to the front when you can.
You also get horses who are natural 'front runners'. These are horses that don't settle in behind other horses, no matter how much you try, so in their races they tend to be the ones that make the running.
I know some trainers have to exercise these ones on their own, as their competitiveness, or rivalry if you like, makes then difficult to settle in company.
 
Vixstar said:
With regards to racing - it's purely herd instinct - survival of the fittest. Their brain is geared to survival - if the other horses around then run - they follow. After a couple of races they learn that they will be running that day - that doesn't mean that they understand they have to the first past the finishing post. They don't think - oh I've got a fulong to go so I better get a move on! They respond to the jockey.
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How many racehorses in training have you ridden? Have you ridden work? Do you hack out in company to do fittening canters?

Your previous posts indicate not, so how on earth can you expect to be taken seriously when you have no experience of what you are talking about?

To the horse it's about getting past the horse beside them or in front of them. That's the competitive element, and it kicks in, if they have it, in a race, or a field, or out on a hack.
 
Here's a quote from a paper by A.McLean & P.McGreevy titled "Ethical equitation: Capping the price horses pay for human glory" in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior (2010) that is relevant to the discussion:

"It is also possible that hurdling, steeplechasing, and the use of the whip in racing may be moderated or banned altogether as a result of pressure from outside the racing industry--there are growing calls for more thorough training of horses and jockeys to jump fences correctly and to prevent horses from being placed in situations where there is a high risk of injury or death. The suggestion that horses relish jumping obstacles ignores the fact that, regardless of their breeding, these animals are, first and foremost, a prey species for whom safety is paramount. They naturally avoid obstacles by going round them. And why would they not? Being able to see where to place their feet is critical for their safety. To gallop full-tilt into the unknown is inherently aversive and so must be trained. This explains why foals are not seen spontaneously leaping out of paddocks for the sheer joy of jumping. Of course, some horses are sufficiently trained to tackle fences without their jockeys, but this reflects their conditioning and the herd effect rather than any thrill they may feel from soaring over a manmade obstacle. Horses that bolt toward jumps in showjumping and cross-country are recognized as a danger to themselves and their riders. Running at hazards should not be confused with choosing to jump."
 
Caledonia said:
How many racehorses in training have you ridden? Have you ridden work? Do you hack out in company to do fittening canters?

Your previous posts indicate not, so how on earth can you expect to be taken seriously when you have no experience of what you are talking about?

To the horse it's about getting past the horse beside them or in front of them. That's the competitive element, and it kicks in, if they have it, in a race, or a field, or out on a hack.
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I'm purely expressing my opinion on the matter - and I have a sound understanding of horse behaviour and instinct. No I haven't ridden a racehorse, but ride regularly and know what it's like to ride fast canters/gallops in a large group - I could give you a more detailed description of my riding experience, but I don't think it's necessary and you wouldn't really care.

Yes - the horse does want to get past the horse in front - in their head to survive - not to win a race and win lots of money for those concerned. That's what I mean by a horse having no concept of competition - it's not doing it to win a race is it? It doesn't have an understanding of the rules, that people are betting on it to win - it's the urge to run with the others, to get ahead so it doesn't end up as dinner! IMO it is down to evolution of the horse and to run is its main survival technique.
 
So we have established that, until horses can talk, we will never know what they think...

I agree with what Morris says in the BHA statement:
"The second issue is the wider ethical debate of whether it is right for humans to use animals in leisure, for sport and for food. Neither of these issues is served by the motive language and misleading information from animal rights campaigners."
 
fburton said:
Not for sure... but we can get some way by careful observation of their behaviour - how they react in specific situations, etc.
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But it's the not for sure bit that is the problem. Until we know for sure, which we won't, we're just guessing.

I'm just guessing that my horse enjoys hacking with friends because he goes out dancing about with his ears pricked and is extremely responsive. If he spots a log to jump and I point him towards it, he certainly shows no resistance. I have another one who won't go anywhere near the log, or any other pole for that matter, so I assume he doesn't enjoy jumping, but does enjoy hacking.

I have schooled racehorses, both in a group and on their own. They react in the exact same way I have described above, ears pricked, seemingly excited, offering no resistance when I pointed them at jumps of various sizes. So I'm guessing, as is everyone else, that for whatever reason, they seem to enjoy it.
 
fburton said:
Here's a quote from a paper by A.McLean & P.McGreevy titled "Ethical equitation: Capping the price horses pay for human glory" in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior (2010) that is relevant to the discussion:

"It is also possible that hurdling, steeplechasing, and the use of the whip in racing may be moderated or banned altogether as a result of pressure from outside the racing industry--there are growing calls for more thorough training of horses and jockeys to jump fences correctly and to prevent horses from being placed in situations where there is a high risk of injury or death. The suggestion that horses relish jumping obstacles ignores the fact that, regardless of their breeding, these animals are, first and foremost, a prey species for whom safety is paramount. They naturally avoid obstacles by going round them. And why would they not? Being able to see where to place their feet is critical for their safety. To gallop full-tilt into the unknown is inherently aversive and so must be trained. This explains why foals are not seen spontaneously leaping out of paddocks for the sheer joy of jumping. Of course, some horses are sufficiently trained to tackle fences without their jockeys, but this reflects their conditioning and the herd effect rather than any thrill they may feel from soaring over a manmade obstacle. Horses that bolt toward jumps in showjumping and cross-country are recognized as a danger to themselves and their riders. Running at hazards should not be confused with choosing to jump."
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This I believe was written after the high rate of attrition in AUSTRALIAN racing.
That said, are you suggesting we ban all jumping of horses because this guy says horses don't spend their lives jumping in and out of fields? (although I have had one, and know of at least 2 others who have jumped out their fields since they were foals. )
 
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Vixstar said:
I'm purely expressing my opinion on the matter - and I have a sound understanding of horse behaviour and instinct.
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Well with the greatest respect, I don't believe you do. If these horses were running in races for fear of their lives, they'd be dangerous, they wouldn't jump, they'd be bolting.
 
