can horses "suffering" with Kissing Spines work nicely

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HelsB

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My friend's horse was diagnosed with kissing spines last year....

Basically he started to be lame on & off last year...all the usual diagnostics were done and nothing found, then he had back x-rays and it showed up 2 things, the most pressing was a broken rib (17th so very small) which was removed. He is now being slowly brought back into work after this operation with several setbacks due to other issues!

When they found the broken rib they also discovered kissing spines - well the vets said it was difficult to tell at this stage if this was causing a problem, as the broken rib was the thing that needed sorting out right then, and horses with worse looking x-rays could still be sound, and less bad looking could show signs of discomfort, so x-rays are no exact science if the horse is actually suffering or not.

As I said, the horse is now being brought back into work and his owner (a sensitive soul who notices EVERYTHING) says some days he feels great, other days a bit cranky. I think that this is pretty normal for a horse coming back into work as sometimes when you do a little more with them their muscles get a little tight. And he usually works out of it, however understandably his owner doesn't want to push him due to the underlying issue of the K.S.

My question is, can a horse with K.S work really nicely? Albeit intermittantly? As this horse has the most amazing floaty paces, works softly in an outline as soon as you pick up the reins, particularly in canter, both under saddle and on the lunge, and jumps like a stag (though has done little canter no jumping since brought back into work)

The only time he ever felt unlevel / cranky was when he was having trouble with the rib, and obviously coming back to work which has been on & off he wouldn't feel perfect but has had some "amazing" days.

So if a horse which is actually suffering with K.S can't ever work softly this horse isn't one that needs surgery? But if they can work nicely intermittantly we may still have a problem?

Anyone with experiences of this I would be most grateful of your feedback

Sorry for long post
 
In my opinion, yes they can work nicely, it is estimated that up to 70% of competition horses have kissing spines but some horses can cope with it and some can't, depends on the severity and temperament of the individual horse.

The horse sounds as though its conformation leads it to be able to work very correctly and this is the most important thing in keeping the back strong to compensate for the problem, however in some cases the back can deteriorate over time and so if the horse starts to struggle with canter, become a little unlevel, gets upset going down short sharp hills or starts to show behaviour issues that gradually worsen that would indicate to me that the KS is causing a problem.

My horse struggles with an outline because of the way he is built, because of his general attitude (caused by many years of pain from genetic KS) and because I am not a paticularly good rider despite my best endeavours. He had KS and an operation because he is hyper sensitive and I had severe behavioural issues, he is now back in ridden work. The palliative route didn't work for him but when horses go down this route and have good riders that can ensure they work correctly, it can in some cases negate the need for surgery although they have to be kept fit and muscled which is tiring.

The owner sounds very aware and good at listening to her horse, I would tell her with the rehab from surgery to take her time but not waste it and build the horse up gradually focusing on correct use of back and back end so that the horse maintains strong back muscle. Working long and low possibly with the help of a pessoa is very helpful for this although my own horse can't tolerate gadgets so I found long reining brilliant for him.

Hope this helps and good luck, hope the horse continues to do well.
 
Thankyou for your answer Beth.

We are now left with 1 month left to run before the insurance is invalid on this problem, so have decisions to make.

The horse is going to Rossdales Thursday to have nerve blocks (i think?) in his back to see if he has any improvement, bearing in mind that I would say most of the time this horse appears pain free anyway.

My real question is that because this horse works correctly and soft nearly all the time, and when he does seem cranky you can generally out it down to his work level, is this really a horse who is likely to be "suffering" from kissing spine?

I know he has it, but so do many other undiagnosed......
 
I think it depends on the owner and her plans for the horse, is it competition or pet? and also the horses age and any other issues it may have.

The back can deteriorate so personally I would have it investigated so you know exactly where you stand if you can get the insurance to pay. My recommendation for surgeon would be Svend Kold at Willesley Equine Clinic, in Gloucestershire. Not sure where you are based I did a 4hr journey for my horse to be operated on by him, he has masses of experience with this condition and is clever in the way he operates, also, he makes you crack on with getting the horse moving after surgery and then back in to work as quickly as possible as that give the best results for recovery. He has a good website and will give you an honest opinion so you can get the x-rays referred to him for his opinion.

I hope that helps, good luck and pm me if you need any more help, it is a very tough decision to make, my thoughts are with you, ned and owner!
 
