Can anyone remember the horse who refused to start the Grand National?

dominobrown said:
Gosh there are some right stupid people on this forum. Sorry! Not much angers me but how on earth someone can comment on racehorses galloping without every riding one is beyond me.
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Labelling people stupid simply because their opinions and ideas differ from yours comes across as rude and intolerant, even if you didn't mean it to. I owned a TB for 17 years, and have galloped on gallops.

Some horses DO enjoy jumping, having loosed schooled my pointer (without a whip or guide poles) the only way to get him to stop jumping is to remove the jump. Another horse we have is turned out in a paddock with xc jump, which it canters around the paddock and jumps on compleatly its own accord.
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Oh, I'm sure that horses can learn to enjoy jumping, and maybe a few even like it enough to do it unbidden and untrained (though I would consider them to be very unusual). I am also sure that some don't enjoy it but will do so anyway after training and if ridden well.
 
Vixstar said:
Your rude aren't you. Why can't you give your opinion on the matter without insulting people?

Anyway... if you read my previous post I gave an example where a jockey pushes the horse on at the end - the horse doesn't surge forward on it's own accord because it knows its near the finishing line and therefore will win?

I agree that some horses enjoy jumping - mine does. He jumps on his own accord, bless him.

When did I ever use the comparison of galloping an untrained/unfit pony round a field to a racehorse?!
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I am not rude.
Here are the facts...
-My post was not directed on one poster in particular but from comments made throughout the thread.
- I find it very insulting that some posters spout 'facts' which are infact opinions which have no basis around them, and are often completely wrong. You are entitled to an opinion, but that is all it is.... your opinion.
 
kickonchaps said:
Genuine question, not wanting to stir anything up, genuinely curious.... As I understand it, in a sprint you respire anaerobically so when you get to the end you'll be absolutely out of breath, whereas a marathon requires you to respire aerobically so in theory if you were fit enough then by the end you'd be tired but not out of breath, if you see what I mean. So a horse running as fast as possible at the end of a marathon like the GN will be as oxygen deprived as a horse running as fast as possible at the end of a sprint, over a short distance... is this right?

So in theory provided horses are fit enough to manage the distance, the final push at the end where they're breathing anaerobically wouldn't be the bit that's the problem, it would more be if they weren't fit enough in the first place? I'm no biologist and have no practical racing experience so please correct me if I'm wrong!!

Edited to add that on the flip side a horse that's predisposed to problems when breathing anaerobically is as likely to suffer problems in a sprint as they are in a marathon
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I understand what you are saying. However, I am of the opinion that there is a 'maximum' exertion that any particular animal is capable of at its absolute fittest. I think the GN is too near that maximum and even beyond it for most. I would like to discover scientifically what that maximum is for a horse and set the race just short of that. I have no means of carrying out that research. But I would love it if someone would.
 
Vixstar said:
So, to sum up; IMO horses are not competitive in the way that we understand it.
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No, you just refuse to see the word competitive in it's sense other than 'winning'.

Not only do you nor understand horses, you don't understand the vagaries of your own language. :rolleyes:
 
teagreen said:
So we have established that, until horses can talk, we will never know what they think...

I agree with what Morris says in the BHA statement:
"The second issue is the wider ethical debate of whether it is right for humans to use animals in leisure, for sport and for food. Neither of these issues is served by the motive language and misleading information from animal rights campaigners."
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Teagreen, do you agree with Caledonia then, that horses are competitive and they will even bite jockeys on the bum to stop them getting past? Sorry, corrected to say other horses bum? Is that right?
 
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dominobrown said:
I am not rude.
Here are the facts...
-My post was not directed on one poster in particular but from comments made throughout the thread.
- I find it very insulting that some posters spout 'facts' which are infact opinions which have no basis around them, and are often completely wrong. You are entitled to an opinion, but that is all it is.... your opinion.
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Even though you said "Gosh there are some right stupid people on this forum. Sorry! Not much angers me but how on earth someone can comment on racehorses galloping without every riding one is beyond me".

Anyway that's besides the point.

