Can you believe it .............

[AmyMay]

I checked her out too, as I was intrigued by the evidence (not a subject that I know much about), but like others I was struggling to sort the wheat from the chaff with her communication style on here (in terms of working out what was her opinion, what was anecdotal, and what was actually researched or based in scientific principles).

I gave up fairly quickly as couldn't find much in the way of substantive science. Perhaps because it is hard to prove a negative... I don't know. But I have to admit that I was surprised to see that louiseandsadie was essentially a professional student for 13 years, given their written commumication style on here, as it really is quite an inpenetrable block for someone with that level of education to have produced. Maybe she was just over-keen to get her point across, dunno.

And while I usually admire someone who has such devotion to a single cause that they have almost made it their life's work, I do struggle with this cause. Why not use your knowledge and contacts to campaign for better testing before entry, or for research into treatments, vaccines or cures, instead of trying to convince everyone that they are just overreacting to it? Just seems like an odd argument to prioritise.

Great post.

 

[Goldenstar]

On a similar but slightly different subject I was surprised when I picked up my wormers and tick treatment to be hold they where adding heart worm treatment to the mix because they have seen their first unexplained cases.

 

[misst]

Well as a non-vet and average owner I am concerned on two fronts. I have had a little Spanish rehome for about 7 years who was Leish tested but not BC as I was ignorant. I did not adopt directly he was in foster in this country having been rejected by his new family on arrival at Gatwick. I needed a new dog and he needed a home - foster lady had 4 dogs and he was very nervous and unsettled. He would have had to go to Battersea or similar so I took him. Foster mum was known to me.
I now wonder if I need to get him tested? Also I am worried about other rescues as we have lots and lots round here from Eastern Europe, Cyprus etc. What if they infect my dogs?
If there is a qualified vet on here prepared to PM me some basic advice I'd be grateful. I shall speak to my own vet as well next week when I take my other dog for her routine vaccinations.
I certainly would not want to put family friends and other dogs at risk but am devastated at the idea my little man could be infected.
Sorry to derail this thread.

 

[Widgeon]

Honestly this really is the forum at its petty, bitchy worst. What happened to rational, evidence based arguments? This is a really interesting thread but there's absolutely no way I'm getting involved.

 

[Clodagh]

Honestly this really is the forum at its petty, bitchy worst. What happened to rational, evidence based arguments? This is a really interesting thread but there's absolutely no way I'm getting involved.

But you just did!?

 

[Widgeon]

But you just did!?

No, I meant it would be an interesting discussion to have (in the sense of making points for and against different approaches), but the thread seems to be solely focused on pouring scorn on the vet nurse involved. I thought some of her points were very valid but I think if I tried to pull those out and discuss the evidence for and against her arguments, I would probably be ripped apart (metaphorically I mean, this isn't the XL Bullies thread). I just think it's a shame when threads descend like this because it removes the chance for what could be an interesting debate.

 

[BlueDiamond]

Not me, though

Well as a non-vet and average owner I am concerned on two fronts. I have had a little Spanish rehome for about 7 years who was Leish tested but not BC as I was ignorant. I did not adopt directly he was in foster in this country having been rejected by his new family on arrival at Gatwick. I needed a new dog and he needed a home - foster lady had 4 dogs and he was very nervous and unsettled. He would have had to go to Battersea or similar so I took him. Foster mum was known to me.
I now wonder if I need to get him tested? Also I am worried about other rescues as we have lots and lots round here from Eastern Europe, Cyprus etc. What if they infect my dogs?
If there is a qualified vet on here prepared to PM me some basic advice I'd be grateful. I shall speak to my own vet as well next week when I take my other dog for her routine vaccinations.
I certainly would not want to put family friends and other dogs at risk but am devastated at the idea my little man could be infected.
Sorry to derail this thread.