I am in the exact same position as your friend. My horse was diagnosed with KS yesterday afternoon (although I suspected for a while but he had other issues that had to be dealt with first). Anyway, he was always a tricky ride, but in the last 5 months I noticed resistence when working. On and off he has been able to work very well, and ironically my instructor thinks he is so much better than he was this time last year. However xrays yesterday show that the spine in the lumbar region are very close - so he is off to Rossdales for scans (although there is a 3 week wait as they do not have the radioactive material needed for the scan). I am exploring every option because he is only 7 and he is my dressage horse. Most horses do have a degree of KS and because of the way the bones work, if there is just inpingement and you work the horse correctly hence opening the spine it is actually better than letting them hollow their backs and let the bones touch - does that make sense? That's why when working the horse correctly they can go soft and round their backs but ulitmately the muscles on either side of the back will brace against the riders weight to protect the spine which will result in severe spasms and therefore a horse that seems lame on his back legs. Also, there may be arthritic changes in the same spine.

It does depend on what you want to do with your horse. If I only had a month to go I would be exploring every option because once the cover runs out it will be very expensive. I have until May next year and I am annoyed at the 3 week wait!
 
CBAnglo - so sorry to hear of your recent bad news. We also got that call from Rossdales yesterday re the radioactive material, as the horse was meant to be going for head scan for something unrelated (don't ask - this poor horse has been through allsorts!)

I think that our problem is that this KS would never have been diagnosed if it wasn't for the rib, the horse works beautifully pretty much at all times, but if he is occasionally at all stiff (I think work related) the KS is always there and makes you wonder.

This horse is an eventer, not a world beater, but low level BE competitions / open unafiliated and is good at, and loves his job.

He works in the best way possible for a horse with KS as he is always soft in the hand and round in the back, such a lovely light ride and amazing to watch.....even though I know hos problems it still makes me envious to watch as I struggle to get my cob to work correctly!

It is just so confusing, as when we initially got it diagnosed we were told that horses worse than that could work with no discomfort, but on the other hand, others looking better on the x-rays have been very lame.
 
It does depend on the horse and the pain threshold. Mine is not lame at all (was slightly short on one hind leg but that has disappeared) and is fine out hacking in walk with a bit of trot. Canter will be an issue as KS is in the lumbar region. I already have one light hack so need something that I can do more on but if he can only be a light hack then so be it.

In fact I was told by the first 2 vets that he was just being a git - he was always a tricky ride but I noticed that he was holding back a bit in the school. Also, if anything, he stopped rearing and bucking and he didnt nap so badly - my instructor said he went better than before and he was really swinging his back and stretching his topline.

I have had him 2 years and in that time I have been through all the teenage tantrums so I know what he is like when it is a tantrum - this was different. He was working well but almost as though he was concentrating on protecting himself and therefore wasnt cheeky. Third vet said there was something wrong. He developed severe muscle spasms when I stopped riding him for 3 weeks. He had electric wave treatment which got rid of the spasms. I rode him - still the same. Got a chiro out who released some more of the tension and suddenly he was back to normal. Then 3 weeks later back to protecting himself. xray yesterday confirmed that spine very close together in lumbar region - because that area is so dense needs scan at rossdales. He has been moved to the top of the list as the vet thinks his case is very serious. I have been lucky that he has not done anything to me in the last 2 months that I have had to put him through his paces which confirms what I have always felt about him - difficult horse to ride but genuine.

Lots of competition horses have KS untreated and do well. They will have off days where the muscles have spasmed and they cant be ridden. But they also need to be kept in constant work - I found that my boy was worse after I stopped riding him.

I also noticed that once I started bringing him back into work his topline became very one sided - I am a saddle fitter so I take regular templates of my horses. I adjusted his saddle to take into account the muscle wastage and worked him correctly - after 2 weeks the good side had developed but the bad side was worse which showed me that there was something wrong with the way he was working behind even if that was not evident in the ridden work. Sometimes it is difficult to notice if a horse is slightly off - I can usually tell from their back if they are not straight.
 
With this horse Canter has always been his easiest pace, and he's not naughty or lame which is also confusing!

We will see tomorrow if he works "better" (considering no lameness / issues and working nocely anyway) once his back has been blocked. Of this is the case he will be a candidate for surgery and they will have to get him in PDQ before insurance runs out!
 
It really will depend on which spine is impinging. My horse has it in the lumbar region. When I did a bute trial he went beautifully - we all thought arthritic changes then. xray yesterday suggests KS but could be combined with arthritic changes.

