Can you believe it .............

[louiseandsadie]

When was the first reported case in the UK?

What are the figures for identified cases in 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023.

Circa 1980 appears to be the first reported cases in the literature.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ry-public-health-disease-surveillance-reports You can see here the published figures between 2022 - 2023. We are waiting on the figures for the last quarter of last year, but if it continues in line with the previous quarter it will be around 220 - 230. These are largely sero-positive cases, not confirmed through culture.

There are some isolated reports prior to this point, particularly in the years immediately preceding 2022.

 

[skinnydipper]

Circa 1980 appears to be the first reported cases in the literature.

First detected in the UK in 2002. I have been doing some homework

 

[Goldie's mum]

Don't have a dog in this fight (sorry!) but here is a scientific article , peer reviewed...

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/22221751.2023.2249126#:~:text=Licensing-,ABSTRACT,In%20humans%2C%20B.

 

[BlueDiamond]

Hi BlueDiamond, welcome to the forum! Interesting first post!

In case you might think I am thick or something, I actually have been reading and writing for a living for over 20 years, and am reading in my spare time, a collection of academic essays (which the authors have kindly put into paragraphs), but unfortunately large blocks of text make my brain itch and are an instant turn-off, so it doesn't really matter how interesting/informative the content is.
Like I say, my father was personally involved in the fight against bovine brucellosis for many years and observed the work of veterinarians and I will be interested to hear what he has to say on the subject

I notice your mate hasn't denied using Chat GTP, or maybe she has and my brain/eyes were too boggled to read it. I do see there are bullet points and paragraphs on some of the posts now which is a lot easier for people like me to read, particularly on a phone/smaller device, it looks a lot better on a desktop PC.

Hi CorvusCorax to be fair I do agree that it is more difficult to read large blocks of text but not a good enough excuse not to read It.

Having done a bit more research on this I happened to listen to a podcast on Veterinary Ramblings on Brucella Canis I believe it was actually an owner who used Chat GTP as her results in writing stated positive where the result in numbers clearly showed a negative.
That dog was booked in to be pts and would have been if the owner hadn’t questioned it. The APHA revised the result to negative but the laboratory and the Vet had missed it.
It will be interesting to hear what your father has to say, unfortunately bovine brucellosis was treated with the cull policy as the animals were considered to be of low value. I suspect he will be very much still be the opinion that may be the best way to treat this but then again I might be doing him a disservice.
I also listened to another podcast on Veterinary Ramblings Dr Alick Simmons who was also instrumental in the brucellosis testing of cattle which is well worth a listen.

 

[BlueDiamond]

I can confirm you are incorrect.

Next.

Can you confirm that that person is you?

 

[skinnydipper]

I can confirm you are incorrect.

Next.

Not me, though.

 

[Clodagh]

Can you confirm that that person is you?

It’s not SD, no.

 

[skinnydipper]

It’s not SD, no.

I think we should just let them work it out, it all adds to the fun.

 

[AmyMay]

I think we should just let them work it out, it all adds to the fun.

It’s also up to the poster if they want to divulge the information to a new member.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Hi there,
I think your key starting point really for the concern that you have there in relation to it not being as dangerous as thought, would be to read the HAIRS report 2023 link that I’ve shared in one of my other posts. That is the government risk assessment based on the current evidence base that we have for BC. That report was finalised in roughly July 20 23 and so is relatively up to date. That’s partly based on worldwide information and also partly based on epidemiological data collected within the UK since we started to become aware of BC.

The main thing I'm taking away from that report is that the risk ratings are low/very low and that this is contextualised with huge gaps in the evidence and a lot that we don't know, which isn't massively reassuring. I would be concerned about increase in risk as further evidence is gathered and as number of cases increase.

 

[skinnydipper]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ry-public-health-disease-surveillance-reports You can see here the published figures between 2022 - 2023. We are waiting on the figures for the last quarter of last year, but if it continues in line with the previous quarter it will be around 220 - 230. These are largely sero-positive cases, not confirmed through culture.

There are some isolated reports prior to this point, particularly in the years immediately preceding 2022.

Could you estimate what percentage of imported dogs are tested?

 

[Goldie's mum]

Can you confirm that that person is you?

There are many veterinary and other scientific professionals on this forum. You will mostly never know whether you are talking to the president of the RCVS or a 15 year old who just got their first puppy. That way you'll need to judge what they say, without fawning or prejudice. We find it works well. Welcome to the forum.


