arwenplusone
Well-Known Member
As in over SJ fences?
Or is it just something they either are, or are not?
I think I may be coming to the conclusion that my current ned just isn't
Can you teach a horse to be 'careful'?
- Thread starter arwenplusone
- Start date
As in over SJ fences?
Or is it just something they either are, or are not?
I think I may be coming to the conclusion that my current ned just isn't
connie1288
Well-Known Member
Difficult one, I think that very few horses are careless naturally, sometimes there are other factors that mean they are not careful. And this comes from the girl with a horse that will have 4/5 down and 9 down on a bad day.
She is very aware of knocking them down, and does not like doing it, however, she will do if:
Her feet hurt, she simply will not jump high enough as the landing will hurt too much
If she/I get nervous and tight, she will still try and clear but is not the most talented over a fence.
99% of the time I feel she will try for me, however I know people have watched her jump and ridden her, and it both looks and feels as if she doesnt give a toss.
How many horses will boot fences out again and again if you loose school them?? v few from what I have seen, I think there lies your answer in a way?!
Will be interested to hear others views!
She is very aware of knocking them down, and does not like doing it, however, she will do if:
Her feet hurt, she simply will not jump high enough as the landing will hurt too much
If she/I get nervous and tight, she will still try and clear but is not the most talented over a fence.
99% of the time I feel she will try for me, however I know people have watched her jump and ridden her, and it both looks and feels as if she doesnt give a toss.
How many horses will boot fences out again and again if you loose school them?? v few from what I have seen, I think there lies your answer in a way?!
Will be interested to hear others views!
Sarah_Jane
Well-Known Member
You can teach technique and improve that but there def are some horses that don't worry regarding hitting a fence and these are difficult to teach otherwise.
lannerch
Well-Known Member
I agree with marymoo few horses are naturally careless although you can find some that are too lazy to bother too much to clear the fence.
The more they hit it the more they get sensitised to hitting it so the less they bother.
On the other hand horses can go through a careless stage because something is wrong e.g their canter is not established enough, they have a bad back, bad fitting tack, fear causing rushing, greeness etc the list goes on, and any one of these reasons if you rectify then the horse will usually become careful.
So in summary my answer to your question is it all depends!
The more they hit it the more they get sensitised to hitting it so the less they bother.
On the other hand horses can go through a careless stage because something is wrong e.g their canter is not established enough, they have a bad back, bad fitting tack, fear causing rushing, greeness etc the list goes on, and any one of these reasons if you rectify then the horse will usually become careful.
So in summary my answer to your question is it all depends!
kerilli
Well-Known Member
i think you can to a point, with certain exercises.
also, some trainers are good enough to spot that a certain horse needs to be ridden in a very specific way to get the best out of it, an then show you how to do this. this happened with 1 of my eventers, went from having poles to going clear nearly every time, due to fab trainer.
also, some trainers are good enough to spot that a certain horse needs to be ridden in a very specific way to get the best out of it, an then show you how to do this. this happened with 1 of my eventers, went from having poles to going clear nearly every time, due to fab trainer.
arwenplusone
Well-Known Member
Hmmm... My horse just doesn't seem to give a hoot when he whacks a fence.
He will jump carefully sometimes, and is better if there are spooky fillers but a lot of the time I feel that he just can't be arsed. He knocks them loose jumping as much as when I am on him. It also seems to be getting worse, not better.
Sometimes, I get him in too deep & obviously this is my fault & I recognise this completely, but other times he is just lazy.
For example, if I put up flimsy coloured plastic poles he will hit them.
If I put up the big wooden ones that weigh a tonne then he clears them.
Am working hard on his canter to be sure of rhythm and good approach, but am getting a bit down about it.
XC he is a total machine.
ofcourseyoucan
Well-Known Member
most are careful, some are clumsy, back to basics on flat and keeping them fresh, sharp and forward going. mares are useually more careful than geldings. for the repeated 4 faulters take the boots off so if they hit them it hurts?!lots of grid work, shortening, lenghtening. some are talented, most are willing to their own level. and they all have their own or their riders limit! otherwise we wuld all be doing the olympics!
glenruby
Well-Known Member
To a certain extent I think you can teach them. Sometimes riding a horse slightly differently/smartly can make them be more careful. i used to ride a lovely 14.2hh who had lots of scope but often had one fence down - didnt matter whether it was 90cm/1m/1m20. found the key to her was to squeeze gently on reins and with calves just as her forelegs had risen from the ground ( i suppose similar to a mild halfhalt just after takeoff) and you could actually feel her snap up her forelimbs. Once I learned that that was the key to her we only had one more fence down in competition after that.