I was told a minimum of 3 weeks for the liquid - maybe she should ring her insurance company and check but may be cutting it fine timewise?

It is difficult without scintography - unfortuantely Norway are not co-operating!
 
Yes very difficult, we are wondering whether the insurance company would give an extension due to these circumstances. The vets are going to contact them to see...
 
I'm glad this post got posted as its the sort of thing I want to know! I'm in the process of waiting to see what the vet wants to do and how physio is going, there is talk of me being able to ride at the end of this month but we shall see...just trying to build up topline (which had diminished to nothing!!) ... flaming KS!!
 
Hi Holly

Seems like we are in the same boat after all!

I have 6 months left on my insurance - I am not going to wait around and then have to do the op at the last minute. I trust my vet and he wouldnt say do the op if it wasnt needed. He thought his case serious enough to be moved to the head of the queue so I am taking that as a sign that surgery is in the near future. I have tried electric wave treatment which relieved the symptoms for a couple of weeks but then he was back to tightness in the back and spasms in the lumbar region so in my case I dont think the pallative option is going to work.

It really only seems to be an issue for competition horses because more is being asked from them and they are in hard work. Once you stop riding them though I think you will find they deteriorate very quickly. My boy's topline melted away and he went from an XW to a M (the narrowest he has ever been) after 6 weeks off ridden work. He is now hugely one sided which he never was before in the 2 years that I have owned him.
 
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I have tried electric wave treatment which relieved the symptoms for a couple of weeks but then he was back to tightness in the back and spasms in the lumbar region so in my case I dont think the pallative option is going to work.

It really only seems to be an issue for competition horses because more is being asked from them and they are in hard work. Once you stop riding them though I think you will find they deteriorate very quickly. My boy's topline melted away and he went from an XW to a M (the narrowest he has ever been) after 6 weeks off ridden work. He is now hugely one sided which he never was before in the 2 years that I have owned him.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of these things have happened to the horse I am talking about, and he has been out of work on and off since the rib op in November!
 
Insurance is my main concern too i have until june (bit of a piss take as insurance messed me around!)....are 7 vertebra a lot? a few on the outer side werent as bad as those in the middle....will finally meet my physio on the 15th (was on holiday~perfect timing bridie!) and chat to her about what she thinks etc.....too much going on right now and she seems a lot happier!
 
Maybe it depends on where the impingement is? My boy has it in the lumbar region - the thoracic region is all clear.

What really made me think is that over the last 3 months his mouth has been dry after work. Usually he would chomp on the bit and really relax his jaw and his mouth would be frothy. Now it is bone dry - I dont believe he has been relaxed when ridden and has held himself against me even though he was working well. Teeth are done every 6 months so not a problem and I do his saddle which is checked everytime I tack up. When I saw the severe muscle spasms which sort of appeared overnight I knew he had a back problem. Some horses can work through it, and I know my boy went like a dream on bute but I dont want that as a long term solution if there is anything else that can be done.
 
Fingers crossed for all our horses! I just want Bridie to be comfortable and be able to perform they way i know she could
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This is all so interesting, my horse had his KS operation at the end of may so we are still in the rehab process and having a vet reassessment next week to see if he can have a saddle on / introduce ridden work.
What is particularly of interest to me is about the horse working well until a period of time off then the KS symptoms showing. My horse had been working beautifully last year until he injured his hock so had about a month in very light work then another week off while I was on holiday. When I came back he had developed an abnormal gait - problems in right canter - after months of tests he was diagnosed with KS and eventually we went for surgery as palliative route didn't make any difference.
I have often wondered at how / why this developed - my physio has previously suggested that while he was off work his back muscles would have deteriorated so he could no longer hold himself in a way to protect himself from the pain. Sounds like this could well be the case.
From reading about KS (there was an article in H&H this year) & discussing it with my vet, it does appear that many horses can have apparent KS conformation but work perfectly.

Good luck to all those currently going through KS diagnosis, treatment, from experience I know how hard it can be.
 
My 7yr was diagnosed with KS a few weeks ago, however my vet and physio both disagree with operating on the condition, arguing removing bone can weaken the structure of the back and lead to arthritis in surrounding joints, causing more problems than it solves.