I would actually use the link that Louiseandsadie has supplied to ask any questions that you have.
Spain is actually considered one of the lower risk Countries and although some Vets are still requiring testing others have dropped Spain from their list as because of low prevalence the risk of false positives is higher.
if your dog has been in the Country for seven years he is unlikely to have a live infection which would mean he was infectious but could potentially test positive on the iELISA which shows either that he has been exposed to it at some point and mounted an immune response or he could be a false positive. Unfortunately the test doesn’t just measure Brucella Canis antibodies but can pick up antibodies from other pathogens like Salmonella or Ecoli, Leish has also been implicated in possible false positives although not proven.

 

[AmyMay]

No, I meant it would be an interesting discussion to have (in the sense of making points for and against different approaches), but the thread seems to be solely focused on pouring scorn on the vet nurse involved. I thought some of her points were very valid but I think if I tried to pull those out and discuss the evidence for and against her arguments, I would probably be ripped apart (metaphorically I mean, this isn't the XL Bullies thread). I just think it's a shame when threads descend like this because it removes the chance for what could be an interesting debate.

I’m really keen to know more about the subject, so totally agree that it would be an interesting discussion.

I simply couldn’t read all the ‘stuff’, so I’ve passed sadly.

 

[BlueDiamond]

Honestly this really is the forum at its petty, bitchy worst. What happened to rational, evidence based arguments? This is a really interesting thread but there's absolutely no way I'm getting involved.

I completely agree, rather than have an informed discussion there is almost a let’s poke the bear attitude for a bit of fun. Frankly I don’t see what’s funny about a dog potentially losing its life on the basis of a test which has been demonstrated to be wrong on numerous occasions.

 

[Redders]

I have just got home from an awful day so haven’t read any replies, and might not get to tomorrow either, when my brain is ready to read properly I’ll reply. But basically, I’m all for evidence, I know the testing isn’t perfect, I believe in being cautious, and I follow the advice from DEFRA currently as that is the current advice we are to give and it means that should anything arise from the advice I give, I know I am covered. I will happily follow the advice as they update it with new evidence

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I completely agree, rather than have an informed discussion there is almost a let’s poke the bear attitude for a bit of fun. Frankly I don’t see what’s funny about a dog potentially losing its life on the basis of a test which has been demonstrated to be wrong on numerous occasions.

I've asked a few times for some further references to be shared, to try to have an informed discussion. That is not 'bear poking'.

 

[skinnydipper]

And while I usually admire someone who has such devotion to a single cause that they have almost made it their life's work, I do struggle with this cause. Why not use your knowledge and contacts to campaign for better testing before entry, or for research into treatments, vaccines or cures, instead of trying to convince everyone that they are just overreacting to it? Just seems like an odd argument to prioritise.

The fact that she herself has a vanload of foreign rescue dogs might have something to do with it. (she invited people to visit her Facebook page)

 

[skinnydipper]

Frankly I don’t see what’s funny about a dog potentially losing its life on the basis of a test which has been demonstrated to be wrong on numerous occasions.

You think a dog would be put to sleep on the strength of one test?

This is a quote:

• A single serological test does not definitively confirm infection status. For most cases B canis testing should be by SAT and iELISA, 3 months after potential infection.
• If a dog tests positive with no clinical signs or history of direct exposure , this alone should not be used to decide on a route of treatment. Ideally, it should be isolated and retested in 4-6 weeks.

from here:

Brucella canis: what vets need to know

In this updated blog, Paula Boyden, Veterinary Director at Dogs Trust, discusses current reported cases of Brucella canis, and what vets in practice need to know.

www.bva.co.uk

 

[skinnydipper]

..

 

[BlueDiamond]

Thank you Skinnydipper for highlighting this.

This blog was published on the 14th of February 24 the author Paula Boydon seems to be calling for a more measured approach to dogs that test positive rather than the previous advice given to clients whose dogs tested positive on one test which was euthanasia.
There have been numerous cases where owners have been advised to pts their family dog on the basis of testing positive on one part of the APHA test only.

