Cancelled BE event

[RachelFerd]

[/QUOTE]

Though qualification requirements have already been brought up as an issue with the number of cancellations

I mean it's a chicken and egg one isn't it - people saying they can't get 2x DCs because events are cancelling - but events are cancelling because they aren't getting enough entries (I know originally it was weather, but now it is entries). My view on this is that access to championships *should* be contingent on people being active competing members - and the previous situation in which you could qualify for Badminton grassroots with only 2 runs in total (1x top % finish in a normal class, and then 1x top % finish in a regional final) didn't do enough to support participant numbers across the calendar.

In this regard it is definitely the BS rules that drive the most attendance - needing to get 4x British Novice/Disco/Newcomers clears in a set time period means that you have to go to AT LEAST 4 shows (or attend multi-day shows) because you'll only have 1x your class on any given day.

And when BD created a winter qualifying period for area festivals as well as the summer one, they effectively doubled the amount of competition that the average bronze/silver competitor was likely to target, because they now need 3x sheets every 6 months rather than every year.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

None of this feels very surprising TBH. Have to say I think that we'll see organisations ramping up the number of qualifying results needed to get to champs - I've always thought that the 5xDCs direct qualification to BS's nat amateur champs are quite a lot - but if it makes people go out to more shows, I can see that it makes sense.

British Eventing could drive a different way of direct qualifying to Badminton grassroots - say 5x DC results in a qualifying period could get a direct ticket to Badminton. You'd have to work out the exact number to make sure that didn't qualify too many people - but I suspect it wouldn't.

5 to get to National Amateur Champs does feel a lot, but it has defineitely made me go to more shows and to pick BS Cat 1 shows over local unaff ones. BUt then SJ is cheaper and there are localish options every weekend.

If you could qualify direct to Badminton with more DCs I'd be absolutely going for that. But it would have to feel realistic. 4 maybe, not 5. Or 5 max! As it is, I think you probably need a low 20s dressage to have any chance at all so it feels out of reach at the moment. Though I can dream of what might be possoble one day....!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I was sat round a table with several equestrian centre organisers the other day and it’s across the board entries are lower. One said that they’re committed BD attendees now either only get their qualifications and then train or they have dropped an event a month to save money. At RC we have seen entries fall across the board for qualifiers with people not so willing to go to champs now as too expensive. Clubs also make less money as tried to keep entries down while costs of paramedics and venues has gone up.

Yep it's across the board. When my girls were targeting NSEA qualifiers to get to Champs the competition was fierce. Lady Manners (a local school one of my daughters rode for) would enter 4 teams into every class! But at a local venue a few weeks ago, every school that sent a team qualified as they just were not enough kids competing to have teams of 3 or 4. Spme camp organisers are struggling for numbers too.

It's a difficult time for everyone.

 

[RachelFerd]

5 to get to National Amateur Champs does feel a lot, but it has defineitely made me go to more shows and to pick BS Cat 1 shows over local unaff ones. BUt then SJ is cheaper and there are localish options every weekend.

If you could qualify direct to Badminton with more DCs I'd be absolutely going for that. But it would have to feel realistic. 4 maybe, not 5. Or 5 max! As it is, I think you probably need a low 20s dressage to have any chance at all so it feels out of reach at the moment. Though I can dream of what might be possoble one day....!

I saw a few people were annoyed about the qualification for areas being 2xDCs because "it doesn't value dressage" - but dressage is effectively overvalued in every single grassroots level class at every single event (with prize money generally only ending up in the hands of people who are doing strong dressage tests). At novice+ the balance of influence is much better (like my horse can make up for being a bit average on the flat by being fast on the XC). So I think rewarding jumping performances for qualification purposes is totally right - and that the dressage will still carry plenty of influence at the regionals/champs - as it does in every single section at every event.

I think BE should definitely be thinking about what they can do to attract event entries which unaffiliated events can't - and getting to ride at Bramham and Badminton are opportunities that are completely exclusive to BE - it's a USP that the cotswold cup etc. can't compete with. So anything they can do to make that feel like a tangible, achievable goal for the maximum amount of grassroots riders AND driving up participation numbers at the same time, they should be doing. At the moment it still feels like a "why bother" to people who don't have a horse that can turn out a mid 20s dressage test. Having a dual pathway of qualification (like the amateur BS classes) - say, top 10% at regional championship, OR 5x DCs in a season might just do that. I'm guessing for someone like you it would probably change the way you planned a season maybe?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

@RachelFerd yes it would totally change my season planning. I'd be super excited by the opportunity to get there. That's why I liked the Brigante Cup. It was a points league with points for DC regardless of placing. (As well as points for placing which was good for people with fab dressage scores). So it rewarded being willing to just get out more! It made season planning focused and exciting. Everything I did was towards a single huge goal. I missed out by 1 point but still had a load of fun trying.