Good schooling and lots of grids/polework will sort most horses out as long as they are within their comfort zone.
Ad then some are just downright careless.
Good schooling and lots of grids/polework will sort most horses out as long as they are within their comfort zone.
Ad then some are just downright careless.
flyingfeet
Well-Known Member
In a word. no
You cannot breed it and you cannot train it - some horses 'care' about poles and others couldn't give a toss
My full brothers with both nature and nurture the same, are totally different in this regard, one cares and one does not, at all!
Yes you can improve technique with grids, but that caring and wanting not to touch the jump is rather unusual.
You cannot breed it and you cannot train it - some horses 'care' about poles and others couldn't give a toss
My full brothers with both nature and nurture the same, are totally different in this regard, one cares and one does not, at all!
Yes you can improve technique with grids, but that caring and wanting not to touch the jump is rather unusual.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't agree you can't breed for it. There are lines known to be "allergic to wood" - obviously that doesn't mean every horse of that breeding is super careful, just that you're more likely to get careful horses out of that line.
I think some horses care more than others. Of course it's also possible to "unteach" them. The very careful ones learn to stop, the slightly less careful ones often turn into "four fault" horses that will usually try but will take the rail out if they're in trouble. The catch is that such horses can often be better for many riders because they won't take it personally if the rider sees a few iffy distances or makes a few wrong decisions.
There are also, of course, lots of reasons a horse might be hitting fences, even if it's naturally careful. And the more it hits, the less likely it will be to care when the going gets tough.
I will say those light plastic poles are notorious for making borderline horses less careful. There is very little "cost" to hitting them and a smart, less inspired horse learns quickly that it's not a huge deal to have a rail. Then even if the horse meets heavier poles in competition it's not in the habit of being careful and it takes a fence or two to realise the change.
I think some horses care more than others. Of course it's also possible to "unteach" them. The very careful ones learn to stop, the slightly less careful ones often turn into "four fault" horses that will usually try but will take the rail out if they're in trouble. The catch is that such horses can often be better for many riders because they won't take it personally if the rider sees a few iffy distances or makes a few wrong decisions.
There are also, of course, lots of reasons a horse might be hitting fences, even if it's naturally careful. And the more it hits, the less likely it will be to care when the going gets tough.
I will say those light plastic poles are notorious for making borderline horses less careful. There is very little "cost" to hitting them and a smart, less inspired horse learns quickly that it's not a huge deal to have a rail. Then even if the horse meets heavier poles in competition it's not in the habit of being careful and it takes a fence or two to realise the change.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
I think one of the problems is that if a horse is very bold XC, to a certain extent it HAS to be unfazed by hitting the odd fence - the ones who really, really care are often too careful to be useful XC horses because it completely destroys them if they tap a fence, especially when it doesn't move, or they are too slow/stop too often/waste time in the air by not brushing through fences with a bit of give.
That's not to say eventers can't be careful - it's been commented on by any number of pros that my horse wants to leave the fences up - but if he does have one then the bottom doesn't fall out of his world, and all other things being equal he's more likely to jump and have a rail than stop because he's a bit wrong. Really careful SJers though, as TS says, will stop rather than touch a pole - you only have to go to a big BSJA show to see the difference.
So with something which doesn't boot them out at every opportunity but which won't have a complete crisis if it touches something, then I think it is up to the rider to learn how to ride them well enough that they can and will jump clear.
There are other horses which simply don't care, and no amount of training makes any difference. They make good tetrathlon horses
That's not to say eventers can't be careful - it's been commented on by any number of pros that my horse wants to leave the fences up - but if he does have one then the bottom doesn't fall out of his world, and all other things being equal he's more likely to jump and have a rail than stop because he's a bit wrong. Really careful SJers though, as TS says, will stop rather than touch a pole - you only have to go to a big BSJA show to see the difference.
