Can I cry pls?

1st vet visit she had a slight temperature, but it's been normal for ages now, heart and resps good, liver fine, bloods normal, only indicate an inflamatory response, protein electropherisis should have indicated if it was cancer... Nothing abnormal there!! All I know for sure is that high levels of cortisol cause proteins in muscle to breakdown, hence she has rapid muscle wastage, high cortisol can be as a result of cushings or a stress reaction but my idea is to treat the cortisol regardless of cushings results because if I can get it down then that should stop it attacking the muscles????!!! Sound reasonable? I mean I know I have to identify the cause, but it surely gives her half a chance?!
 
Queenbee said:
Thank you guys, snowdrop thats great thank you! I know if it's gs I have no way of knowing re field, it won't mean I won't hate myself though :( ps yes we have thought of that which is why we have been talking about possible next steps of 3 days dext, followed by prednisolone for a month.
I hate work, we debated a scope but decided that gastroguard would be the best course of action because if she had stomach ulcers we would see an improvement, and hind gut can't be scoped anyway. She was on bute in the first week with no
Major difference although to be honest I gave her a dose tonight because she has been tucked up for days... Could just be how she looks now without her muscle, but thought id see how she feels tomorrow after a night on bute! With regards to Horspital she won't survive there... I can absolutely say that her best bet is to stay where she is with Ben, this isn't arrogance, she'd break her heart and she's never been great to stable, she is only relaxed when he is with her :(
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i think they can now scope the hind gut. Think mine had it done today but not sure. Not that it would make any difference if you dont want to put her through it (trust me i know where your coming from) but mine is dreadful to stable and stresses to the point of jumping out or hurting herself so the vets have agreed to keep her sedated for the entire duration of her stay. A big ask i know but there is no way i would have left her there without them promising to keep her sedated.
 
Hi Queenbee,

Sorry to hear no improvement; it really doesn't sound like grass sickness. You and the vet would know......she would have been very depressed when she first contracted it and continue to be so, looked colicky, then stayed that way. She would be shaking and sweating with a high heart rate and standing like a laminitic horse, feet tucked underneath like she was on a ball. Nose would be running and the mucus very tacky, peeing very yellow and the gut really would be compromised....very little poo or gut sounds. It's a while now since Gully had it, but I remember how clear the symptoms were - I diagnosed it ahead of the vet and I hadn't seen it before. You can read the account I wrote for the EGS fund here http://www.grasssickness.org.uk/uploads/documents/Gulliver EGS account 08.pdf as it fully describes the symptoms, so might be of some help.

Of course you can't rule out a variant of it, though I would be surprised; GS is a disease of the sympathetic nervous system as a whole, most affecting the gut and the sufferers lose weight as the gut simply isn't functioning, i.e. pushing food along the digestive tract for absorption to take place. With your horse, it seems that she can get it through the gut, but doesn't take nutrition from it for whatever reason.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about worrying over the paddocks you have had her on - even if it were GS, you wouldn't know. I still have my two graze the same paddock as where Gully was when he caught it - I actually have a feeling it was the hay we fed that caused the problem, as it came from a GS hotspot, but I will never know and won't castigate myself for it.

Chin up - the main thing is she is happy in herself - never give up on an animal until they tell you repeatedly that they aren't happy. If I had given up on Gully, purely because of vet advice (he was continuing to lose weight, but was happier in himself) and the way he looked, he wouldn't be here now. Instead I judged what to do based on his demeanour. Hugs.

PS - did you try the Aloe vera juice, actimel drinks and pulping the feed as I suggested - might just help get extra calories in her. Probiotics could help if the gut flora is imbalanced.
 
There is a hedgerow plant that she chomps at every opportunity, tall green, large flat leaves, very succulent, can't remember what it is but I know there are 2 that look similar, one is good and the other bad, I was trying to remember what it is??!! Anyone have any ideas?! If not I'll take a photo tomorrow. I know if I hear the name I'll know it. Yes I could sen off for some samples, bless her, people keep suggesting this feed and that, but don't seem to get how quickly she goes off them. She started on a bag of fast fibre when she completely refused her old feed, she ate a bag in under a week, so I got 3 more, within the next week shed gone off it! It's so hard :( she wolfed down baileys top line mix and mollichaff today, but if it has a bit of fast fibre (tried to sneak some in) she refuses! I tried bananas... Eurgh! I'm going to get another mix or two, I think, I would shove anything down her neck if she'd bleeding eat it!

Will go on a willow hunt, are we talking the entire branch? Or leaves or what? And eggs cooked I assume??

Pookie: (((hugs))) for you and your cat x
 
They love willow - will mainly eat the leaves, but also young stems too - I have masses of it, would post you some if I could! Have you tried putting vegetable oil into her feeds? Lots of calories for her.
 
