Can I use round up to kill grass safely?

[EMSPony]

Roundup is incredibly incredibly harmful full stop, it is carcinogenic. Please do not touch it with a barge pole.

Is it though? To be used once? For a small area? With the horse not let on for two weeks afterwards. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the stuff. I've gardened 'organically' (as in not certified but without artifical herbicides, pesticides or fertilizers) all my life. I'm not considering using this stuff lightly, I'm just trying to do what's best for my horse and work out a practical way to do it. But according to this article, eating steak and chips infront of the woodburner with a glass of wine is far more risky! https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-roundup-carcinogenic-monsanto-farmers-suing

 

[Burnttoast]

Is it though? To be used once? For a small area? With the horse not let on for two weeks afterwards. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the stuff. I've gardened 'organically' (as in not certified but without artifical herbicides, pesticides or fertilizers) all my life. I'm not considering using this stuff lightly, I'm just trying to do what's best for my horse and work out a practical way to do it. But according to this article, eating steak and chips infront of the woodburner with a glass of wine is far more risky! https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-roundup-carcinogenic-monsanto-farmers-suing

Just don't drink it or bathe in it and you'll probably be fine Most of the long-term risk to the public lies in residues in food but your horse isn't going to be eating any affected vegetation and I'm assuming you're not going to be doing either of the options I suggested.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Is it though? To be used once? For a small area? With the horse not let on for two weeks afterwards. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the stuff. I've gardened 'organically' (as in not certified but without artifical herbicides, pesticides or fertilizers) all my life. I'm not considering using this stuff lightly, I'm just trying to do what's best for my horse and work out a practical way to do it. But according to this article, eating steak and chips infront of the woodburner with a glass of wine is far more risky! https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-roundup-carcinogenic-monsanto-farmers-suing

Yes, it is beyond terrible and should not be legal. Here are some examples as to its impact:

- Highest rates of cancer occurring where the highest concentration of glyphosate is situated
-Dead zones in the ocean where glyphosate has travelled, as it depletes oxygen in the water
-Impacting the growth, behaviour and reproduction of insects and fish, thus impacting entire food chains

In terms of how it might affect your horse, it is water soluble, it will travel under the ground and into the roots of the surrounding living grass which your horses will eat. You could very well poison your horses.

I would put tarp over the grass, it should be dead in 2 months.

 

[Burnttoast]

In terms of how it might affect your horse, it is water soluble, it will travel under the ground and into the roots of the surrounding living grass which your horses will eat. You could very well poison your horses.

You would have to literally pour gallons onto the soil for there to be any danger of this happening. If it happened in normal use you would see a much wider kill zone than spray zone, and I've never seen that happen. I don't like herbicides and would never use selective herbicides, but for the OP's situation it would seem a reasonable solution.

 

[Xmas lucky]

Roundup dangerous to horse you can’t let a horse eat grass once sprayed regardless on how long it been on. They will ingested it and could cause a positioning. You have to keep it away from all animals my uncle is a farmer and they have to be careful not to use it around livestock . A lot of misinformation being spread by a certain poster op use a grazing muzzle .

 

[Burnttoast]

Roundup dangerous to horse you can’t let a horse eat grass once sprayed regardless on how long it been on. They will ingested it and could cause a positioning. You have to keep it away from all animals my uncle is a farmer and they have to be careful not to use it around livestock . A lot of misinformation being spread by a certain poster op use a grazing muzzle .

If you are referring to me, I have not suggested and would never suggest that anyone should let a horse eat sprayed vegetation, whatever the chemical used.

 

[EMSPony]

Yes, it is beyond terrible and should not be legal. Here are some examples as to its impact:

- Highest rates of cancer occurring where the highest concentration of glyphosate is situated
-Dead zones in the ocean where glyphosate has travelled, as it depletes oxygen in the water
-Impacting the growth, behaviour and reproduction of insects and fish, thus impacting entire food chains

In terms of how it might affect your horse, it is water soluble, it will travel under the ground and into the roots of the surrounding living grass which your horses will eat. You could very well poison your horses.

I would put tarp over the grass, it should be dead in 2 months.

Please cite your sources that suggest it travels underground into roots of surrounding living grass and potentially poison the other horses. I'm not sure how that could be the case given that people have used it to control weeds in a grazing paddock, whereas I'm exploring using it to destroy grass.

https://invasiveweedsolutions.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ROUNDUP-PROVANTAGE-PADDOCK.pdf

 

[Miss_Millie]

Please cite your sources that suggest it travels underground into roots of surrounding living grass and potentially poison the other horses. I'm not sure how that could be the case given that people have used it to control weeds in a grazing paddock, whereas I'm exploring using it to destroy grass.

https://invasiveweedsolutions.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ROUNDUP-PROVANTAGE-PADDOCK.pdf

https://deepgreenpermaculture.com/2...sate-roundup-herbicide-contamination-in-soil/

'Herbicides can end up in offsite locations, damaging or killing non-target plants when they are carried by spray drift through the air, or water runoff over the soil surface or by leaching through the soil into groundwater.