I think you will find that horses instinct and behaviour have been very well studied. And that a horse will follow the herd for safety is infact fact! I thought this was basic horse knowledge?! The flight and fight instinct. And this instinct has been manipulated for racing.

It's not just my opinion it's fact. What is my opinion however, is the horses understanding of competition.
 
Wagtail said:
I understand what you are saying. However, I am of the opinion that there is a 'maximum' exertion that any particular animal is capable of at its absolute fittest. I think the GN is too near that maximum and even beyond it for most. I would like to discover scientifically what that maximum is for a horse and set the race just short of that. I have no means of carrying out that research. But I would love it if someone would.
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It would be very hard to do, as it differs for each horse. Some old records of races on Arabs and Akhal Tekes (sp?) are a lot longer but they are natural stayers. Quarter horses are quite poor at staying (hence quarter horses). Some TB's are both. Some will be from sprinting sires, others from stayers and the outcome of results will be quite different. 4 and half miles is do-able for good staying horses but impossible for poor stayers.
I agree that there is a 'maximum exertion' for every horse not matter how fit it is, but its different for every horse. So yes GN is too far for A LOT of horses, very true. But for some it suits them.
 
and there was me getting concerned that Ballabriggs didn't get to go down to the winners enclosure and so therefore didn't know he'd won the Grand National!!

Getting back to the OP's question, what happened to the horse (King John's Castle) did he stay in training?
 
dominobrown said:
It would be very hard to do, as it differs for each horse. Some old records of races on Arabs and Akhal Tekes (sp?) are a lot longer but they are natural stayers. Quarter horses are quite poor at staying (hence quarter horses). Some TB's are both. Some will be from sprinting sires, others from stayers and the outcome of results will be quite different. 4 and half miles is do-able for good staying horses but impossible for poor stayers.
I agree that there is a 'maximum exertion' for every horse not matter how fit it is, but its different for every horse. So yes GN is too far for A LOT of horses, very true. But for some it suits them.
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It would be safer though, fewer falls etc, it horses were not quite so tired?
 
Vixstar said:
Even though you said "Gosh there are some right stupid people on this forum. Sorry! Not much angers me but how on earth someone can comment on racehorses galloping without every riding one is beyond me".

Anyway that's besides the point.

I think you will find that horses instinct and behaviour have been very well studied. And that a horse will follow the herd for safety is infact fact! I thought this was basic horse knowledge?! The flight and fight instinct. And this instinct has been manipulated for racing.

It's not just my opinion it's fact. What is my opinion however, is the horses understanding of competition.
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Yes in some cases it is correct, however it is not always the case. More to the point although manipulated for racing the horse is controlled by the jockey and can be pulled up, steered etc and the horses are not just running in terror.
I do not however believe that horse instict and behaviour have been studied very well, not in comparision to human mind and lot of research still could be done.
As for basic horse knowledge I believe I have a very good unstanding of it.

Wagtail- Yeh tired horses are more likely to make mistakes as are tired humans. Look at the final fences of WEG for instance. Although simple horses and riders made silly mistakes resulting in falls.
Saying that overfrresh and overkeen horses also make stupid mistakes.
To jump around GN course you need a horse which is a good and clever jumper with a foot perfect technique overwise you don't have a cat in hells chance.
Maybe in GN if the horse has poor form over fences (like a few falls in normal steeplechases) is should not be allowed to run.
 
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dominobrown said:
Yes in some cases it is correct, however it is not always the case. More to the point although manipulated for racing the horse is controlled by the jockey and can be pulled up, steered etc and the horses are not just running in terror.
I do not however believe that horse instict and behaviour have been studied very well, not in comparision to human mind and lot of research still could be done.
As for basic horse knowledge I believe I have a very good unstanding of it.
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I have stated previously that the modern racehorses are not running in fear - just the instinct has been there for years and years - despite domestication. Agree, more studies and research should be needed - maybe a study to see if horses are indeed competitive :p

I wasn't suggesting you don't have basic horse knowledge - judging by your posts you know a lot. I thought you were saying that horses don't run because of instinct. For the record I believe the instinct is the grounding of the horses running in the first place, the training and riding that comes on after makes them into racehorses. - Oh and breeding obviously!
 