I am also really enjoying chasing down those 5 SJ DCs and have re-arranged stuff to be able to fit more shows in. I am jumping more - but crucially (for the context of this discussion) I am focusing exclusively on shows that 'count'.

 

[sportsmansB]

If the qual for Badminton was 4 or 5 x double clears which got you into one final per large region in the autumn from which a set number went through to Badminton, that would maybe work as they could have more certainty around the numbers (and they could spread that set number over the regional finals based on entries). Would also give hope to those with DC machines who might not be dressage masters as autumn weather etc may allow for a different spread of qualifiers. Those with flashy numbers who were less reliable SJ / XC and might win one by miles but mess up others wouldn't get to the final.
Would be easy to use past seasons data to see what the qualifications would need to be to make it work.

 

[RachelFerd]

If the qual for Badminton was 4 or 5 x double clears which got you into one final per large region in the autumn from which a set number went through to Badminton, that would maybe work as they could have more certainty around the numbers (and they could spread that set number over the regional finals based on entries). Would also give hope to those with DC machines who might not be dressage masters as autumn weather etc may allow for a different spread of qualifiers. Those with flashy numbers who were less reliable SJ / XC and might win one by miles but mess up others wouldn't get to the final.
Would be easy to use past seasons data to see what the qualifications would need to be to make it work.

That's what is already happening, no? It is just that it is 2x double clears, and the regional finals are more late Summer than Autumn (Autumn being risky because of ground cancellations). And the regional finals are still dominated by the good dressage horses.

It would definitely be possible to work out the right parameters using the stats that exist - in the BE stats centre (https://bestats.equiratings.com/analysis) it isn't possible to set the right parameters, but as a starting point, in the whole of 2022 at BE80/90 level there were only ~110 horses that jumped 6 or more SJ clear rounds. Given that a bunch of those riders would still be ineligible for grassroots (competed at intermediate in the past 10 years) and that a few of those clear SJ rounds won't have also been clear XC, and that it is spread over 80 and 90 level, I'm going to guess that there would be less than 50 horses that would actually achieve a direct qualification, and the majority of those are horses that would have got to the champs via the current route anyway - ie. I doubt it would increase the overall number of qualified competitors by very much, but would encourage more people to try and qualify.

Edited to add - at 80 & 90 level in 2022 only 29 horses had 5x FODs too - 88 horses had 4x FODs.

 

[Squeak]

I think there would debatably need to be two routes for qualification. If you went for double clears only, you'd exclude those horses that are brave/ bold xc at the cost of a pole sj but who can make it up with a tough xc and decent dressage.

I do agree with you though RF that BE could do more to encourage more runs by changing the qualifying criteria and that the criteria should favour those who support/run BE more. I also completely agree that BE need to look at what are their USP (venues and riders) and utilise those.

 

[ihatework]

I honestly think you are on to something with the 5 x DC R_F - we should 100% be rewarding good jumping horses IMO

 

[LEC]

I wasn’t upset when I heard the original mooting to run like quest did and take your best 4/5 runs which converts into points and have a leaderboard with top 100 say qualifying. Quest definitely motivated me last year when I was sick to keep going out. I even went to one the same day as having chemo as needed the scores which luckily I got. Mind you this year my BE is a disaster and unaff has been ok! I am slowly running out of time for 2x DC though so will aim for Bicton instead which has been a pathway to Badminton for a fair few. I think the 2x DC is totally fair and I don’t get why people are moaning.I get very pro heavy 100 here and so then you have to start playing the game to travel further to have a better shot at placing and I cba with that as sometimes I don’t like the events. I would rather run round lovely venues which are a challenge like Nunney.

 

[sportsmansB]

That's what is already happening, no? It is just that it is 2x double clears, and the regional finals are more late Summer than Autumn (Autumn being risky because of ground cancellations). And the regional finals are still dominated by the good dressage horses.

