Can you turn a hot horse into a calm one?

[Ambers Echo]

When I first got Amber 3 years ago I was very keen on improving her rideability.

I wasn't a good enough rider to just mange her power and enthusiasm - I had to try and make her easier to ride.

Mark Rashid talks about control of speed, direction and destination in all gaits over all terrain without evasions. Buck Brannaman talks of control of all 4 feet in all directions in all situations. A horse who can go from chilling calmly to a flat out gallop and back to chilling calmly again. Horses who can go from gallop down through all gaits to a smooth halt with barely any rein and no arguments. I believe good riders control hot horses using huge amounts of sensitivity, timing, balance, clarity , feel, skill and courage that I just don’t have. So instead of becoming a hugely skilled rider, I wanted Amber to become very easy to ride instead!

But in 3 years of working towards that with quite a lot of schooling, quite a few clinics and lessons she is no easier than she used to be. There are days when she is dead easy and we can move down through the gaits with no problem. The good days are much better than they used to be. But the difficult days are the same as they always have been: these are the days when she just sticks 2 hooves up at my plans and prats about and is basically an opinionated ginger madam. And I am nowhere near having control over all that in company. She wants to be in front and she definitely wants to stay with the others. I make her go behind in hacks but it's a battle and she never really relaxes unless she is marching along at the head of the pack. Plus when I did a XC clinic on a course she knew she HATED the stop-starting. She wanted to run and jump them all without stopping and was getting very het up about waiting after each fence in a very un - 'control of all 4 feet in all situations' - way!

So I guess my question is am I wasting my time trying to change how she is? Or am I just not doing it right - not spending long enough on it, not being consistent enough in expecting her to listen to me all the time, not putting the degree of commitment into achieving this as it takes.

 

[milliepops]

Based on the horses I've ridden and trained I don't think you can change their essential nature, not easily anyway. (and I'm not sure I would want to, really?)
I think if they are the type that is always on the go, they will always tend to be on the go.
You can definitely train them so you have more influence on HOW they use that energy but I don't think you can turn a buzzy horse into a switched off one. I know as a rider I personally feel more in control and more relaxed about their hotness when I know that the horse has enough of an education to let me override its desire to dash off. Until you get that bit sorted it can feel a bit uncomfortable I think

I have 2 that I would describe as hot at the moment, they are hot in really different ways though. When Kira gets ridiculous she pings up and down on the spot and concertinas up in a way that you can't get her to unwind. When Darcy gets too hot he runs off. I am much more Ok about Kira's hotness but that's because I've put 5 years into her training so am getting better at managing her emotions, and also I know her inside out so it doesn't bother me too much, but Darcy still has a long way to go before I feel happy about him getting fired up. I think he will be one that I can channel his inner zoomies into something more productive and just make him work harder but at the moment it's a bit unmanageable!

I think control and direction of hotness into constructive work is different to changing the horse's natural outlook, basically. though for a competent rider it has a similar effect in terms of rideability.

 

[ihatework]

I think control and direction of hotness into constructive work is different to changing the horse's natural outlook, basically. though for a competent rider it has a similar effect in terms of rideability.

This

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks that is interesting. So are you saying in the end it comes down to the rider? As in good rider channels a hot horse effectively. If so, where does training come in? Would those horses who stop smoothly from a gallop on the buckle when Rashid rides them, quickly stop doing that for an inexperienced rider?

When Deedee first started bucking my RI said she had been produced by a very good rider who may have set her up to be submissive and obedient. And that this would have carried on for a short while with a new rider but would not last indefinitely with a weaker rider so she may turn out to be a little less 'easy' than she seemed to be at first. Which also implies that in the end good riders maker horses look easy but that is not the same as that horse actually becoming easy long term for anyone.

 

[ihatework]

A good rider is continually training a horse in every interaction they have. Sometimes it’s subtle and often they don’t even consciously realise they are doing it.
Put a less good rider on and it’s very common place that things unravel. How quickly that happens depends on how solid the horses foundations are, how generous the horse is and how good/bad the new rider is!