Therefore, my horse is being treated with various physio massage, pessoaing and cortizone injections. I have been told this will either work or it won't.
Even if my horse is made more comfortable surely this must be a degenerative condition that will worsen with age and eventually end his career?
Does anyone have any experience of horse competing at a reasonably high level with KS?
If this treatment does not work I may have to face the prospect of putting him down as he will never be a happy hacker.
Without meaning to sound heartless, basically if my horse cannot have a competive career I cannot warrant keeping him alive, should I ever have to make that dreadful decision.

I have very little experience or knowledge of KS so if anyone has any experience of controlling the condition in a competition horse I would be very grateful for any advice?
 
Just a quickie, I have a post op horse and would without a shadow of a doubt recommend it. If your horse is fit and well apart from the obvious and is at a reasonable age to have the op then I would go for it, you could spend months messing around with injections etc for them to be ok for a couple of months and then you will be back to square one, why put the horse through that when you could do the op and rehab as a one off.
 
That was my first instinct, remove the problem.
However, my vet and physio have persuded me that it is only a short term solution that will no doubt solve the problem in the short term but cause more troubles in the future.

Additionally, my horse has at the moment, only a small degree of calsification on one vertebrae which is definately not enough at present to warrant removing bits that cannot be put back again.
 
LouB, my physio has treated a horse with kissing spines that events at high level (3* or 4* can't remember), it didn't have surgery but is maintained with steroid injections and physio.
However the steroid injections & physio made no difference to my horse so the only option really was to go for surgery.
 
Yes - this is exactly what happened to my horse.

However, he has always been a difficult ride, and I am not sure how much of that was related to KS. Interestingly, he turned 7 this year, and this seems to be the common age for diagnosing KS - seems to be a lot of 6 or 7 year olds with it right now. And it always seems to be the competition horses.

I let my horse go down a bit this year as I could not keep up the exericse with riding 2. My second horse had been off work last year, so I only had the 1 to ride so he was being kept very fit. Once I let him go down I noticed that he was a bit stiff warming up on the left rein - this was previously his best rein. I thought perhaps his muscles were adjusting and definitely his topline had gone down a bit. He started being more difficult in the school so I only hacked him for a bit - thought perhaps he was bored. Then he became difficult and sometimes dangerous to hack. I let him have a week off (I was injured by then anyway) and then I noticed his back muscles were a bit stiff and he was short in one hind. I had a vet out to look at him - she couldnt find anything wrong and suggested bute to see if he had improved etc. Wasted 6 weeks on this vet - she was constantly on holiday etc etc and called in another vet who instantly saw the locked back and he was treated with electric wave treatment which made the muscles more loose but ridden wise still the same. I was only lightly hacking him at the point. Then had chiro and saw major difference. Then 2 weeks later severe muscle spasms again.

When he was in hard work and had built up the muscles to support the affected spine he was ok - but when I let him go down his muscles werent strong enough so he had to brace his back against the rider's weight = severe muscle spasms. Pallative care wont work - just spent £1,000 to prove that. I could bute him and work him through it but that effectively is the end of his career. So for me the only option is surgery and I have already wasted 5 months and now have to wait another month for the scan. Arthritic changes are likely to occur because obviously the bone is moving and jarring together - so it is not correct to say that arthritis will occur if you do have the surgery. It is very common to have KS and arthritic changes at the same time.

also, I believe that it differs depending on which bone is affected - lots of horses with KS in the thoracic region seem to be ok. My horse has his in the lumbar region and that means that he would not be able to support the riders weight without some level of pain and then I would just have to see what he could handle with and without bute.
 
Personally, I am hoping we may be able to control the KS without taking drastic surgery at present. Especially as the severity of it at the moment is mild. I want to try everything possible before going down that final route.

Interesting that many horses being diagnosed are 6/7. I am wondering if in my horse's case it has only come to light at this age due to the increased workload and pressure I am putting on him. Before most naughtiness was put down to the fact he is was a 'baby' and by Mayhill, well known for their difficultness and quirks.

My vet has warned me that if we are able to manage the condition, the horse must be kept in work to maintain the muscles that support the back structure. Any time off will result in us going back to square one, god knows what will happen if he, like most horses has to have any 'holiday'!
 
I think it depends on where you are with the treatment program and what your horse can cope with. Once mine was out of work for 3 weeks, he was virtually impossible to bring back into work, and he started favouring one side which meant his back muscles have developed unevenly. Also, I could feel him struggling and it was disheartening to push a horse in the school when I knew it was from pain and not naughtiness.