It is claimed that glyphosate binds to organic matter in the soil, so it has low soil mobility, and is not easily washed away and carried elsewhere. While this may be true of glyphosate on its own, most glyphosate herbicide formulations also contain a surfactant, which change its properties significantly.

Surfactants are like detergents, they reduce surface tension, improving the emulsifying, dispersing, spreading, wetting properties of liquids.

Surfactant compounds are combined with glyphosate to:

• Improve wetting of the leaf surface, making thee herbicide stick better to plant foliage, and reduce evaporation to prolong contact with droplets, since herbicides are absorbed in liquid form into the leaves.
• Produce smaller spray droplets which spread more uniformly onto plant surfaces
• Dissolve the wax cuticle on leaves to enhance foliar retention and penetration.
• Enhance the movement of herbicide from the leaf surface into the plant tissue to increases effectiveness, as surfactants are absorbed by the plant along with herbicides.

Glyphosate often contains a surfactant unless stated otherwise, and is usually polyoxyethyleneamine or polyethoxylated tallow amine (both abbreviated POEA), or polyether modified polysiloxane (polysiloxane surfactant).

Studies indicate that the surfactant POEA used in glyphosate formulations is much more toxic to animals than glyphosate itself, and both POEA and polysiloxane surfactants are highly toxic to fish and aquatic organisms, and have high soil mobility, readily contaminating waterways.

Herbicide sprays containing surfactants produce much smaller droplets, which are more prone to spray drift which can be carried by the wind to offsite location onto non-target plants.

In agricultural fields, when glyphosate is sprayed on plant foliage, some of the spray lands on the soil surface. While it is claimed that glyphosate binds to soil particles, is quickly broken down by soil micro-organisms in a few days, and does not affect plants when applied to the soil, this is not what has been observed by researchers in field trials and contamination testing, and sounds more akin to green-washing and marketing spin than actual objective science.

What does the research show?

The addition of surfactants increases soil mobility of glyphosate by decreasing its ability to adhere to soil. This allows it to be washed away by rain and irrigation water into waterways, non-target areas, and deeper into the soil, where it resists breakdown, and is more prone to leaching.

The contamination of waterways has been identified as a route via which glyphosate is transferred to adjacent agricultural fields, especially when water is pumped from bodies of surface water (as opposed to underground water bores) to irrigate fields.

Another important source of glyphosate exposure is exudation from roots of living sprayed plants, glyphosate is translocated from the leaves into the roots and the surrounding soil. Glyphosate is also released from dead plants back into the soil. Recent studies do suggest that glyphosate rhizosphere transfer does in fact occur and presents a risk of glyphosate toxicity to non-target plants.'

 

[southerncomfort]

If you're dead set on using weedkiller I would strongly recommend paying a licensed professional rather than attempting to do it yourself.

They will be able to use the most appropriate chemicals and will do it safely, with no risk to you or your horses.

I still think medicating so that the horse has a good quality of life would be a better option, but it's your horse/land and your call. ?

 

[EMSPony]

https://deepgreenpermaculture.com/2...sate-roundup-herbicide-contamination-in-soil/

'Herbicides can end up in offsite locations, damaging or killing non-target plants when they are carried by spray drift through the air, or water runoff over the soil surface or by leaching through the soil into groundwater.

It is claimed that glyphosate binds to organic matter in the soil, so it has low soil mobility, and is not easily washed away and carried elsewhere. While this may be true of glyphosate on its own, most glyphosate herbicide formulations also contain a surfactant, which change its properties significantly.

Surfactants are like detergents, they reduce surface tension, improving the emulsifying, dispersing, spreading, wetting properties of liquids.

Surfactant compounds are combined with glyphosate to:

• Improve wetting of the leaf surface, making thee herbicide stick better to plant foliage, and reduce evaporation to prolong contact with droplets, since herbicides are absorbed in liquid form into the leaves.
• Produce smaller spray droplets which spread more uniformly onto plant surfaces
• Dissolve the wax cuticle on leaves to enhance foliar retention and penetration.
• Enhance the movement of herbicide from the leaf surface into the plant tissue to increases effectiveness, as surfactants are absorbed by the plant along with herbicides.

