can horses really 'fake' being lame??

lannerch said:
I'm with the no they don't , certain lameness can work of in a few strides, horses ridden incorrectly can be bridle lame, adrenalin kicking in with excitement when a bucket is shaked can mask minor lameness, arthritic lameness may only show for a few strides, there are many reasons, but am certain all you that have known a horse so called faking it would have had one if them!
Click to expand...

Completely agree.

A good rider can make a lame horse look sound. We had a horse here with all kinds of issues. On the lunge he would skip behind and go disuntited in canter. Obviously unsound. When we rode him in canter, and balanced him making it impossible for him to go disunited, he looked sound. He was found to have arthritis of the neck, kissing spine, sacroiliac dysfunction and PSD.
 
Last edited:
lannerch said:
I'm with the no they don't , certain lameness can work of in a few strides, horses ridden incorrectly can be bridle lame, adrenalin kicking in with excitement when a bucket is shaked can mask minor lameness, arthritic lameness may only show for a few strides, there are many reasons, but am certain all you that have known a horse so called faking it would have had one if them!
Click to expand...

Finally the voice of reason...I'm gobsmacked that people seem to genuinely think a horse can 'fake' lameness.
 
No, they can't fake lameness. There is always a reason, but the owner may not know what it is, or want to acknowledge that there is lameness. Cognitive dissonance,imo.
 
I think everyone saying that horses can fake it need to remember their brains are the size of a walnut and they don't have the mental capacity to think like that.
 
I suppose one who has had a lot of lameness issues could conceivably be conditioned to think that if it looks lame, it gets put back in its stable. But then, if it's had a lot of lameness issues, it might just be lame.

For the most part, it is far too abstract for their little horsey brains. The lameness that appears and then disappears, as others have said, is probably due to momentary twinges, stiffness, etc. The rider or owner, meanwhile, associates it with work or whatever other random events may be corresponding to the horse appearing off and then going sound.
 
Kikke said:
My mare can, had her schooled earlier this summer. Normally always schooled by me or my trainer who knows her ....... but seeing she was pregnant someone else schooled her.
Both the instructor (not my normal trainer) and rider gave up as she was lame on all 4 legs it seemed.
Got a email at work. All worried went to the yard to check.
Lunged her, nothing, rode her, nothing. Mmmmmmmmm spoke to my trainer who could only laugh. Honestly so could I.
Click to expand...

deleted as realised you were talking about the human being pregnant.
 
NellRosk said:
I think everyone saying that horses can fake it need to remember their brains are the size of a walnut and they don't have the mental capacity to think like that.
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree that horses cannot fake being lame, their brain is a lot bigger than a walnut! It's about the size of a grapefruit.
 
My old mare would get worse the more sympathetic you were with her same as with the dogs if you speak to them in a soppy voices saying what's wrong my poor ickle baby they definitely play on it. Don't think they initially fake it though, but then think about if you are walking and turn your ankle or something and are crippled for a couple of steps and then it goes I think they get a twinge for whatever reason and then are fine but like the fuss they get when we think they're in pain.
 
NellRosk said:
I think everyone saying that horses can fake it need to remember their brains are the size of a walnut and they don't have the mental capacity to think like that.
Click to expand...

I fully agree that horses can't fake lameness but have you ever dissected a horse's brain? You must eat jolly large walnuts!!
 
I don't think horses are intelligent enough to think that way - not that they are unintelligent, but that level of thought is surely beyond them..

Far more common I am sure are cases of horses that bear the burden of lameness and other issues patiently and without complaint. My boy appeared to have a slight lameness on one forelimb. Nerve blocks and xrays showed him to be lame on both fronts as a result of DJD in the coffin joint, slightly lame behind with spavins in both hocks, and to top it off mild kissing spines. Poor boy must have had these issues for quite some time (for various reasons I chose to not have him vetted when I bought him 18months ago) - and he could have been excused for some awful behaviour given the pain he must have been in, IMO.
 
I also don't think that horses "forget" the leg that they are "faking" lameness on, which seems to be used as evidence of faking. I suspect such horses are bilaterally lame and it can look worse on one or the other leg, depending on how they're standing or moving or the surface. Your vet can induce this lame leg switching by nerve blocking one suspect site of pain and the horse goes lame on a different leg.
 
lannerch said:
I'm with the no they don't , certain lameness can work of in a few strides, horses ridden incorrectly can be bridle lame, adrenalin kicking in with excitement when a bucket is shaked can mask minor lameness, arthritic lameness may only show for a few strides, there are many reasons, but am certain all you that have known a horse so called faking it would have had one if them!
Click to expand...
Agree, any excitement/fear can over ride lameness.