So with something which doesn't boot them out at every opportunity but which won't have a complete crisis if it touches something, then I think it is up to the rider to learn how to ride them well enough that they can and will jump clear.
There are other horses which simply don't care, and no amount of training makes any difference. They make good tetrathlon horses
stencilface
High upon a hillside
I don't think so no. Like I don't think you can teach horses to have flamboyance and that 'X factor' when it comes to dressage, they either have it or they don't.
Have you had anyone else to ride him to see if he's any different, not saying you're doing anything wrong - just a query.
I also think some showjumpers get their horses to be careful by doing things that we all know aren't legal or fair
Have you had anyone else to ride him to see if he's any different, not saying you're doing anything wrong - just a query.
I also think some showjumpers get their horses to be careful by doing things that we all know aren't legal or fair
little_flea
Well-Known Member
On the other hand though, super careful horses often tend to stop instead if they are not perfectly placed - and as an amateur, I'd rather have a horse that will jump from a less than perfect stride and have one down occasionally.
saskia295
Well-Known Member
I'll keep an eye on this post as mine doesn't seem to care about knocking them down. IT's frustrating though because from all photos, he clears them by miles in front, just clips them behind, V frustrating
kerilli
Well-Known Member
i knew an eventer who was really casual, and his rider cured him by sending him down a jumping lane of telegraph poles, fixed, fairly high... he hit 1 or 2 hard and then wised up quickly. not sure how long his super-carefullness lasted though.
for horses that are casual behind (lots of good xc horses are like this, v safe, just tap fences behind though) grids of low-ish wide parallels on short distances, and the dreaded 'descending oxer' (not big!!) work.
the latter is NOT allowed at comps (in collecting rings) but done carefully at home under experienced trainer's supervision it does work. it frightened me to bits at first when sj trainer got me to do it but she was right, you approach it like a spread, not an upright, horse doesn't see back bar until in the air and has to reach and try.
for horses that are casual behind (lots of good xc horses are like this, v safe, just tap fences behind though) grids of low-ish wide parallels on short distances, and the dreaded 'descending oxer' (not big!!) work.
the latter is NOT allowed at comps (in collecting rings) but done carefully at home under experienced trainer's supervision it does work. it frightened me to bits at first when sj trainer got me to do it but she was right, you approach it like a spread, not an upright, horse doesn't see back bar until in the air and has to reach and try.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
[ QUOTE ]
the latter is NOT allowed at comps (in collecting rings) but done carefully at home under experienced trainer's supervision it does work. it frightened me to bits at first when sj trainer got me to do it but she was right, you approach it like a spread, not an upright, horse doesn't see back bar until in the air and has to reach and try.
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, how 'decending' do you make them? I've seen references to this in books etc but never seen in practice. Is the back just a hole or 2 lower, or quite a lot lower?
the latter is NOT allowed at comps (in collecting rings) but done carefully at home under experienced trainer's supervision it does work. it frightened me to bits at first when sj trainer got me to do it but she was right, you approach it like a spread, not an upright, horse doesn't see back bar until in the air and has to reach and try.
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, how 'decending' do you make them? I've seen references to this in books etc but never seen in practice. Is the back just a hole or 2 lower, or quite a lot lower?
stencilface
High upon a hillside
I've done hogsbacks in sj, but never a descending oxer.
I have seen a pro jump over a large - 1.30 - oxer the wrong way at an international comp and never be stopped by a steward though, horse took the lower bar out quite spectacularly, and I bet they didn't have a fence down in the ring
I have seen a pro jump over a large - 1.30 - oxer the wrong way at an international comp and never be stopped by a steward though, horse took the lower bar out quite spectacularly, and I bet they didn't have a fence down in the ring
Holidays_are_coming
Well-Known Member
I remember watching a Tim Stockdale Demo, and he said a horse is allowed to have the odd fence down but a carefull horse will appologize when it next goes over it and will not have it down again.
Mare mare will knock them down when i allow her to go far to fast but when Im in control we can usually get clears, but once she had had 1 she rarely touches another.
Mare mare will knock them down when i allow her to go far to fast but when Im in control we can usually get clears, but once she had had 1 she rarely touches another.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, how 'decending' do you make them? I've seen references to this in books etc but never seen in practice. Is the back just a hole or 2 lower, or quite a lot lower?