Caledonia said:
This I believe was written after the high rate of attrition in AUSTRALIAN racing.
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That may well be one of the motivations for the paper, given the authors are indeed Australian (well, PMcG is English but now lives in Australia). However, in the paper they talk about equitation in general, not just racing.

That said, are you suggesting we ban all jumping of horses because this guy says horses don't spend their lives jumping in and out of fields?
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No, I am not. I quoted it because it has a bearing on anthropomorphic interpretation of horses' behaviour when racing.

(although I have had one, and know of at least 2 others who have jumped out their fields since they were foals. )
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Indeed, my TB jumped out of his field once (as an adult).
 
Interesting to read peoples responces. I am not against racing but don't think races should be made too hard and too long. Just like I don't think they should make XC course too hard/big/complex. Maybe one of the options but not all.
 
Gosh there are some right stupid people on this forum. Sorry! Not much angers me but how on earth someone can comment on racehorses galloping without every riding one is beyond me.
Having been cantering racehorses since I was 14 and have ridden in a few p2p's some of you really don't have a clue. Horses ARE competitive, some are not however. Horses ARE NOT galloping just because of herd instinct and infact the jockeys are ditacting the pace of the race and whether the horse is out front or being held up. Some horses DO enjoy jumping, having loosed schooled my pointer (without a whip or guide poles) the only way to get him to stop jumping is to remove the jump. Another horse we have is turned out in a paddock with xc jump, which it canters around the paddock and jumps on compleatly its own accord.
Oh, btw galloping a load of unfit, untrained ponies around the field is NOTHING like riding a racehorse.
 
fburton said:
However, in the paper they talk about equitation in general, not just racing.


No, I am not. I quoted it because it has a bearing on anthropomorphic interpretation of horses' behaviour when racing.
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Firstly, they mean it about all horses, you can't cherry pick what they are saying.
Secondly - I am not being anthropomorphic - horses do compete for space, food and power, and that's what they do in a race. They have no idea of the future, they live in the moment and respond accordingly. And they want to get past the horse in front of them if they have that 'leader' drive in their make up.
Hence the incident I quoted was a racehorse trying to intimidate another racehorse by biting him to try and send him away from getting past him.
 
Caledonia said:
Well with the greatest respect, I don't believe you do. If these horses were running in races for fear of their lives, they'd be dangerous, they wouldn't jump, they'd be bolting.
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That's your opinion - but not the case :D

Ah - but that's where training comes into it isn't it? So they are controllable and not running blind. I don't think the horses are scared when they run in races- in fact they seem to enjoy it. But I'm sure you will agree that it is instinct to run with the other horses.

When I said they are running so they are don't end up as dinner - I didn't liteally mean that the modern day racehorse thinks a lion is chasing them in the race - but they have evolved to run with the herd to survive and that instinct is still with them, dispite years of domestication.

So, to sum up; IMO horses are not competitive in the way that we understand it.
 
Caledonia said:
If these horses were running in races for fear of their lives, they'd be dangerous, they wouldn't jump, they'd be bolting.
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Like you, I don't believe they are running "in fear of their lives" - or in blind fear, when they would indeed be bolting. However, that is not incompatible with Vixstar's statements:

"With regards to racing - it's purely herd instinct - survival of the fittest. Their brain is geared to survival - if the other horses around then run - they follow. After a couple of races they learn that they will be running that day - that doesn't mean that they understand they have to the first past the finishing post. They don't think - oh I've got a fulong to go so I better get a move on! They respond to the jockey."

and

"it's the urge to run with the others, to get ahead so it doesn't end up as dinner! IMO it is down to evolution of the horse and to run is its main survival technique."

Like Vixstar, I think racing taps into the instinct to flee from danger and to stay with the herd for safety. The instinct is easily aroused - the horse does not have to be in a state of blind panic.
 
So therefore it is more natural than say SJ where they are by themselves in a ring jumping un-natural obstacles, or dressage?

So what if it taps into the horse's natural instinct, all the better for it then.
 
dominobrown said:
Gosh there are some right stupid people on this forum. Sorry! Not much angers me but how on earth someone can comment on racehorses galloping without every riding one is beyond me.
Having been cantering racehorses since I was 14 and have ridden in a few p2p's some of you really don't have a clue. Horses ARE competitive, some are not however. Horses ARE NOT galloping just because of herd instinct and infact the jockeys are ditacting the pace of the race and whether the horse is out front or being held up. Some horses DO enjoy jumping, having loosed schooled my pointer (without a whip or guide poles) the only way to get him to stop jumping is to remove the jump. Another horse we have is turned out in a paddock with xc jump, which it canters around the paddock and jumps on compleatly its own accord.
Oh, btw galloping a load of unfit, untrained ponies around the field is NOTHING like riding a racehorse.
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Your rude aren't you. Why can't you give your opinion on the matter without insulting people?

Anyway... if you read my previous post I gave an example where a jockey pushes the horse on at the end - the horse doesn't surge forward on it's own accord because it knows its near the finishing line and therefore will win?

I agree that some horses enjoy jumping - mine does. He jumps on his own accord, bless him.

When did I ever use the comparison of galloping an untrained/unfit pony round a field to a racehorse?!
 
What does it matter?! If you believe horses enjoy racing, great. If you believe they don't, then you don't support racing. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with the GN because the a horse, the GN is just any other race.
 
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