The majority of dogs are testing positive only on the iELISA which measures antibodies which can cross react with antibodies that are not Brucella Canis pushing the result over the threshold of 1.47.
Reading the information on the dog who started this thread Benny,he had been in this Country since a puppy and had lived happily as a member of the family for a few years without any signs or symptoms of Brucella Canis. His owner sadly was made homeless and she had no option other than to get him a place at a rescue centre, who would not take him without a test.

Again reading the post he tested positive on the iELISA with a sp value of 1.49 so 0.02 over the threshold.
Considering that the control group of dogs who were considered free of Brucella Canis and used to validate the test, tested up to a range of sp 1.6 he would very much fall into the possible false positive range.

This dog was scheduled to be euthanised on the basis of this one test.

 

[CorvusCorax]

The fact that she herself has a vanload of foreign rescue dogs might have something to do with it. (she invited people to visit her Facebook page)

Having seen first hand the way some of these (apparently traumatised/feral) foreign rescue dogs are transported and the lack of oversight on paperwork compared to the stringent checks on one or two pet dogs travelling in a vehicle on a normal pet passport, I'm surprised that some vets condone the practice.

 

[skinnydipper]

Having seen first hand the way some of these (apparently traumatised/feral) foreign rescue dogs are transported and the lack of oversight on paperwork compared to the stringent checks on one or two pet dogs travelling in a vehicle on a normal pet passport, I'm surprised that some vets condone the practice.

My feeling is that somebody in the veterinary profession should have more sense than to risk bringing diseases into this country, Brucella canis is only one.

 

[paisley]

Thank you Skinnydipper for highlighting this.

This blog was published on the 14th of February 24 the author Paula Boydon seems to be calling for a more measured approach to dogs that test positive rather than the previous advice given to clients whose dogs tested positive on one test which was euthanasia.
There have been numerous cases where owners have been advised to pts their family dog on the basis of testing positive on one part of the APHA test only.

The majority of dogs are testing positive only on the iELISA which measures antibodies which can cross react with antibodies that are not Brucella Canis pushing the result over the threshold of 1.47.
Reading the information on the dog who started this thread Benny,he had been in this Country since a puppy and had lived happily as a member of the family for a few years without any signs or symptoms of Brucella Canis. His owner sadly was made homeless and she had no option other than to get him a place at a rescue centre, who would not take him without a test.

Again reading the post he tested positive on the iELISA with a sp value of 1.49 so 0.02 over the threshold.
Considering that the control group of dogs who were considered free of Brucella Canis and used to validate the test, tested up to a range of sp 1.6 he would very much fall into the possible false positive range.

This dog was scheduled to be euthanised on the basis of this one test.

It’s surprising that the test was not repeated /reviewed and a confirmatory test requested given it was borderline on the the threshold value. This would indicate a need for more involved decision making rather than just blaming the test itself.

 

[misst]

Well I spoke to my vet as forgot Moti had his routine librella today! Just made it to the appt in time thanks to the alert on my phone. Note to self - get organised.

Conversation was really honest and helpful. They recommend testing for all dogs from abroad as they feel it is unhelpful for dogs from abroad to be subjected to "emergency" testing if they suddenly need OOH care or referral centre care. The OOH care my vet uses insists on SNAP tests now and these can give 1 in 10 false positives so can be unhelpful. My vet will continue to give full treatment regardless of positivity but obviously PPE will be needed for high risk situations.

She felt Moti is unlikely to test positive as he is from a low risk country and came as a puppy and was neutered young so unless his mum was positive he should be negative. They use the DEFRA guidelines for testing and I am going to get it done next month when he has his librella. The reasons for getting him tested are peace of mind for me, the vets and my family. Also reassurance for any time he need to go to a referral centre or OOH vets. He also goes to kennels once or twice a year and the vet wonders if they will start asking for testing certificates.

She said he would not automatically be needing PTS as asymptomatic, has been here for years and is neutered so likely not infectious but would of course talk me through the options if this was the case.