ETA I am not the president of the RCVS

 

[Goldenstar]

We are stupid in this country we have no need to take this risk .
I was tak

 

[louiseandsadie]

First detected in the UK in 2002. I have been doing some homework

Well done. But not well enough. Try again.

 

[Cortez]

Well done. But not well enough. Try again.

How condescending. I think I almost prefer the machine, at least it wasn't rude.

 

[skinnydipper]

Well done. But not well enough. Try again.

Is the BVA wrong?

"The disease was first detected in the UK in 2002, and there has since been a rapid rise in cases being identified"

 

[splashgirl45]

I have read most of this thread and feel that however small the risk of my dogs catching this , I don’t want infected dogs socialising with mine. I am also very against rescue dogs being imported to this country and feel that the load of money that is being generated by these foreign rescues should be used to set up neutering and PTS services in the countries who are overrun with dogs to stop the endless supply of cute puppies that people can’t resist buying , I say buying because this is what is happening. If you want a puppy and can’t get a rescue buy one from here not abroad…

 

[louiseandsadie]

Anyway, as i have previously it’s been lovely discussing this matter with some of you ladies and thank you for your interest in the topic. I now need to take care of other matters that doesn't involve playground trolling.

If anybody reading this has an overseas dog or knows somebody who has and would like to converse further with me, either to share your experiences, or because you’ve got concerns around testing, or have a positive dog please do get in touch. I don’t use Horse and Hound very much so it would be better to get in contact with me via a private message on my Facebook page Brucella Canis RVN. I also have a designated email: BrucellaCanisRVN@email.com We also have a support group for owners whose dogs have tested positive where you can meet other owners in a similar situation. Please do reach out if you feel that you need that support because everybody needs helping hand now and then and you’ll find a comparatively very friendly community of people that understand.

With that have a very good day everyone and I’ll bow out now.

Best wishes,

Louise

Ps. if anybody still feels that I should be reported to the RCVS then I supplied the link in my original post and as they are duty bound to investigate every complaint, you can rest assured that if there is a case to answer, for they will get in contact with me.

Pps. I know who the veterinary professional is but I will do you the courtesy of not outing the veterinary practice to avoid your embarrassment in front of your clients. There are advantages to heralding from that region.

Ppps. Yes, IF the British Veterinary Association (BVA) claimed this then they are wrong. This is why it always a good idea to try to go back to the primary sources.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Wow, 'nice'

 

[skinnydipper]

Pps. I know who the veterinary professional is but I will do you the courtesy of not outing the veterinary practice to avoid your embarrassment in front of your clients. There are advantages to heralding from that region.

Yep, with that comment I think it is a good idea if you do go and tend to your other important duties.

 

[Jenko109]

Wow.

Gobsmacked and rather disgusted.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Not an unexpected flounce from someone who was finding HHO AAD a harder nut to crack than the usual fawning groupies.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Ppps. Yes, IF the British Veterinary Association (BVA) claimed this then they are wrong. This is why it always a good idea to try to go back to the primary sources.

Ignoring the other stuff for a moment, presumably you have a primary source for your claim of the first case being in the 1980s so perhaps you could share that with us?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Anyway, as i have previously it’s been lovely discussing this matter with some of you ladies and thank you for your interest in the topic. I now need to take care of other matters that doesn't involve playground trolling.

If anybody reading this has an overseas dog or knows somebody who has and would like to converse further with me, either to share your experiences, or because you’ve got concerns around testing, or have a positive dog please do get in touch. I don’t use Horse and Hound very much so it would be better to get in contact with me via a private message on my Facebook page Brucella Canis RVN. I also have a designated email: BrucellaCanisRVN@email.com We also have a support group for owners whose dogs have tested positive where you can meet other owners in a similar situation. Please do reach out if you feel that you need that support because everybody needs helping hand now and then and you’ll find a comparatively very friendly community of people that understand.

With that have a very good day everyone and I’ll bow out now.

Best wishes,

Louise

Ps. if anybody still feels that I should be reported to the RCVS then I supplied the link in my original post and as they are duty bound to investigate every complaint, you can rest assured that if there is a case to answer, for they will get in contact with me.

Pps. I know who the veterinary professional is but I will do you the courtesy of not outing the veterinary practice to avoid your embarrassment in front of your clients. There are advantages to heralding from that region.

Ppps. Yes, IF the British Veterinary Association (BVA) claimed this then they are wrong. This is why it always a good idea to try to go back to the primary sources.

Well that was professional !

 

[Goldie's mum]

A person used to being "The One Who Knows" comes across some scientific reports & some people who think... never goes well!
Never mind I'm sure BlueDiamond will keep you informed what's going on.