[/ QUOTE ]
about 3 or 4 holes lower iirc. front bar was about 3' high, i'd have wet myself coming to anything bigger with a hidden back bar...
only did it twice, lesson learnt, mare opened her back and threw her hind end away more in the air, and once she knew how, it was easier for her.
btw, the sj trainer who did this was also a fan of very very very occasional selective rapping. she'd learnt to do it at Paul Schockemohle's iirc, and broken her wrist once or twice learning the exact timing, it is a true art and not for the faint-hearted, and must only be done once in a blue moon as otherwise horses get v suspicious of people standing beside fences.
done right, the horse doesn't suspect that a person has done it, they think that they totally misjudged the height of the fence, and so they re-calibrate their judgement accordingly...
i let her do it on my chestnut mare once (after a long argument) and it did make a big difference.
i am not advocating it, i wouldn't be brave enough to do it, but it is another thing that, done expertly and very selectively, can work.
compared to some of the abuse i see, particularly drilling horses with the dreaded draw reins for hours, i don't think getting a horse to hit a fence hard as a one-off is very bad...
*awaits deluge of abuse*
Out of interest, how 'decending' do you make them? I've seen references to this in books etc but never seen in practice. Is the back just a hole or 2 lower, or quite a lot lower?
[/ QUOTE ]
about 3 or 4 holes lower iirc. front bar was about 3' high, i'd have wet myself coming to anything bigger with a hidden back bar...
only did it twice, lesson learnt, mare opened her back and threw her hind end away more in the air, and once she knew how, it was easier for her.
btw, the sj trainer who did this was also a fan of very very very occasional selective rapping. she'd learnt to do it at Paul Schockemohle's iirc, and broken her wrist once or twice learning the exact timing, it is a true art and not for the faint-hearted, and must only be done once in a blue moon as otherwise horses get v suspicious of people standing beside fences.
done right, the horse doesn't suspect that a person has done it, they think that they totally misjudged the height of the fence, and so they re-calibrate their judgement accordingly...
i let her do it on my chestnut mare once (after a long argument) and it did make a big difference.
i am not advocating it, i wouldn't be brave enough to do it, but it is another thing that, done expertly and very selectively, can work.
compared to some of the abuse i see, particularly drilling horses with the dreaded draw reins for hours, i don't think getting a horse to hit a fence hard as a one-off is very bad...
*awaits deluge of abuse*
oofadoofa
Well-Known Member
Decending oxer, the back rail only has to be a couple of holes lower, basically so the horse cannot see it on his approach. Works very well!!
oofadoofa
Well-Known Member
I'll probably get shot down too her kerilli, but I let a pro give my horse what he described as a "shin bashing" one day. He had quite a large oxer with a split rail upside down placed on cups on the front of the fence if you see what I mean, meaning that if the horse touched the rail he would take the lot out. He used coloured poles for the rest of it, but this front rail was placed a hole or two higher and you couldn't really see it. The horse came in and whacked the split rail taking down the whole fence, wings, everything. Came round again (without the split rail) and he ballooned over it nearly jumping the rider off!
Not something I would ever have done myself, but I must say he picked his feet up pretty well after that.
Not something I would ever have done myself, but I must say he picked his feet up pretty well after that.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
[ QUOTE ]
compared to some of the abuse i see, particularly drilling horses with the dreaded draw reins for hours, i don't think getting a horse to hit a fence hard as a one-off is very bad...
*awaits deluge of abuse*
[/ QUOTE ]
No abuse from this corner
I understand what you are saying. I used to ride one that would probably have found it useful but I didn't have access to anyone expert enough to do it 'properly'. In the end, really heavy square poles helped a bit
compared to some of the abuse i see, particularly drilling horses with the dreaded draw reins for hours, i don't think getting a horse to hit a fence hard as a one-off is very bad...
*awaits deluge of abuse*
[/ QUOTE ]
No abuse from this corner
kerilli
Well-Known Member
you do need an expert to do it, and that expertise can be very painful to come by...
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Sorry, but don't think I'd rap a horse in any circumstances, not matter how experienced someone was teaching me.
I don't think its fair at all, maybe I'm not competitive enough to want to be unfair on my horse but there you go.
