can welsh ponies be dun?

[darcip]

my registered purebred welsh section a is dun, He has all the markings of a dun but I’ve seen somewhere else that apparently welsh don’t carry the dun gene. Is it possible for him to be dun? His mum is Grey and his dad is Palomino

 

[darcip]

my registered purebred welsh section a is dun, He has all the markings of a dun but I’ve seen somewhere else that apparently welsh don’t carry the dun gene. Is it possible for him to be dun? His mum is Grey and his dad is Palomino

His passport also says he’s dun

 

[FinnishLapphund]

As I understand it, traditionally in many breeds horses/ponies which are actually buckskins have been called duns, because people didn't knew that horses can sometimes look confusingly similar to real duns, without carrying the true dun gene. The true dun gene has been bred out of most Welsh lines, however, buckskins are caused by the same cream dilution gene which produces palominos.
Since your pony's dad is palomino, I presume that your pony is actually a buckskin, but his passport still says dun, because some persons continues to hold on to the old habit of that if it looks like a dun, and buckskins have always been called duns, dun it is.

 

[Snowfilly]

There is a bit of dun in the Welsh but terribly rare and getting rarer.

There’s also hundreds of buckskins (single cream dilute on bay) registered as dun, which it often mimics.

Given that you know there’s a 50 / 50 chance of cream from the palomino side, I’d say yours is buckskin looking at the odds.

 

[darcip]

As I understand it, traditionally in many breeds horses/ponies which are actually buckskins have been called duns, because people didn't knew that horses can sometimes look confusingly similar to real duns, without carrying the true dun gene. The true dun gene has been bred out of most Welsh lines, however, buckskins are caused by the same cream dilution gene which produces palominos.
Since your pony's dad is palomino, I presume that your pony is actually a buckskin, but his passport still says dun, because some persons continues to hold on to the old habit of that if it looks like a dun, and buckskins have always been called duns, dun it is.

okay thank you

 

[katastrophykat]

I have buckskin Sec A’s but there are a few true duns still knocking about- mostly D’s rather than A’s, have you colour tested? From the breeding, I’d expect to find buckskin, to grey out, and the greying might show up in markings similar to dun barring on legs.

 

[Gloi]

If his mum is grey you would need to know what colour she was born and what was in her pedigree to see if she actually was dun. Otherwise the likelihood is buckskin from the sire's creme gene.
Post a photo and people will be able to tell her colour.

 

[marmalade76]

As I understand it, traditionally in many breeds horses/ponies which are actually buckskins have been called duns, because people didn't knew that horses can sometimes look confusingly similar to real duns, without carrying the true dun gene. The true dun gene has been bred out of most Welsh lines, however, buckskins are caused by the same cream dilution gene which produces palominos.
Since your pony's dad is palomino, I presume that your pony is actually a buckskin, but his passport still says dun, because some persons continues to hold on to the old habit of that if it looks like a dun, and buckskins have always been called duns, dun it is.

They were called dun long before we knew about genes, let alone how to test for them.

 

[darcip]

If his mum is grey you would need to know what colour she was born and what was in her pedigree to see if she actually was dun. Otherwise the likelihood is buckskin from the sire's creme gene.
Post a photo and people will be able to tell her colour.

I'm not in contact with the people who sold him to me but I have his mum's pedigree and most of they are grey and chestnuts

 

[darcip]

I have buckskin Sec A’s but there are a few true duns still knocking about- mostly D’s rather than A’s, have you colour tested? From the breeding, I’d expect to find buckskin, to grey out, and the greying might show up in markings similar to dun barring on legs.

I haven't. how would I colour test?

 

[MatHalTed]

I think true dun is in the breed from what I can remember, however very rare and only in certain lines. Your boy is most likely a buckskin, aka bay with a cream gene.

 

[Caol Ila]

Does he have a dorsal stripe or any other primitive markings like leg barring or shoulder barring? My understanding is that the dun gene usually throws those markings while buckskin doesn’t.

The primitive markings are really visible on him in this photo.

 

[darcip]

Does he have a dorsal stripe or any other primitive markings like leg barring or shoulder barring? My understanding is that the dun gene usually throws those markings while buckskin doesn’t.

He has a dorsal stripe, dark legs, dark face just doesn't have the leg barrings

 

[shortstuff99]

That can also be caused by ND1 on a buckskin. A picture would be best to determine

 

[Caol Ila]

That can also be caused by ND1 on a buckskin. A picture would be best to determine

Yeah, the primitive markings on my nd1 horse are a lot fuzzier.