 

[EllenJay]

Interesting question. I think that there is a difference between a "fast" horse and a stressed horse, and they are both called hot horses. Horses, like children, need to know their place in the world. Generally a stressed horse want to take control as they have no confidence in what they are being asked, so feel that they need to take control. A fast horse, will go flat out when asked, but comes back when asked.

This sounds like I am slanting your riding, but I am not. You have changed a mare who wants to take control 100% of the time to 50% of the time. She is trusting your judgement more, but not yet completely. You will get there. From previous posts, I understand that under some circumstances you get nervous (hacking) which means that as she is sensitive she picks upon this, so consequently her trust is a little lost, other circumstances you are confident, so therefore she is, and trust is regained. The more you trust her, the more she will trust you, and the calmer she will get.

 

[scats]

I’d agree with everything MP has said. My experience has been that hot horses tend to stay hot, but that as they further their education, that energy can be more easily channeled to stop them boiling over. I also think that certain horses and riders just click. I had a very hot JA pony, who I got when she was in her late teens. She had terrified the life out of a lot of people over the years before I had her and got herself quite a reputation. I just thought she was hilarious and when I rode her, I was just able to work with that energy without getting into a battle. She never scared me, even when she cantering sideways down bridlepaths with her tongue waving out of her mouth. Despite everything, I always knew I had complete control. I put a very competent friend on her once, the pony went off like the clappers around a course of jumps pretty much of her own accord and my friend jumped off, white as a sheet and said never again.
Then again, a few years ago I rode a friends horse and I just didn’t click with him at all. He was bouncing about all over the show and I struggled to get anything out of him. I just felt like all the buttons where in the wrong places. Friend was highly amused!

 

[splashgirl45]

the only thing i would do with a naturally hot horse would be to turn out overnight all year round, that can sometimes take the edge off so they are more willing to listen to the rider. however i have seen horses that are hot with their owner but when a professional gets on within a short time the horse is behaving differently, that may be because the pro is more relaxed and confident, and also reads the horse more quickly and can stop the bad behaviour before it starts....this comes with many years of experience and those of us who have only one horse will rarely reach that stage, but we can try.....

 

[milliepops]

Thanks that is interesting. So are you saying in the end it comes down to the rider? As in good rider channels a hot horse effectively. If so, where does training come in? Would those horses who stop smoothly from a gallop on the buckle when Rashid rides them, quickly stop doing that for an inexperienced rider?

Agree with IHW
I think a good rider manages a more naturally challenging horse almost instinctively which stops hotness from escalating and enables the horse to remain responsive to the cues it has learned through training.

Put a less usefully instinctive rider on and tiny things will start to slip and then the horse becomes able to start making it's own choices again which may not be the same as the riders choices.

 

[milliepops]

I do also think that some people have an electric bum
The best hunting I ever had was on a whips horse when its normal rider got injured and I was allowed to ride it in the field.
It had been hot and silly with her but was a perfectly mannered ride for me, I loved every minute.

 

[scats]

Just to add, once I realised how crucial your core is when riding hot horses, it made a huge difference to how I rode them. It suddenly became apparent to me that you can ‘hold’ a hot horse with your core muscles, without having to take any more hold than your normal contact. Millie has a very hot canter and I sometimes have to really engage my abdominal muscles to avoid having to take pull when she starts getting opinionated. I can bring her back to trot this way too.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks everyone. I think I have misunderstood Rashid et al all these years! When they say gain control they mean a rider gains complete control of that horse through skill, training, persistence. But not that the horse is then easy to control for everyone. I guess its the same for manners. My horses are well mannered on the ground because I like them that way and put effort into it but it does not take long for their manners to slip if handled by people who dont reinforce them.

 

[milliepops]

I dont know if that what they mean but that's certainly been my experience. E.g. Manners is something that I'm constantly reinforcing but without having to think about it, it's just habit. Not a conscious effort. But I notice that some other people aren't the same and so their horses push boundaries constantly and become rude or awkward because of the lack of consistency.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Thanks everyone. I think I have misunderstood Rashid et al all these years! When they say gain control they mean a rider gains complete control of that horse through skill, training, persistence. But not that the horse is then easy to control for everyone. I guess its the same for manners. My horses are well mannered on the ground because I like them that way and put effort into it but it does not take long for their manners to slip if handled by people who dont reinforce them.