Poots, Thank you, yes I know she isnt displaying classic gs, but that's why I was asking... Thinking we may be dealing with a milder variant or something possibly?! Clutching at straws I suppose but you do don't you as time goes on :( she's on aloe juice, I won't syringe feed her... I just cant :( she isn't having probs swallowing ( although she does have the odd cough) its more a loss of appetite, she gets bored with the taste, her feed is varied, at the mo she has:
Sugar beet
High protein pellets
Fast fibre
Bailey tl mix
Mollichaff original
Haemavite b plus
Aloe juice
Probiotic (proteinex
 
Damn phone!
Since onset!!!
Gastroguard (just ending)

She's on soaked feed when she will eat it, but she now wants chaff And baileys tl mix and nothing else!!! So that's what she will have.

I tried the gs people today but haven't heard from them :(
 
Pookie: all bloods are normal, lymphocytes?! Very slightly raised.. Indicate body fighting something, 1 protein level raised indicating inflamation, cortisol raised, indicating either cushings or gs or stress reaction, everything else normal!!! So bloody frustrating :(
 
I'm so, so sorry to read this. :( I had hoped she was picking up.

I have no experience or advice to offer. Just saying I'm thinking of you and your beautiful girl and still hoping for the best. xxxx
 
Have you tried grass nuts, soaked until sloppy so they are easy to eat. I had forgotten about these for years and when we started buying them again I was shocked at just how well they go down. I have to soak them because we have a couple that are prone to choke, and we feed them with sugarbeet and readigrass instead of chaff. Just a thought, you would be able to get all your supplements in too.
 
Queenbee said:
Pookie: all bloods are normal, lymphocytes?! Very slightly raised.. Indicate body fighting something, 1 protein level raised indicating inflamation, cortisol raised, indicating either cushings or gs or stress reaction, everything else normal!!! So bloody frustrating :(
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And yet no diarrhoea? That rules a fair few things out. I'm sure answers to my questions have been posted in other threads so forgive me for asking again - has IBD been ruled out? Has she had an ultrasound?
 
Pookie, yes, she had oil last week... But didn't like her food with it in! She has never been fussy it's so frustrating!!! Have managed to sneak about 1 small bottle down her neck though and every little helps! I have a lane about 5 mins walk away, gypsy
Lane (can you guess who live up there?) actually they are a lovely bunch of settled gypsies and I know if I go up and chat they will cut me a load of willow, the chap up there had a 30yr old cob and I caught him going off to rug it up 2 months ago! ;) x
 
I can understand the straw clutching, don't worry, but as I said, I would hesitate to say that there could be a milder variant without it being a different syndrome all together.

On the positive side, lets really hope it isn't anything to do with GS, as the outlook really wouldn't be good!

I know you want answers, as would I. Must be very frustrating. I can understand you not wanting to syringe feed too, though don't rule it out as a last resort.

The question is obviously why isn't she absorbing her food, but usually has some appetite, albeit for various things. We need the equine version of Dr House around here!

I'm wracking my brain for ideas.....have you tried contacting David Marlin who used to be based at the Animal Health trust - he is now an independent researcher and has his own range of supplements and has some interest in ulcers - he might be helpful. I did my degree dissertation with him and he is a nice guy. His website is http://www.sciencesupplements.co.uk/ and they have a 'ask a question' form. Maybe another longshot, but he might have some ideas?
 
I think the GS fund have had a change of staff recently - Joyce who manned the phones and was so helpful has retired - I'm not sure what the crack is now. I'm sure the new nurse would be willing to speak with you though, when she is available.

With all of her symptoms, I would have had a stab at liver disease, but then liver enzymes would show up in the bloods, which you say are normal. Stumped. More hugs.
 
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I'm so sorry to hear Ebony hasn't improved. I've been following your story on here for a while.

No idea what to suggest as far as treatment etc but don't know if maybe coolstance copra might help you? It's great for putting on weight and seems to be really tasty, it certainly hides the taste of all the nasty supplements I give my lad so may be worth a try. It fluffs up when wet so has a similar consistency to sugar beet so is easy to eat.

Really hope she improves soon. Xx
 
Rhino no we haven't, vet reckons that she would be in great pain and therefore sweating if this level of inflamation were the case, but I will chat again with him about it, infact I'm with another vet from the same practice whose tested for two things the other vet said weren't probable so... You never know!

Fi; thank you my love will give ebony big Fiona hug from u x

Pooks: no, no diarrhoea, quite the opposite, she was always a cow pat type of girl! Now her poo looks like its coming out of a tiny pony the pellets are so small! She does about 4 poos overnight and 1 or 2 during day if in, about 3 if out, and they are hard, so she is exhibiting some form of constipation,

Poots: thank you for that I will contact him, I need as many brains as possible!

I have seriously been considering creating some sort of Facebook page in the last few days with her diary, blood results, all observations, her symptoms just do not seem to fit anything I can find properly... I thought that may be a chance of finding someone who had a horse with the same symptoms and a diagnosis.

