can welsh ponies be dun?
- Thread starter darcip
- Start date
ponynutz
Well-Known Member
Thank you both!
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
no she isnt. shes buckskin with sooty.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
This is her bay dun foal which was the result 
First Frost
Well-Known Member
This is my genetically tested sooty buckskin. He is a choclate dun on his Irish passport. Everyone recognises him as a chcoclate dun so that is generallyt what he is called!!! 
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Why are people so proud to use the wrong terminology? It seems to be really common. I don't get it. And I certainly wouldn't recognise a sooty buckskin as chocolate dun, because chocolate dun isn't a colour and there is nothing about any of the chocolate duns posted that looks remotely dun.
First Frost
Well-Known Member
We aren't 'proud' to use the incorrect terminology, it's what is the normal term in ireland as explained by Cortex. I know and understand that my horse is genetically a sooty buckskin and sometimes explain that to people who are interested, but most people understand the term chocolate dun and know what to expect when they see one.
Cloball
Well-Known Member
Can't find the stud page for the Welsh c but here is a dun Welsh a stallion 
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
It's common because all horses of a lighter colour coat with black points were called dun in the past. Some of those were buckskins but that wasn't much relevant to anyone except a breeder and people keen to show they knew the US term for dun.. Those buckskins were still a dun, just as taupe is still a brown even though it also has a name of its own.
Breeders then wanted to be sure to breed a particular colour, or as sure as it can be, so they needed to know the genetics which created it, and then with the advances of science were able to identify that the visually similar buckskin was genetically quite different.
At that point, instead of finding a new word for genetic dun, the generic term for "lighter coat with dark points" colouration was effectively hijacked. And now people are harangued when they use a term to describe a general colouration which has been used for centuries.
I once bought, and later sold, a "mouse dun" Shetland. Everyone concerned with those transactions was perfectly happy that we all knew what we were talking about, and outside of those with strong interests in the genetics, that situation still applies. Nobody is proud of using "the wrong terminology", they're using a centuries old description that everyone still understands.
The little man in question
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splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Why are you getting so annoyed about what colour other people say their horses are… many years ago everything that was that sort of colour was called dun. I had never heard the term buckskin until recently and we used to call different shades with a colour in front of the word dun, like yellow dun, cream dun, chocolate dun just to clarify if describing the horse ..
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I'm not annoyed. I'm perplexed. We used to use all sorts of terminology that we don't anymore. Times change. But its more that people are proud of using the wrong colours and I don't understand it.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
Why find a new word for dun? The word wasn't hijacked, it was just being used for 2 to describe 2 different things.
I think some people feel it's an unwanted us influence replacing the word dun but it's not really
Both UK and US are using the word dun for that gene and the bay dun colouring so makes sense to keep those in line however in the US they had another word for the cream/bay combo.
When people became aware here there was a difference, that's where a new word was useful and given in the US were already using Buckskin, no reason to create another word.
Mouse dun (black dun or grulla) is correct and common in Highlands who have a lot of dun.
Also red or chestnut dun as in Cloball's example.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Because there are times when the owners of a lighter coloured horse with darker points would need a DNA analysis to answer the question "what colour is your pony?". Also because some of the gentically dun ponies wouldn't have been described as dun, having lighter or same colour points as the body. Dun was, and is still for the moment though dying out, a useful cover all for people who simply don't need to know the genetics.
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stangs
Well-Known Member
Presuming you mean Bryncerdin Merlyn? She was advertising him as the only "black dun"/"true dun" C stud in the world.
You won't be able to find the stud page because the stud closed after going very downhill. He was for sale, separate to the mares and foals, for a while in Jan, not seen any information about him since.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
There are subtle differences to differentiate dun and buckskin, people on this thread have clearly identified from photos which horses are.
I assume by genetically dun you mean the chestnut and black dun versions. Highland ponies use dun for these variations with no problem so makes sense to align with this rather than start using a new term that no one else uses.