I think this is exactly right!

Topaz and Skylla are very hot horses. Topaz these days prople ask to ride, she looks well behaved and a lovely ride, which she is but only if she’s ridden/ managed well.

Skylla makes people nervous, she’s actually far better behaved or more sensible at least, but being hot plus more unbalanced and younger gives her that more unpredictable feel.

Both will be knobs if not kept on top of! Having had Topaz 10+ years now we know that we cannot change her temperament but can ‘manage’ her.

 

[daffy44]

I agree with MP, I really dont think you can change the horses essential nature, its how you manage it that matters.

Certainly when you buy a new horse you have the previous riders effect for a short space of time, but unless the new rider does things in the same way this effect will soon unravel.

Groundwork and ridden work are the same in this respect, if you automatically stay in control then you dont realise there is an issue, because you manage it without thinking about it, but when a person with less skills handles the same horse the issue can become apparent very quickly.

 

[be positive]

I dont know if that what they mean but that's certainly been my experience. E.g. Manners is something that I'm constantly reinforcing but without having to think about it, it's just habit. Not a conscious effort. But I notice that some other people aren't the same and so their horses push boundaries constantly and become rude or awkward because of the lack of consistency.

I agree, many owners really do not instill the manners and keep reinforcing them, they wait until the horse has overstepped the mark then react rather than just keep quietly stopping them in the first place, I have a pony here that is so well mannered when I deal with him on the ground and if I ride him yet his owner, who is not soft, lets him step outside of the boundaries then tells him off, a few days with her handling him and his manners are on the way out, nearly two weeks and I want him back under my full time care!

Another client has a group of horses that are not bad in any way but take the p constantly, 2 have been here for schooling, clipping and lessons and behave normally yet at their own yard they are unruly, undisciplined and are a bit lost in a way, they like clear boundaries and the hotter they are the clearer and more consistent the rider/ handler needs to be, the slower thinkers do not act so quickly so you can get away with being less focused dealing with them.

 

[Upthecreek]

I don’t think you can change a horse’s personality or temperament; it’s about working with what you have to get the best out of them. A truly hot horse will never transform into being calm and laid back. A professional rider may be able to contain and channel the hotness better than someone less experienced, but in essence you still have a hot horse. Equally a calm laid back horse may step up a gear when ridden by a pro, but it doesn’t change what he is. I think we can all look at how we manage and ride our horses to get the very best out of them, but we can’t change the fundamentals of what they are.

 

[DabDab]

I like hot horses because I like that feeling of having plenty to work with, and I think you always get that with a hot horse, no matter how well trained they are. And certainly if you don't keep the structure in place even the well trained ones with tend to slip back into silly hot.

I think sometimes you have to mix up your training too when you're teaching a run off hot type, because their answer to not quite getting the concept of something will generally be to go faster and hope for the best. And maybe that's what the llikes Rashid are hinting at. For example, I had to install a neck strap whoa command with Arts when first establishing left canter because she needed the clarity of a different aid for a while as I needed all my body and rein aids to help develop her balance and bend in the canter, so then using the same aids to ask for trot she found confusing and would fall into trot before dashing off like roadrunner. She's naturally a very busy horse with a very busy brain and needs me to keep all the noodles of thought straightish for her. After a couple of weeks she'd grasped what I was getting at with my normal aids and didn't need the neck strap aid anymore.

 

[DabDab]

Also, I think the temptation is to think that it's the body that's hot rather than the brain. Fast work to try to tire them out often tends to work the other way. A bit like border collies that get more hyperactive despite increased exercise if that exercise is unstructured.

Good pros may have different styles and techniques but they are all experts and working brain exercise into a situation

 

[Cortez]

A horse cannot be better than it's rider - all training wears off if not constantly reinforced. Hot horses need riders who appreciate them and can channel the energy. I love hot horses, but they don't appear hot when I ride them, which surprises people when they get on board

 

[rara007]

I guess it comes down to terminology. To me, ‘hot’ has an undertone of tension. You can certainly get some horses that are stressed and tense (and therefore spooky and over/under reactive) in their work to relax and enjoy it.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Not sure about terminology, both of mine can be very tense or very relaxed they are still ‘hot’, forward, sharp, etc, no matter which.