I perhaps worked him too hard when he was 5. The school was rather deep and he was a big fat baby who hadnt done anything before - just lived as a pet in a field. I also had a trainer who was meant to be riding him 30 mins a day. I found out (later) that she had been lunging him for an hour and riding him for an hour every other day. This went on for about 2 months behind my back. He seemed to go through stages of being difficult and being an angel - these were genuine teenage tantrums I think. I only noticed the change this year, when he was rising 7, and at first I thought it was because we had moved yards but it became clear to me he was uncomfortable in April so I gave him 3 weeks off work and it has been downhill ever since.

I have been investigating this since April and I am scheduled to go to Rossdales at the end of September. You only have 12 months from the date of discovery to claim on your insurance so I cant really afford to wait 6 months to see if constant work and physio will help him, and whether the impingement will become more severe. The operation itself is about £3k and then you have to factor in all the other costs.
 
This is an interesting thread. Fortunately I have never had to cope with anything like this.

I wonder if there is any research on the previous history of horses with KS, ie. what is regarded as the cause.
 
QR!

Hi all! CBAnglo has dragged me in here to inspire you all - whether I will succeed or not I have no idea!
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I think if you want completed success stories then you are better off doing a search on KS on here and reading through the experiences of BethH and Ouija_Board and their boys!
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We have a 10yo TB who was diagnosed with KS in May, after scintigraphy and subsequent x-rays. He was operated on 27/6/08, having T13,15 and 17 removed. We've had a few problems with the wound getting infected and then Rage being allergic to the antibiotics, so we are 7 weeks behind schedule. BUT, on the whole he is doing well and is walking out for 40-45mins a day (in hand) at the moment without complaint
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Looking forwards to starting the lunge work and are aiming to have his '12 week' reassessment at the beginning of December
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In answer to the OP - Rage worked VERY nicely before diagnosis. My only complaints were that I couldn't keep him soft and 'through' in the canter to trot transitions. His diagnosis arose after investigation into a very mild hindlimb lameness in his RH, which was so slight even the vet couldn't see it initially (3 work ups later....
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). In hindsight, there are a few things which would point to KS (slightly cold backed to get on, reluctant to lunge to the left etc... but nothing more strange than you would expect from an ex-race horse turned ex-polo pony
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) I am now more vigilant about spotting physical issues rather than behavioural ones, but the line is so blurry sometimes
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orangehorse - Svend Kold is of the opinion that KS originates from areas of interspinous ligament desmopathy (disease/damage to the ligament), which is why so many ex-racers (flat in particular, having been put under so much physical stress so early) suffer from KS. He is in the process of compiling a retrospective report on 200 backs that he has operated on. I am looking forward to seeing what the common factors are!
 
Thanks Bounty, everyone has been really helpful with all of their experiences, but you are the first one to truly answer my question.

We took my friend's horse to Rossdales yesterday but were not able to nerve block the back as he was having a good day. They took more x-rays and looked again at the old x-ray and bone scan taken previously and the vet has recommended surgery, just removing 2.

We have brought him home and are going to have him nerve blocked here on a bad day so he now needs to be worked a little harder. Owner is unsure whether she wants to go down the surgery route. Such a difficult decision and one which needs making so fast in order to get the insurance to cover it!

Thank you so much for your help everyone
 
Can I just say, to back up Bounty's comments that you need to speak to a surgeon who carries out this type of operation regularly and ask the questions that you have raised on here, that is the only way to really put your mind at rest.

I asked the question about weakening the back structure and causing long term issues with the spine and I was advised that the bone taken off is surplus to requirements. I don't understand how a vet and physio can suggest it will weaken the back and cause issues to other joints, you are not interfering with joints, it is just a bit of surplus end of a bone that is interfering with the general movement of the other bones nearby and so by removing a bit of it, it resolves the issue. I think it is easy to to make suggestions of causing other issues but they don't own the horse and mine would not still be alive if I hadn't operated. He is not only alive and well with an incredibly strong back, he has been rehab'd very correctly and slowly and by taking our time we have a horse that is being ridden 5 days a week and having the life of riley, I accept he isn't a top competition horse but saying that he never could have been with the KS and has more chance now than pre-op.

Sorry to be blunt but I know so many people that have been put off by others worrying them and they have made decisions not based on accurate facts, I even know several horses PTS because their owners just didn't understand, one a beautiful 6yr old that deserved a chance, that makes me really sad. I feel you should go to the experts and make your decision from that, whatever you decide will be the right thing for your horse and I wish you the very best of luck.
 
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