I feel bad because I just looked at carrot and spud pics to compare her and it made me feel a tiny bit better :( :(
 
Keeping everything crossed for you, just wanted to say when my girl was ill I contacted every feed company and just explained that she would only eat something once so could they please send as many samples of anything that they could. I ended up with a pile of small bags of mixes, nuts, chaff, grass within a week or so - they were so helpful. Each day I could just offer her a handful of something, and if she ate it then I gave her the rest of that. Next day would be something different, and so on.

I was also on a lovely diy yard where everyone had different feeds, and we used to take all the lids off the bins (with permission of course) and let her in to wander round the feed room choosing what she fancied.
 
Queenbee said:
Rhino no we haven't, vet reckons that she would be in great pain and therefore sweating if this level of inflamation were the case, but I will chat again with him about it, infact I'm with another vet from the same practice whose tested for two things the other vet said weren't probable so... You never know!
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It may be worth a try, I've seen a couple tap 'toxic' that weren't in acute discomfort.

((Hugs)) anyway, fingers crossed for some good news soon x
 
Biker chick: I was considering copra a couple of days ago... Hard to get down here but years ago I bought a pallet of it when I had 6 horses to feed, some of them rescues, I know it's wonderful stuff, problem is she won't stay eating anything for very long, I'm buying some barley tomorrow to add to the mix, but I'd probably make it half way through the copra and be left with half a bag, also I remember that it took her a while to get used to the taste of it, when she's picky to begin with I doubt she will eat it :(

AS thank you hunny, in fact thank you everyone your suggestions are great keep them coming pls! X

Does anyone think a fb page would be barking mad or a waste of time?
 
Queenbee said:
Pooks: no, no diarrhoea, quite the opposite, she was always a cow pat type of girl! Now her poo looks like its coming out of a tiny pony the pellets are so small! She does about 4 poos overnight and 1 or 2 during day if in, about 3 if out, and they are hard, so she is exhibiting some form of constipation
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What's her water intake like?
 
Right, willow nettle and gorse hunt tomorrow, convo with vet, talk about tap and bloods were sent off on Saturday!!! Possible Facebook page creation, chat with poots dissertation chappie... Well email him, call gs people again, call every feed company under the sun and go and raid cornwall farmers, they always have samples too!! Busy day tomorrow now! Thank you all! You've scraped me up off the floor of self loathing and pity ( you and a bottle of wine) xxxxx
 
Pooks: it was slightly raised for a couple of weeks, she was on one of the large tub trugs (not the huuuuge ones) the ones that take about 4 buckets, and drinking a little less than 2/3 rds which was more than Ben was drinking and normally he drinks more than her and she would only drink about 1/2 max in past, but in the last week that's dropped to more
Normal levels, but to be honest her drinking and urinating were pretty ok. On the possible cushings front she is still moulting?! But other than weight loss that's the only real symptom, sure her cortisol is high but it dropped a bit after the surpression test leaving the lab confused?!
 
Queenbee said:
There is a hedgerow plant that she chomps at every opportunity, tall green, large flat leaves, very succulent, can't remember what it is but I know there are 2 that look similar, one is good and the other bad, I was trying to remember what it is??!! Anyone have any ideas?! If not I'll take a photo tomorrow. I know if I hear the name I'll know it. Yes I could sen off for some samples, bless her, people keep suggesting this feed and that, but don't seem to get how quickly she goes off them. She started on a bag of fast fibre when she completely refused her old feed, she ate a bag in under a week, so I got 3 more, within the next week shed gone off it! It's so hard :( she wolfed down baileys top line mix and mollichaff today, but if it has a bit of fast fibre (tried to sneak some in) she refuses! I tried bananas... Eurgh! I'm going to get another mix or two, I think, I would shove anything down her neck if she'd bleeding eat it!

Will go on a willow hunt, are we talking the entire branch? Or leaves or what? And eggs cooked I assume??

Pookie: (((hugs))) for you and your cat x
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So sorry to read this, have no experience of gs so not able to help, just wanted to give you a hug.

The hedgerow plant you are thinking of is Hedge Parsley, the bad one that looks similar is Hemlock.
 
Queenbee said:
Pooks: it was slightly raised for a couple of weeks, she was on one of the large tub trugs (not the huuuuge ones) the ones that take about 4 buckets, and drinking a little less than 2/3 rds which was more than Ben was drinking and normally he drinks more than her and she would only drink about 1/2 max in past, but in the last week that's dropped to more
Normal levels, but to be honest her drinking and urinating were pretty ok. On the possible cushings front she is still moulting?! But other than weight loss that's the only real symptom, sure her cortisol is high but it dropped a bit after the surpression test leaving the lab confused?!
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And her enzyme levels are ok? Exocrine etc? Have her insulin levels been tested? Urine is normal colour and smell?

I'm not a vet by any means (humans are my thing) but the cortisol could easily be a red-herring.
 
QB I hope the barley helps, I'm afraid I can't think of anything else to suggest but would like to say that you're obviously a lovely owner since it's quite clear that you're doing absolutely everything you can for Ebony. X
 
Queenbee I have a bag of copra in the feed room, I can send you some if you want? I'm so sorry that she isn't picking up but am surprised she is as shiny as she is?
 
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