If lameness comes and goes it still means something is wrong, ignore it at your horses peril and your pocket!
 
JillA said:
I don't believe they can "fake" but if they exhibit a behaviour and it gets reinforced, even inadvertently, they will repeat the behaviour (the basic rule of reinforcement = any behaviour which gets reinforced is likely to be repeated). So if they go unlevel and work ceases, a smart pony might go unlevel again. The more it is repeated the more confirmed it becomes.
My horse has had his "pretty face" (appealing with dipped head and fluttering eyelashes) reinforced one time by his feed arriving immediately after, so now, at feed time I get his pretty face. Much better than door kicking!
Click to expand...

This ^^^
One of my horses coughs when you first go into trot following a tie back/hobday operation. When I've had other people ride her for short periods of time her cough has got worse. If when she coughs she's allowed to go back to walk it doesn't take her long to start coughing every time she goes into trot or is asked to work harder than she wants. She's even had people getting off her as her cough is so bad and yet if I then get on, nothing. She's learnt that if the cough is immediately rewarded with a downward transition then there's a pretty good chance it will happen again. The reaction/reward has to be pretty immediate for this kind of behaviour. I can see how if a horse had a couple of unlevel strides it was stopped and this happened a couple of times in a row a horse may be able to fake a lameness to get an immediate response but not appear lame in the field and realise that it won't get ridden when it comes in.
 
x-di-x said:
No!

Horses are animals. The do not have 'spite' like humans. Horses can go lame for a few strides and not be faking it! As humans when we are doing things we can tweak something that pains us for a few moments. The same thing happens with horses. Hence instant temporary lameness. Evenness of ground, cramp like symptoms in muscles etc are all factors.

Temporary lameness (especially on changing legs) can often be an early indicator of an underlying problem (early stages).
Click to expand...

Okay....so the pony that thinks being caught = work won't be caught, the pony that thinks being caught = change of scenery & more fresh grass? (Have just chased our 23 year old round for half an hour because last time he was caught he went for a 2 hour hack whereas the NF who is normally more tricky to catch went over the road to strim the neighbour's garden - so today he practically walked into the headcollar to be caught.)

I'm of the view it's learned behaviour, and any clever pony could work this out. Am sure Laura Wheeler's Herbie can fake lameness. There's an excellent video of him lying down to evade lunging.
 
How do you reckon that the horse knows: "taking a few lame steps = I get out of work?"

I get on my horse. Horse takes a few 'off' steps. I ride the horse a little bit more to see if it's just a wee bit of stiffness and if no improvement after five or ten minutes, I think "Ok, definitely not right." Maybe I grab another livery to be a second pair of eyes or maybe I briefly put her on the lunge so I can see how she looks. If the horse is definitely off, back in the stable she goes. But for all the horse knows, I only intended on riding for ten minutes and doing a little lunge after. In order for a behaviour to be conditioned, the reward has to happen *immediately* after the behaviour in question. I don't think a horse has any way of figuring out, "I was a bit unlevel today so that's why she only rode me for ten minutes." That is far too abstract.

If your horse were three legged hopping lame, you (hopefully) wouldn't get on in the first place but I think associating that with not working is too big a conceptual leap. "She brought me in today and didn't ride. The reason is obviously because I was hobbling around. Must try this again." Most of us surely have days where we see our horses, bring them in for a groom, but don't ride. Your horse has no way of knowing that you intended to ride him that day and didn't because he was lame. Or maybe he knows you intended to ride (they are very smart at reading our intentions) but he sure doesn't know why you changed your mind and decided not to. For example, I have gone to the yard fully intending to ride and then didn't because it was dark and a lesson had booked the arena.

The running away from the handler in the field isn't a very good analogy. The reward is immediate. The horse is being pressured, chased, and if the human gives up and goes away, that's an immediate reward for running away.
 
Last edited:
I've known two that definitely faked it. One was a little pony who yes,did have stifle injury when he went over a Cornish hedge which stood at 5 foot and he was a 12.2hh Bodmin Moor pony. We treated and rested him then started him back into work 3 weeks later. He would come in from the field sound as a pound but remarkably go lame on that leg as soon as he was tacked up, and even more remarkably he would become sound again as soon as we turned him back out. We only fell for it a few times and when he realised the game was up the lameness promptly vanished. The other was a wily old boy in a riding school who would limp a bit when he felt like it, then change legs later on. He honestly was completely sound but he knew tricks to get him out of doing much work. His favourite was as soon as the instructor mentioned the word TROT, he would immediately need to have a wee, but would take forever to get anything out. We always gave him the benefit of the doubt but it was a trick and if he was shown a lunge whip and a bit of a stern voice, he would complete the lesson with no further stopping - until the next rider got on the following hour. He also went through a phase of lying down abruptly when he felt like it. He was actually well schooled and I once demonstrated a nice flying change on him but he refused to repeat it. He'd done it once and once was enough in his books! A real character and everyone loved him even if he was a bit of a trial at times.
 