 

[darcip]

That can also be caused by ND1 on a buckskin. A picture would be best to determine

What is Nd1?

 

[darcip]

Trying to post one but it says file is too large

He's my profile picture if that helps

 

[Cortez]

They were called dun long before we knew about genes, let alone how to test for them.

The word dun comes from the Irish gaelic donn, which means a dusty brown colour. Buckskin is an american term.

Irish has a very rich and subtle vocabulary for colours, braccan is another which means a reddish brown (bracken, geddit?).

ETA I continue to be happy to call anything that looks dun, dun. The niceties of genetic colour terminology are only really relevant if you're breeding for colour.

 

[marmalade76]

The word dun comes from the Irish gaelic donn, which means a dusty brown colour. Buckskin is an american term.

Irish has a very rich and subtle vocabulary for colours, braccan is another which means a reddish brown (bracken, geddit?).

ETA I continue to be happy to call anything that looks dun, dun. The niceties of genetic colour terminology are only really relevant if you're breeding for colour.

So if the Irish want to continue calling their "buckskin" connies dun, who is anyone to stop them? The name was given to describe appearance to the eye, not genes, so I'd like to know who decided that the name "dun" belonged to those with added stripes and the name "buckskin" belonged to dilute bays. And speaking of bays, I've now had two with dorsal stripes and leg bars, no one has ever told me that "they're dun, not bay!"

 

[Cortez]

So if the Irish want to continue calling their "buckskin" connies dun, who is anyone to stop them? The name was given to describe appearance to the eye, not genes, so I'd like to know who decided that the name "dun" belonged to those with added stripes and the name "buckskin" belonged to dilute bays. And speaking of bays, I've now had two with dorsal stripes and leg bars, no one has ever told me that "they're dun, not bay!"

Quite a lot of dun, or as geneticists would have it "buckskin", Connemaras have leg and wither stripes BTW, and I've had a bay PRE with them too.

 

[marmalade76]

Quite a lot of dun, or as geneticists would have it "buckskin", Connemaras have leg and wither stripes BTW, and I've had a bay PRE with them too.

Mine have been an arab and a polo pony imported from Argentina, probably part bred Criollo.

 

[dorsetladette]

The colour 'Dun' is allowed within the WPCS registration criteria.

So, in answer to your question on a black and white level - yes welsh ponies can be 'Dun' .

I don't under stand the whole colour/genetics thing. But i had a beautiful dun welsh pony as a child.

 

[shortstuff99]

The reason dun and buckskin became separate is the genetics behind the colours (and therefore breeding them) is completely different. A bay horse with a cream gene will be buckskin. You need a dun gene to make a dun.

 

[shortstuff99]

What is Nd1?

Non dun 1, it is a gene that creates primitive markings but not dun.

 

[shortstuff99]

Quite a lot of dun, or as geneticists would have it "buckskin", Connemaras have leg and wither stripes BTW, and I've had a bay PRE with them too.

Non dun 1 is prolific in PREs which creates primitive markings without being dun.

 

[criso]

The reason dun and buckskin became separate is the genetics behind the colours (and therefore breeding them) is completely different. A bay horse with a cream gene will be buckskin. You need a dun gene to make a dun.

And if you have base colours other than bay, they will look very different. A bay dun and buckskin will look similar but a red dun is nothing like a palomino and a grulla not like a smokey black.

Our knowledge changes as more is discovered about the underlying genetics.

 

[Nudibranch]

Don't know about genetics but I have a Sec A who is dun in appearance. He has dark legs and muzzle and a dorsal stripe. I'm expecting him to grey out some time as his face is a bit roan and most of his breeding is grey but there is one in one line recorded as dun.

Anyway, whether they're dun or buckskin, they're certainly pretty!

 

[darcip]

Don't know about genetics but I have a Sec A who is dun in appearance. He has dark legs and muzzle and a dorsal stripe. I'm expecting him to grey out some time as his face is a bit roan and most of his breeding is grey but there is one in one line recorded as dun.

Anyway, whether they're dun or buckskin, they're certainly pretty!

Thats the same as mine, his dad's side is mostly pal and his mums is grey. He's only 1 year old aswell so could change alot

 

[criso]

Just to throw something else into the mix, it's unlikely but not impossible that he has both a dun and a cream gene.

I think in Welshies, it's quite important that eventually colours get recorded correctly. Palominos and Buckskins are quite popular with actual duns quite rare. With a lot of grey hiding the original colour, it would be useful for anyone breeding who wants dun to be able to see where it is present in a line

 

[darcip]

That can also be caused by ND1 on a buckskin. A picture would be best to determine