Glyphosate often contains a surfactant unless stated otherwise, and is usually polyoxyethyleneamine or polyethoxylated tallow amine (both abbreviated POEA), or polyether modified polysiloxane (polysiloxane surfactant).

Studies indicate that the surfactant POEA used in glyphosate formulations is much more toxic to animals than glyphosate itself, and both POEA and polysiloxane surfactants are highly toxic to fish and aquatic organisms, and have high soil mobility, readily contaminating waterways.

Herbicide sprays containing surfactants produce much smaller droplets, which are more prone to spray drift which can be carried by the wind to offsite location onto non-target plants.

In agricultural fields, when glyphosate is sprayed on plant foliage, some of the spray lands on the soil surface. While it is claimed that glyphosate binds to soil particles, is quickly broken down by soil micro-organisms in a few days, and does not affect plants when applied to the soil, this is not what has been observed by researchers in field trials and contamination testing, and sounds more akin to green-washing and marketing spin than actual objective science.

What does the research show?

The addition of surfactants increases soil mobility of glyphosate by decreasing its ability to adhere to soil. This allows it to be washed away by rain and irrigation water into waterways, non-target areas, and deeper into the soil, where it resists breakdown, and is more prone to leaching.

The contamination of waterways has been identified as a route via which glyphosate is transferred to adjacent agricultural fields, especially when water is pumped from bodies of surface water (as opposed to underground water bores) to irrigate fields.

Another important source of glyphosate exposure is exudation from roots of living sprayed plants, glyphosate is translocated from the leaves into the roots and the surrounding soil. Glyphosate is also released from dead plants back into the soil. Recent studies do suggest that glyphosate rhizosphere transfer does in fact occur and presents a risk of glyphosate toxicity to non-target plants.'

I think you'll find something on the internet to support any point of view https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44988-5#Sec10

I don't believe that article mentions the possibility of poisoning grazing animals.

 

[Polos Mum]

I would consider burning because I'm cautious and wouldn't forgive myself if I inadvertently poisoned my horse.

They burn the heather on the moors around here all the time - very controlled

I'd recommend some advice from an expert - but you could do exactly the area you wanted - it would take a good year or two to recover (UK vegetation is not used to burning unlike SA or Auz)

 

[EMSPony]

If you're dead set on using weedkiller I would strongly recommend paying a licensed professional rather than attempting to do it yourself.

They will be able to use the most appropriate chemicals and will do it safely, with no risk to you or your horses.

I still think medicating so that the horse has a good quality of life would be a better option, but it's your horse/land and your call. ?

If my vet had wanted to give the horse metformin we'd have done it. She was happy to hold off as horse is improving on diet alone. As already mentioned I'll discuss it with vet and farrier as to best way forward. I'll also speak to the local agricultural merchant. I was speaking yesterday to someone who sprays the weeds around (not in) a lady's chicken run and has done for years. He couldn't see any problem with it at all. Seems like you ask 10 different people and you'll get 10 different opinions.

 

[pistolpete]

Is the pony in work? Could the other horses go in the bare patch with her for some of the day then on her own after work with soaked hay several times a day. They’ll always defer to hay over working hard for scraps of grazing so trickle feeding lower sugar forage would be my choice. And lots of long walks.

 

[PurBee]

The truth about glyphosate with endless studies is known, here’s a taster:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/

The main trouble is, glyphosate is also registered as an antimicrobial…..it kills beneficial gut bacteria…in humans, fish, frogs, mice etc.

Once you’ve disrupted gut bacteria…gut dysbiosis, ANY species is on the road of ill health. The foundation of health rests in a healthy gut bacterial population and healthy food (preferably not laced in agri-chemicals)

The study linked above, references many other studies. The tip of the iceberg really. This would be a monsterous post if i included all studies showing concerning effects of glyphosate, on mammals.
The study shows that the downstream effects of killing off beneficial gut bacteria causes severe health conditions, nutritional deficiencies, kidney/liver issues, reproductive, neurological, endocrine Etc.

The effect on pancreatic function should be especially noted, as metabolic horses are usually fed straw, which is from grain crops mostly dried/desiccated with roundup, unless stated organic.
Topspec topchopzero straw feed confirmed to me they dont test their straw for glyphosate and advised me not to use their product if i wanted a guaranteed glyphosate-free straw feed.
Ironic that a metabolic horse be fed a product that impairs its metabolism due to the agri-chemicals its laced with!