 

[skinnydipper]

Ppps. Yes, IF the British Veterinary Association (BVA) claimed this

I used these little things " "

Like this

"As there may be no clinical signs, infected dogs can silently carry Brucella canis without detection when they are being transported into the UK. The disease was first detected in the UK in 2002, and there has since been a rapid rise in cases being identified."

Brucella canis

www.bva.co.uk

 

[skinnydipper]

deleted.

 

[Goldie's mum]

We are stupid in this country we have no need to take this risk .

This isn't currently a notifiable disease but there are strong guidelines that it is hoped that vets and dog importers will follow.
There are a lot of details in the article I linked to above but briefly :

Importing dogs​

To avoid B. canis introduction into the kennel, each new dog should be quarantined for 6 weeks before mixing with the other dogs (Table 5). A dog can be considered as non-infected only after two consecutive negative serological tests at least 6 weeks apart, during the quarantine period (Table 4). For now, it is recommended to test the serological status upon arrival of the animal and before the end of the quarantine period. If possible, tests performed before the movement of dog(s) (previous kennel) can be used only to follow the serological status but not to prove the negativity, since the infection can occur during the transport

Pet dogs that test positive
Until further advances, each serologically positive dog [LIKE BENNY] should be considered as a threat for further dissemination, until proven that the reaction was false positive (these conclusions could be supported by two consecutive negative results)
The isolation of suspected animals should be recommended, at least in endemic countries
Dogs in non-reproductive contact with an infected animal, i.e. those that share same social spaces, should be considered at risk of infection
After all biosecurity measures have been put in place to avoid the spread of infection, a detailed epidemiological investigation must be carried out to identify exposed persons, animals or facilities which need to be surveyed.

It isn't currently illegal to disregard these recommendations.

 

[spark56]

I personally will be following the science and listen to someone who has read the papers(large blocks of text) who has spent the last last year researching this, talking to Vets and scientists and more importantly dealing with people who are actually experiencing this with their dogs.
Than believe the rhetoric of someone who by their own admission can’t be bothered to read what has been written because they find it too difficult and have better things to do.

Difficulty reading solid blocks of text has nothing to do with intelligence or effort. One of the first things I teach scientists who are writing applications for research funding is how to present information on the page. This includes using paragraphs with white space around them and other techniques to make key information jump out.

These applications aren’t read by people lacking intelligence, but other (busy) scientists and they are more likely to give a favourable review if the information on the page is easily accessible.

I’ve heard ChatGPT can be quite good at making text more concise, if you give it enough instructions.

 

[DabDab]

I have been watching this unfold on the sidelines as I wasn’t a member and I couldn't comment.
I may be incorrect but from my observations it appears that they only person commenting on here that actually has a professional Veterinary background is Louiseandsadie.

As this person has been open about who she actually is I took the opportunity to check out her qualifications, she is a registered RVN as well as holding a PhD and has lectured veterinary professionals in evidence based veterinary practice.
Evidence based diagnosis is exactly what she is advocating here, she is for pre import testing and accepts that we need to mitigate the risks. What she is trying to do is stop dogs who have tested positive on a test that has a high risk of false positives being euthanised unnecessarily or denied Veterinary treatment. When the risk has been downgraded to low for Veterinary professionals and very low for the general population.

I personally will be following the science and listen to someone who has read the papers(large blocks of text) who has spent the last last year researching this, talking to Vets and scientists and more importantly dealing with people who are actually experiencing this with their dogs.
Than believe the rhetoric of someone who by their own admission can’t be bothered to read what has been written because they find it too difficult and have better things to do.

I checked her out too, as I was intrigued by the evidence (not a subject that I know much about), but like others I was struggling to sort the wheat from the chaff with her communication style on here (in terms of working out what was her opinion, what was anecdotal, and what was actually researched or based in scientific principles).

I gave up fairly quickly as couldn't find much in the way of substantive science. Perhaps because it is hard to prove a negative... I don't know. But I have to admit that I was surprised to see that louiseandsadie was essentially a professional student for 13 years, given their written commumication style on here, as it really is quite an inpenetrable block for someone with that level of education to have produced. Maybe she was just over-keen to get her point across, dunno.

And while I usually admire someone who has such devotion to a single cause that they have almost made it their life's work, I do struggle with this cause. Why not use your knowledge and contacts to campaign for better testing before entry, or for research into treatments, vaccines or cures, instead of trying to convince everyone that they are just overreacting to it? Just seems like an odd argument to prioritise.