I have a long email with a lot of information which they have given me which I have found helpful and informative. I am happy to pass it on to anyone who is interested but not sure if I can put it on a public forum as it is for their clients and they have collated the information themselves.

So this forum is useful but has also just given me another vet bill!!!!

 

[misst]

I would actually use the link that Louiseandsadie has supplied to ask any questions that you have.
Spain is actually considered one of the lower risk Countries and although some Vets are still requiring testing others have dropped Spain from their list as because of low prevalence the risk of false positives is higher.
if your dog has been in the Country for seven years he is unlikely to have a live infection which would mean he was infectious but could potentially test positive on the iELISA which shows either that he has been exposed to it at some point and mounted an immune response or he could be a false positive. Unfortunately the test doesn’t just measure Brucella Canis antibodies but can pick up antibodies from other pathogens like Salmonella or Ecoli, Leish has also been implicated in possible false positives although not proven.

Thank you - as above I have spoken to my vet who I trust totally. They have done well by animals for many years. They have given similar advice to yours. I am going to get him tested for the reasons I have given above. My vets feel it is the sensible thing to do and will give everyone peace of mind and hopefully ensure no dramas if he needs kennels or emergency ooh treatment anytime.

 

[skinnydipper]

http://apha.defra.gov.uk/documents/surveillance/diseases/imported-dog-disease-for-dog-and-cats.pdf

 

[BlueDiamond]

Well I spoke to my vet as forgot Moti had his routine librella today! Just made it to the appt in time thanks to the alert on my phone. Note to self - get organised.

Conversation was really honest and helpful. They recommend testing for all dogs from abroad as they feel it is unhelpful for dogs from abroad to be subjected to "emergency" testing if they suddenly need OOH care or referral centre care. The OOH care my vet uses insists on SNAP tests now and these can give 1 in 10 false positives so can be unhelpful. My vet will continue to give full treatment regardless of positivity but obviously PPE will be needed for high risk situations.

She felt Moti is unlikely to test positive as he is from a low risk country and came as a puppy and was neutered young so unless his mum was positive he should be negative. They use the DEFRA guidelines for testing and I am going to get it done next month when he has his librella. The reasons for getting him tested are peace of mind for me, the vets and my family. Also reassurance for any time he need to go to a referral centre or OOH vets. He also goes to kennels once or twice a year and the vet wonders if they will start asking for testing certificates.

She said he would not automatically be needing PTS as asymptomatic, has been here for years and is neutered so likely not infectious but would of course talk me through the options if this was the case.

I have a long email with a lot of information which they have given me which I have found helpful and informative. I am happy to pass it on to anyone who is interested but not sure if I can put it on a public forum as it is for their clients and they have collated the information themselves.

So this forum is useful but has also just given me another vet bill!!!!

Misst it sounds like you have an excellent Vet and can feel confident going forward with their well thought out protocol.

Sadly some Vets are refusing to keep positive dogs on their books, other are offering care but with some restrictions and a few are still providing full care with extra PPE but it’s a lottery.

 

[Clodagh]

Misst it sounds like you have an excellent Vet and can feel confident going forward with their well thought out protocol.

Sadly some Vets are refusing to keep positive dogs on their books, other are offering care but with some restrictions and a few are still providing full care with extra PPE but it’s a lottery.

It is up to the practice, and for young women of child bearing age would you be wanting to risk it.

 

[YorksG]

Vets are not obliged to treat any animal, if they believe that they could be harmed in the process. Perhaps those advocating for bringing in foreign "rescue " animals, should be making "adopters " aware of the potential problems they will have getting treatment for these animals. It really is time we stopped this trade.

 

[misst]

It is up to the practice, and for young women of child bearing age would you be wanting to risk it.