Dun as a term is not so much dying out but outside a few breeds, duns are much less common than cream dilution genes and I would argue that using the terms interchangeably makes this worse as duns are not identified accurately on passports and more difficult to select for breeding.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Was he dun though? He looks smoky black.(Black plus creme)
There is a Welsh silver and dun group on Facebook with some interesting ponies.
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criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
Looks black dun/grullo. As cream does not affect black hair, smoky blacks tend to look black.
Looking at the breeding (which could be wrong) dam is listed as red du. No picture but would not be confused with palomino if it was cream
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I know a couple of smokey blacks that exact colour, nearly bought one of them. There's a certain look to the coat (and eyes if you are close enough)
stangs
Well-Known Member
Don’t think a smokey black could have a dorsal stripe like he does?
Were these Icelandics? I know smokey black tends to present differently in them to other breeds.
suestowford
Well-Known Member
I have a pony this colour and on this thread are four different names for the same colour! Grulla, mouse dun, blue dun and black dun. I would have described him as mouse dun, but on his passport it says blue dun. Although during the 3 weeks of his summer coat he is almost pink. It's no wonder people get confused.
I've really tried, with genetics, but it all goes whooshing right over my head.
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
Don't know if these pictures are any help for those maybe wanting to compare, a Grullo coloured Quarter stallion Twhizter, DNA tested Double Homozygous EE aa DD, no cream = he is homozygous (2 identical alleles/genes) black, and homozygous dun factor.
I also included the second photo because in it, it is more visible that the dorsal stripe extends down into the tail, instead of being a countershading which turns into a more uniformly coloured dark tail.
But perhaps I'm just adding more fuel to the confusion
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Yes
Clovercr58
Member
Passported as Chocolate Dun and as all horse do changes colour with coats but we think it’s a good description of her colouring. This photo might give a better idea.
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shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Yes looks genetically buckskin in this picture.
Clovercr58
Member
It’s very interesting. I always went off the passport description and didn’t give it much thought to be honest
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
If you're not breeding then it doesn't really matter but if you're a genetics nerd (like me) then you can get quite into the specifics
Love
Well-Known Member
My connie came to me at 4 already grey but I have a feeling he was buckskin (and possibly with nd1 after reading this thread? he certainly had what looked like a dorsal stripe for a while) before greying out.
He went through some very lovely colours from dark dapple grey to rose grey and now getting more flea-bitten every year
Is it expensive to have them tested? would be purely for my own curiosity...
4 years old (let’s ignore my questionable techniques with the baby pony… teenage naivety at its finest for you!
)
Rose grey phase
Now at 17 and very flea bitten!
He went through some very lovely colours from dark dapple grey to rose grey and now getting more flea-bitten every year
Is it expensive to have them tested? would be purely for my own curiosity...
4 years old (let’s ignore my questionable techniques with the baby pony… teenage naivety at its finest for you!
)Rose grey phase
Now at 17 and very flea bitten!
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Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I had my pony tested , included all colours though that wasn't the reason. It was about £80 six years ago. Not sure what it costs now.My connie came to me at 4 already grey but I have a feeling he was buckskin (and possibly with nd1 after reading this thread? he certainly had what looked like a dorsal stripe for a while) before greying out.
He went through some very lovely colours from dark dapple grey to rose grey and now getting more flea-bitten every year
Is it expensive to have them tested? would be purely for my own curiosity...
suestowford
Well-Known Member
Mine has the stripe running all along the neck, back & in the tail but when he's rolling and I can get a good long look at his underneath, the stripe seems to be there on his belly also. Fainter, but still there. It's as if he's got a seam all the way aroundI also included the second photo because in it, it is more visible that the dorsal stripe extends down into the tail, instead of being a countershading which turns into a more uniformly coloured dark tail.
But perhaps I'm just adding more fuel to the confusion