I also don’t agree they are only for professionals, I am VERY amateur, wobbly core to boot, but eventually I have managed to get a tune out of Topaz, though yes a better rider would have done it quicker! Interestingly I’ve had pro riders ride her that have done a terrible job too.

 

[maya2008]

In my experience it depends on management and exercise levels.

Living out, with plenty of canter work out hacking and some challenging (for her) schooling, my TB was a dream - reliable and safe. In, or with insufficient canter work, there were times she verged on dangerous.

Arab Cross much the same, was decidedly interesting to bring back into work even living out, whereas in full work she is calm and sweet.

The Shetland requires two riders a day (with at least one set of fast work/jumping) to keep it sane...

Other horses have needed less.

 

[nikkimariet]

You can refine the over reaction into something manageable. But I don’t think a hot horse will ever be turned into a plod.

Take Fig for example - he’s akways been a live wire. That’s just him. Under me he’s sharp and responsive but managed well and successfully. I’ve had others on him who are good riders but he’s boiled 150% over the edge and just run off with them in a foaming mess with his veins up. In the wrong hands that could end very badly.

Likewise, Nova was a lazy sausage and I got him to the point of being nicely reactive but his intuitive nature was to sit behind you and I (nor anyone else I ever had on him) would have ever been able to change that completely.

 

[Skib]

A bit late, but didnt have computer yesterday.
I have not learned how to hold back a mare cantering in company. I can ride a gelding second but any advice on riding second would be very welcome.

However, Amber I am posting today because related to what Tik Maynard taught about relaxing and slowing a horse before jumping - I think the same can be applied hacking or out in the open.
I was riding first (because I havent mastered riding behind!) on a mare I still dont know well and my escort told me I didnt have to canter. That relaxed me of course. Then she said that of the mare felt quiet in trot and it seemed safe to canter her, I should.
The mare felt calm so I asked her for canter.
She didnt canter she seemed puzzled by the request - may be trotting too gently? But I asked her again and told her that if one could canter from halt or walk, it shouldnt be impossible for her to canter. In terms of horsemanship I can see this was incorrect as her hind legs may not have been sufficiently under her.
Anyway I said the word canter and put my leg on and she cantered at once - but such a lovely rhythmic canter like one has in the school. We cantered a long comfortable way like that - my escort remarked on how nice it was.
Thinking about it later, it struck me that when one learns to ride one always gees up the horse a bit as one approaches the corner to canter. Then one releases the enegy and congratulates oneself that horses always canter so easilly for one. And out hacking because the canter is so big, one almost immediately goes into forward seat and that frees the horse further.
Many of the things we do prior to canter and while cantering give the horse the idea that we want fast forward. But if we alter the context and preparation may be that is the answer to slow? And that does seem similar to Tik Maynard quietening and slowing the horses before he actually allowed them to jump the jump.

Of course if anyone can teach me how to ride a mare second - I should like that. She is lke an arrow from a bow when following.

 

[Flamenco]

As others have said it depends what you mean by hot. I had an NH trainer out who says that every horse should be calm and relaxed regardless of their breed. My PRE was very sharp and spooky, until I sorted out his diet. If she hadn't said this I would have continued thinking this is normal for a hotblooded horse and wouldn't have considered his diet might be causing it.

He's still forward going, responsive and desperate to please, but now he's does everything calmly without the explosive edge. I would have described him as hot, but not any more.

He's definitely not a novice ride, you close your leg rather than squeeze, and he goes off your weight aids more than your legs and hands but for a sensitive rider whose willing to adapt to him he's amazing.

I guess it depends whether theres an underlying issue for the hotness. Someone used to a kick along type may still think he's very hot though!