No herd instince is not irrelevant, but is not the only reason why horse's race. Hence the word 'just'.

If you turn a bunch of horses in a field often they will gallop, often they will not however.
Vixstar- It would be intersting to be able to know what the horse is thinking when competing don't you think? For instance measure levels of fear etc when jumping a ditch. Happiness hormones etc to see if horses really do 'love' it. I think we only have a basic knowledge of how a horse thinks, unfortunatly.
 
dominobrown said:
No herd instince is not irrelevant, but is not the only reason why horse's race. Hence the word 'just'.

If you turn a bunch of horses in a field often they will gallop, often they will not however.
Vixstar- It would be intersting to be able to know what the horse is thinking when competing don't you think? For instance measure levels of fear etc when jumping a ditch. Happiness hormones etc to see if horses really do 'love' it. I think we only have a basic knowledge of how a horse thinks, unfortunatly.
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Yeah totally! Stuff like that I would find really interesting. I wish we knew what horses were thinking :rolleyes: *sigh*
 
dominobrown said:
No herd instince is not irrelevant, but is not the only reason why horse's race. Hence the word 'just'.
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That's what I thought - just wanted to confirm! :)

If you turn a bunch of horses in a field often they will gallop, often they will not however.
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There's no doubt horses also run around together for "fun" - play is a well-recognized feature of horse behaviour. Is the kind of sustained running that occurs in racing indicative of play behaviour though? I doubt it.

Vixstar- It would be intersting to be able to know what the horse is thinking when competing don't you think? For instance measure levels of fear etc when jumping a ditch. Happiness hormones etc to see if horses really do 'love' it. I think we only have a basic knowledge of how a horse thinks, unfortunatly.
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One could measure hormone levels but I suspect the ones you would see going up would be to do with stress (cortisol) and the "fight or flight" response (adrenaline) - which isn't really what you were after!

Alternatively, a standard way to assess whether horses like doing something or not is to measure how much or how often they do it when left to their own devices. I'm not sure how well that would work in the racing situation though - eject horses from starting stalls and see how fast they race and who gets to the finishing line first - or not, as the case may be.
 
errr, not sure really sure what 'i am after'. Apart from understanding what the horse is thinking better.
I am pro-racing and don't believe it is cruel, that is my opinion and the stance I am coming from.
Though horse's would 'run a race' in the same way they would be themselves, neither would they go show jumping, do a dressage test or go xc, or even a hack around the roads (suspect they would rather eat in all cases!).
Some horses 'want' to do it, some horse 'want' to please and obey their riders. Some horses don't, hence horse not starting a race or leaving the start box etc, and if a horse really 'doesn't' want to do something there is not much we can do about it!
Andrenaline however is addictive, and quite often is positive. Why an earth would people decide to race care (or horses) go xc, do bungee jumping etc?
 
Pepe, 13.2 bay pony, now sadly no longer with us, but simply one of the best mounted games ponies ever......The mug race.....Pepe and rider going for mug, another pony starts to get alongside, Pepe.....open mouth, teeth showing, ears firmly back, this is my mug, clear off. That pony knew exactly what was happening, and no other pony was going to get there first. So yes, they do get competitive and enjoy being no 1.
 
King Johns Castle was second in the National in 2008 to Comply or Die by some distance. He didn't do much after this and maybe decided he didn't want to go round again in 2010.
He is now doing point to point. Looked him up on RP site.
 
I admit to knowing nothing about race horses/racing. I was just watching the GN clip and found it interesting that the horses whose jockeys had fallen, continued to race without the rider. So my question is, why do they do that? I would tend to think it's herd instinct, keep up with the herd? But then I saw one jump the barrier (knocking part off) and went the other direction to the other horses. So just confused really :)

I am not a fan. But I don't give it much time to know much about it.
 
Alligator, apparently at the Preakness, on that last turn, from the stand, all you could see was blue and white checks appearing, then disappearing, then reappearing, then disappearing, then reappearing :p
 
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