My vet told me that if my dog tested positive any pregnant or child bearing age women who declined to treat it would be allowed to do so as they have male vets and older female vets so it would not be an issue. She did say it can be an issue in OOH which is one reason to test - in the hope of a negative - so that these questions are answered in advance of potential problems. She also said PPE would be needed for any surgery or certain examinations. I guess that would put the bill up. I want to get him tested, not because I think he's positive, but because it is probably the "right" thing to do and to make life easier with new vets/kennels etc. I would have no problem with a young female vet (or any vet) who felt unsafe to treat a dog with a potential disease. My vet was making the point that they will offer a full service to any dog testing positive but that other vets may not.

 

[splashgirl45]

Missy you are being very sensible and your vet has the same outlook… thanks to SD for the official info , much more helpful than pages and pages of stuff to read through . I must admit I gave up on the vet students post as it was so long winded …
It’s about time that this business disguised as rescue should stop, it people buying from abroad with all of the disease and temperament risks that entails rather than buying a dog from the UK because they like to feel they are “rescuing”. I admit I have tried to give a home to a rescue but not been successful so I bought a puppy each time , but nothing would persuade me to buy from abroad..

 

[misst]

I will not get another dog from abroad as it has been stressful at times. The Spanish rescue that arranged his failed adoption 7 or 8 years ago has never vetted my house or met me or even knows where he is living. He went to a foster home as an emergency after a facebook appeal. I knew the person and she persuaded me that he was exactly what I wanted Lol - male, puppy, small. I was looking for female, older, medium sized.... but I hadn't found one to rehome and he needed a home and was rather cute, so here he is and here he stays. But if I knew then what I knew now I would not have considered it and he does have multiple problems due to his dreadful start in life. As you can see he has a terrible life

 

[Clodagh]

My vet told me that if my dog tested positive any pregnant or child bearing age women who declined to treat it would be allowed to do so as they have male vets and older female vets so it would not be an issue. She did say it can be an issue in OOH which is one reason to test - in the hope of a negative - so that these questions are answered in advance of potential problems. She also said PPE would be needed for any surgery or certain examinations. I guess that would put the bill up. I want to get him tested, not because I think he's positive, but because it is probably the "right" thing to do and to make life easier with new vets/kennels etc. I would have no problem with a young female vet (or any vet) who felt unsafe to treat a dog with a potential disease. My vet was making the point that they will offer a full service to any dog testing positive but that other vets may not.

I wasn’t aiming my reply at you, more at BD who seems to feel vets should treat them at any risk to themselves.

 

[skinnydipper]

I think that is what seems to concern people with an infected dog. They seem to be more worried that they might not be able to access vet treatment than they are about having a dog with a zoonotic disease and a risk to other canines

 

[BlueDiamond]

It’s surprising that the test was not repeated /reviewed and a confirmatory test requested given it was borderline on the the threshold value. This would indicate a need for more involved decision making rather than just blaming the test itself.

My vet told me that if my dog tested positive any pregnant or child bearing age women who declined to treat it would be allowed to do so as they have male vets and older female vets so it would not be an issue. She did say it can be an issue in OOH which is one reason to test - in the hope of a negative - so that these questions are answered in advance of potential problems. She also said PPE would be needed for any surgery or certain examinations. I guess that would put the bill up. I want to get him tested, not because I think he's positive, but because it is probably the "right" thing to do and to make life easier with new vets/kennels etc. I would have no problem with a young female vet (or any vet) who felt unsafe to treat a dog with a potential disease. My vet was making the point that they will offer a full service to any dog testing positive but that other vets may not.

Your Vet sounds wonderful, you are very fortunate to have been able to discuss the situation with them and be assured of their continued support regardless of the test outcome.

Although at the moment there is no evidence that the Canis strain of Brucella can cause fertility issues in women of child bearing age, there is also no definitive evidence that it doesn’t.
Given that other types of brucellosis found in other groups of animals have been implicated in fertility issues it seems eminently sensible to give Veterinary staff who are of child bearing age the choice of whether to treat positive or suspected positive Brucella Canis dogs.