 

[Ambers Echo]

The question of what I mean by 'hot' is interesting. My RI describes her as a 'high revver". She maintains her fitness without work, she's very busy. Alert, switched on, powerful, energetic. I can tell when she is stressed/spooky but she's not usually reactive in that way. It is more enthusiasm and uncontained energy. Especially jumping. She sees a fence from 20 strides out, locks onto it and launches herself at it. She sometimes locks onto the wrong fence - just any random fence passing her eyeline. I've improved that but not fundamentally changed it. I think her refusal to be left behind may be stress related or just learned behaviour as before I had her all she ever did was hunt. So, to her, running, jumping and keeping up with the herd is what she knows.
I've always wanted her to combine excitement with calmness and willingness to listen but that is very much a work in progress!

 

[oldie48]

I've been thinking about this question since it was posted. I usually categorise my horses as either forward thinking or backward thinking rather than hot or calm. Mr B was forward thinking, generally calm but could be quite reactive in certain situations. Rose on the other hand is backwards thinking in comparison but not actually lazy as such. She is also generally calm but can also be reactive in certain situations. However, where they are different is the way they react, Mr B would spook, spin or run off, Rose is more likely to slam on the brakes and go up or hump. Both of them had/have the potential to get het up and throw their toys out of the pram but actually Mr B was easier to deal with as his natural desire was to go forward. I know I keep beating the drum about this but the best way I've found of dealing with any unwanted behaviour is to have control (which is a work in progress!), to be able to put the horse's head/neck where I want it, to be able to control the pace within the pace etc. I am still on a steep learning curve with Rose as she doesn't always listen to my leg so I don't necessarily have control of her body or sometimes forward motion but I learned with Mr B and Rose that although they are so different, the answer is pretty much the same. I must be able to put my leg on and get the right response and they must listen to me rather than do their own thing. Sorry that this is so waffly

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

The question of what I mean by 'hot' is interesting. My RI describes her as a 'high revver". She maintains her fitness without work, she's very busy. Alert, switched on, powerful, energetic. I can tell when she is stressed/spooky but she's not usually reactive in that way. It is more enthusiasm and uncontained energy. Especially jumping. She sees a fence from 20 strides out, locks onto it and launches herself at it. She sometimes locks onto the wrong fence - just any random fence passing her eyeline. I've improved that but not fundamentally changed it. I think her refusal to be left behind may be stress related or just learned behaviour as before I had her all she ever did was hunt. So, to her, running, jumping and keeping up with the herd is what she knows.
I've always wanted her to combine excitement with calmness and willingness to listen but that is very much a work in progress!

AE, this is B Fuzzy down to a tee!
I'm struggling with the jumping due to this, as my v experienced coach friend says, B looks like a young teenagers pony in a jump off (point, go, steer, and that's it) that's from start to finish in a lesson, once I thought we'd jump out of the arena solid wall!

Its taken me a good while but she's now a fabulous hack, as in v forwards going but sensible, sharp as a tin tack but absolutely no malice. Bit of a twerp in company if behind as in but evasion or leaning as wanting to be in front, but riding v narrow tracks behind friends has helped a bit.
She is so forwards thinking, I only have to think trot or canter and shes doing it, I have to be on the ball the whole time. I'm v happy to hack alone as she's best then.
I certainly couldn't produce a decent stressage test on her, think I need a couple more years yet.

 

[milliepops]

the best way I've found of dealing with any unwanted behaviour is to have control (which is a work in progress!), to be able to put the horse's head/neck where I want it, to be able to control the pace within the pace etc. I am still on a steep learning curve with Rose as she doesn't always listen to my leg so I don't necessarily have control of her body or sometimes forward motion but I learned with Mr B and Rose that although they are so different, the answer is pretty much the same.

I think this is a huge piece of the puzzle and is certainly what I've been working on with current project. If I can keep his whole neck down then I'm mostly in control of the speed, now he's learned that my leg can mean something other than "go faster" then I can stay more in control of direction too And being able to influence those 2 things means I am starting to be able to channel his energy and zoominess into useful work rather than just getting carted every 2 minutes.

it was interesting to me that at my first ROR clinic i went to, the instructor asked everyone else what they thought about first and foremost when they got on their horses, and the other people answered things like "suppleness" "contact" "bending"
and I said SAFETY and CONTROL, hehehe