They only learn if the reinforcer is immediate - go unlevel, rider hops off to see why. The reward reinforces the very last thing the horse did, so it only has that effect if there is some sort of positive reinforcement as soon as the lameness is evident. Horses don't conceptualise - think if this....then that. They learn what works by doing and remembering the consequence of doing, it's all about consequences. Watch horses and dogs and remember that rule - if an action gets a positive reinforce it is likely to be repeated and you would be surprised how much they learn that way, especially things you would really rather not, like how to beg for food, or how to get somewhere you don't want them to be :)
 
No, definitely not.

If anything they would tend towards the opposite (hiding lameness, over-compensating etc) because in the wild a lame horse would be a more likely target for predators.

fatpiggy said:
I've known two that definitely faked it. One was a little pony who yes,did have stifle injury when he went over a Cornish hedge which stood at 5 foot and he was a 12.2hh Bodmin Moor pony. We treated and rested him then started him back into work 3 weeks later. He would come in from the field sound as a pound but remarkably go lame on that leg as soon as he was tacked up, and even more remarkably he would become sound again as soon as we turned him back out. We only fell for it a few times and when he realised the game was up the lameness promptly vanished. The other was a wily old boy in a riding school who would limp a bit when he felt like it, then change legs later on. He honestly was completely sound but he knew tricks to get him out of doing much work. His favourite was as soon as the instructor mentioned the word TROT, he would immediately need to have a wee, but would take forever to get anything out. We always gave him the benefit of the doubt but it was a trick and if he was shown a lunge whip and a bit of a stern voice, he would complete the lesson with no further stopping - until the next rider got on the following hour. He also went through a phase of lying down abruptly when he felt like it. He was actually well schooled and I once demonstrated a nice flying change on him but he refused to repeat it. He'd done it once and once was enough in his books! A real character and everyone loved him even if he was a bit of a trial at times.
Click to expand...

Both of those sound like perfect examples of sacroiliac problems.
 
I had a horse who put it on a few times. Incredibly clever horse, who was also bone idle.

Learnt that if he went "lame" out on a hack, he got brought back home.
 
Imo i think they can there are the smart ones out there that when they did go lame werent ridden and they clock this smart ones will use this. I realy dont think we give them enough credit how smart some of these horses are. My cob constanstly pretend he wanted to wee so stop him i stand up and wait and wait and wait sod just didnt want to work i caught on to that one very quickly.
 
puss said:
Imo i think they can there are the smart ones out there that when they did go lame werent ridden and they clock this smart ones will use this. I realy dont think we give them enough credit how smart some of these horses are. My cob constanstly pretend he wanted to wee so stop him i stand up and wait and wait and wait sod just didnt want to work i caught on to that one very quickly.
Click to expand...
Agree completely!
Sure most horses may not be clever enough to do so however there are some that are very very clever and know how to get out of work!!!
 
puss said:
Imo i think they can there are the smart ones out there that when they did go lame werent ridden and they clock this smart ones will use this. I realy dont think we give them enough credit how smart some of these horses are. My cob constanstly pretend he wanted to wee so stop him i stand up and wait and wait and wait sod just didnt want to work i caught on to that one very quickly.
Click to expand...

Yes, I knew a horse like this. He had prostrate and kidney problems. I hope yours is ok. But I still don't believe that horses can fake it, sorry.
 
lannerch said:
I'm with the no they don't , certain lameness can work of in a few strides, horses ridden incorrectly can be bridle lame, adrenalin kicking in with excitement when a bucket is shaked can mask minor lameness, arthritic lameness may only show for a few strides, there are many reasons, but am certain all you that have known a horse so called faking it would have had one if them!
Click to expand...


AGREE
 
puss said:
Imo i think they can there are the smart ones out there that when they did go lame werent ridden and they clock this smart ones will use this. I realy dont think we give them enough credit how smart some of these horses are. My cob constanstly pretend he wanted to wee so stop him i stand up and wait and wait and wait sod just didnt want to work i caught on to that one very quickly.
Click to expand...

Some people have the urge to urinate but find it difficult. So do some horses. I believe your horse genuinely wanted to wee. Perhaps riding him stimulated this urge?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top