The half life of glyphosate can be up to 22 years, depending on soil ph and soil composition. Dont believe the marketing BS regarding agri-chemicals.
Currently they’ve (monsanto) moved into India, promising loads more money to poor indian farmers if they use their chemicals. Theyre subsidising the farmers providing seeds and chemicals just like the marketing job done on EU farmers!
The Indian farmers are so blind-sided and ignorant what the chemicals are, the literally refer to them as ‘plant medicine’. They have no idea the health epidemic they’re embarking on, as they are at the beginning of a chemical farming journey developed countries have been travelling for decades now, and have studied deeply the ravaging effects on health of soil bacteria/plant reproduction/wild animal life/human health.


Spend a few years researching agri-chemical studies and you’ll switch to organic as much as possible.
The fact that organic animal feed/hay is VERY difficult to source, shows how much these chemicals are used in the industry.

Some farmers are ignorant what organic even means…theyll advertise organic hay….as happened to me last year, only for me to ask/confirm, “no weedkillers used at all?” And he said, “only just a bit on the licker for the rushes”….i.e glyphosate!

As you want to use it to kill off grass…id only do that if covering the grass in a topping of hardcore layer rolled compact or membrane/sand. Then the area is permanently killed off and covered.
But there’s no need to use it for that, as you could scalp mow with a flail mower, membrane and topping.
If you leave it bare after spraying youll get weeds growing in there this season. So you’ll need to keep spot spraying.

Because this is a presumably a smaller confined area for your metabolic horse, normally an area in a field you spray, a horse with other healthy grass to eat will avoid the sprayed area. But as this is the whole area, and a horse put on it, it’ll be forced to nibble here and there as there’s nothing else to eat.

The route i’d choose for a metabolic horse to try to see if i can normalise its metabolism again is ALL organic feed, no soy hulls/wheat chaff/straw anywhere near its lips….graze out on low growth/bare-ish paddock with muzzle on, for movement/company, and a broad-spectrum probiotic/prebiotic for gut health.

 

[EMSPony]

It's fine, it's sorted, I've just worked it out. I'll just electric tape off the muck heap and area around it with the lush grass that other horses won't eat and will be too much for her. The rest of the paddock is super short stuff already anyway and I can strip graze it hard for her, giving her a tiny bit that the boys have eaten right down first.. I don't know why I didn't think of it before.

 

[southerncomfort]

If my vet had wanted to give the horse metformin we'd have done it. She was happy to hold off as horse is improving on diet alone. As already mentioned I'll discuss it with vet and farrier as to best way forward. I'll also speak to the local agricultural merchant. I was speaking yesterday to someone who sprays the weeds around (not in) a lady's chicken run and has done for years. He couldn't see any problem with it at all. Seems like you ask 10 different people and you'll get 10 different opinions.

As I said, it's your call. I was trying to help. No need to be rude.

 

[abb123]

Chemistry scientist here..

I know you have said that you won't use it but I just wanted to add a bit of science to the discussion.

It is horrible stuff. If we were to use it in the lab it would have to be in a fume cupboard wearing full PPE and it would have to go for specialist disposal.

Using small amounts in dilute concentrations may seem like it wont do much harm but the problem is that it hangs around in the environment and builds up and even small amounts can do quite a bit of damage to the general ecosystem. It might be ok if you used a little bit but everyone thinks that way and then over decades of use you end up with a decimated local environment.

It really should be an absolute last resort. There are so many better options. It really shouldn't be available for public use.

 

[EMSPony]

As I said, it's your call. I was trying to help. No need to be rude.

Quote: I still think medicating so that the horse has a good quality of life would be a better option, but it's your horse/land and your call. ?



I wasn't being rude - I was clarifying that the horse wasn't on Metformin because the vet felt we didn't need it - not because I was deliberately witholding something that could improve her quality of life. I've no problem with giving her any medication if the vet thinks it necessary.

 

[Lois Lame]

If you are referring to me, I have not suggested and would never suggest that anyone should let a horse eat sprayed vegetation, whatever the chemical used.

But to say what you said earlier ...

Just don't drink it or bathe in it and you'll probably be fine...

... is disappointing to read. I've heard this attitude so often over decades.

 

[GSD Woman]

I think the OP has come up with a workable solution. I was going to suggest to mow it as short as possible and then go over it with a weed torch. The torch isn't permanent but you could use it when needed. I've used it on wire grass to overplant clover.

 

[Mule]

For the posters saying it will poison the op's horse, it won't. It's been thoroughly tested and used by farmers and horse keepers for decades. If it was poisonous to livestock, it would never have been on the market. Whatever the potential health/ environmental damage it may cause, (I have no doubt there are some) it doesn't poison horses.