My horse hates to knock one, and I know he has never been rapped, he just hates knocking things with his legs, he panics less now, but really doesn't like it.
They can either jump cleanly or not imho
I don't think its fair at all, maybe I'm not competitive enough to want to be unfair on my horse but there you go.
My horse hates to knock one, and I know he has never been rapped, he just hates knocking things with his legs, he panics less now, but really doesn't like it.
They can either jump cleanly or not imho
druid
Well-Known Member
Descending/offset oxers need only be 2-3"lower behind (2 holes is usually sufficient). More effective is a very thin aluminium bar set up 4-6" infront of a standard oxer at the same height as the front bar - gives an impressive "ping" when they hit which is enough to spook most.
Rambo
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As in over SJ fences?
Or is it just something they either are, or are not?
I think I may be coming to the conclusion that my current ned just isn't
and isn't going to be, no matter what I do.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can't ethically teach a horse to be careful imo...they either are..or they event
As in over SJ fences?
Or is it just something they either are, or are not?
I think I may be coming to the conclusion that my current ned just isn't
[/ QUOTE ]
You can't ethically teach a horse to be careful imo...they either are..or they event
hedgehog1
Well-Known Member
its very hard if they dont have that will to clear the fence. i rode one for a season in 1.30s who was at best a clear and then 4 faulter in the jump off
i was working on a pro yard so had all the *help* possible to try and get more clear rounds out of him but it was SUCH hard work that it really wasnt worth it - IE all the prep going into getting the clear round just for one specific class was pretty immense. and even then, if you made a tiny mistake, that was that.
can be very disheartening, as it gets to a point where its really not worth it and they just dont change. sometimes they get tappy when they are reaching their limit so it can be worth listening to what they're trying to say before they start stopping!
i was working on a pro yard so had all the *help* possible to try and get more clear rounds out of him but it was SUCH hard work that it really wasnt worth it - IE all the prep going into getting the clear round just for one specific class was pretty immense. and even then, if you made a tiny mistake, that was that.
can be very disheartening, as it gets to a point where its really not worth it and they just dont change. sometimes they get tappy when they are reaching their limit so it can be worth listening to what they're trying to say before they start stopping!
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
How old is your horse? I think some youngsters can be clumsy to begin with but often get the hang of it, my last horse was certainly like this. I think you can generally improve them by way of various jumping exercises/grids etc. but I think some horses are just not made for it!
kerilli - Sorry, don't agree with you suggesting rapping at all. Horrid, horrid method. Like you say you're trying to trick the horse into thinking he's misjudged it which is plain nasty and IMO a sure way to shatter their confidence.
kerilli - Sorry, don't agree with you suggesting rapping at all. Horrid, horrid method. Like you say you're trying to trick the horse into thinking he's misjudged it which is plain nasty and IMO a sure way to shatter their confidence.
Pep12
Well-Known Member
I think they have to have a conscience and that can't be taught. I have a very careful horse who hates to knock down a fence (will beat himself up if it happens) and will stop in preference if he thinks he is wrong. This is why I will now never push him much past his comfort zone (lesson learned!!)
I think it was either Tim Stockdale or one of the Whitakers that was asked what they looked for in a show jumper and they said that it had to be brave enough to come down to an enormous oxer but enough of a wimp to not want to hit it. Makes sense to me
I think it was either Tim Stockdale or one of the Whitakers that was asked what they looked for in a show jumper and they said that it had to be brave enough to come down to an enormous oxer but enough of a wimp to not want to hit it. Makes sense to me
stencilface
High upon a hillside
[ QUOTE ]
I think it was either Tim Stockdale or one of the Whitakers that was asked what they looked for in a show jumper and they said that it had to be brave enough to come down to an enormous oxer but enough of a wimp to not want to hit it. Makes sense to me
[/ QUOTE ]
That is like my horse really, oh, apart from the enormous oxer bit, I'd take one average sized please
I think it was either Tim Stockdale or one of the Whitakers that was asked what they looked for in a show jumper and they said that it had to be brave enough to come down to an enormous oxer but enough of a wimp to not want to hit it. Makes sense to me
[/ QUOTE ]
That is like my horse really, oh, apart from the enormous oxer bit, I'd take one average sized please