It would definitely be possible to work out the right parameters using the stats that exist - in the BE stats centre (https://bestats.equiratings.com/analysis) it isn't possible to set the right parameters, but as a starting point, in the whole of 2022 at BE80/90 level there were only ~110 horses that jumped 6 or more SJ clear rounds. Given that a bunch of those riders would still be ineligible for grassroots (competed at intermediate in the past 10 years) and that a few of those clear SJ rounds won't have also been clear XC, and that it is spread over 80 and 90 level, I'm going to guess that there would be less than 50 horses that would actually achieve a direct qualification, and the majority of those are horses that would have got to the champs via the current route anyway - ie. I doubt it would increase the overall number of qualified competitors by very much, but would encourage more people to try and qualify.

Edited to add - at 80 & 90 level in 2022 only 29 horses had 5x FODs too - 88 horses had 4x FODs.

Maybe 3 x DC is needed but they must have competed at 5 events in the season to be eligible - would keep people interested in trying even if they had a blip?

 

[RachelFerd]

.

I wasn’t upset when I heard the original mooting to run like quest did and take your best 4/5 runs which converts into points and have a leaderboard with top 100 say qualifying. Quest definitely motivated me last year when I was sick to keep going out. I even went to one the same day as having chemo as needed the scores which luckily I got. Mind you this year my BE is a disaster and unaff has been ok! I am slowly running out of time for 2x DC though so will aim for Bicton instead which has been a pathway to Badminton for a fair few. I think the 2x DC is totally fair and I don’t get why people are moaning.I get very pro heavy 100 here and so then you have to start playing the game to travel further to have a better shot at placing and I cba with that as sometimes I don’t like the events. I would rather run round lovely venues which are a challenge like Nunney.

I feel like people don't realise that the incentive of qualifying for a running at a national championship (ie Bramham or Badminton GR) should NOT just be about rewarding the best performances, but should also be about rewarding consistency of performance AND consistency of participation. It is a member incentive as much as it is a competition. It shouldn't be possible to qualify to run at a national championship off the back of just 3 runs (never mind the just 2 runs, as it was in the past). Championship spaces should be given to people who support the org, not just those that are the 'best'. I think the leaderboard would have been far better, BUT the chaos of the occasional wild dressage judge could sway things depending on how it was calculated.

 

[Patterdale]

The problem with a minimum of 5 runs to qualify is that many of us would be out at the first hurdle.

We’ve lost so many events in my area that I now have <counts on fingers> 3 events within a 4/4.5 hour drive. This is down from 7/8 events 2 years ago. We’ve lost loads.

Yes, I could travel 6 hours each way to an event and stay over. But this adds fuel, stabling and childcare costs which make it unworkable.

ETA for context, I was Eventing solidly at PN in the mid-late 2000s, and having to use all my ballot stickers to get runs as Eventing was so popular.
I now dream of the heady heights of qualifying for Bramham BE80 champs. I’m not sure it’s possible though as everything is just so far away and the qualification goalposts move so often that I’m not even sure what I’ll need by next year.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

That goes back to chicken and egg: loss of entries = loss of venues= loss of entries = loss of ve nues....

When I was looking into options last year, the Brigante Cup was more appealing than any other option for me. 10 localish venues. All over BE tracks. Points league with points for DC so average dressage did not put qualifying out of reach. Very enticing prize. So I chose that. If BE offered something similar I would choose BE over any unaff option because I want to support the sport's governing body, and to see ebenting thrive. But I am not so altruistic as to compete BE over unaff when there was nothing as appealing BE for me to go for.

If the CC and BC entrants switched to BE then venues would start returning maybe....

 

[humblepie]

Again from a BD and showing perspective but also from show jumpng in the past, I don't agree that it should be about consistency of participation. Yes, if an organisation wants income and support that is the way to go, but if you are good enough to qualify at the first attempt or two attempts if x DCs are needed I think that is fine. Needing to run a certain number of times or consistency may restrict those with limited means or time or events nearby and may not be in the best interest of the horse to keep going out. Even the qualify by wining approach does favour those with more time and means, as often they will make multiple event entries and then possibly not compete once qualified and not worry about the cost of the entry fees whereas those who watch their time and means will take a different approach to entering. Organisations could still have a points award that had meaning - the Tour de France do the "combative" award for the attacking rides that don't win.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I would favour dual routes to qualification. Still have the top percentage qualifying directly, but also reward consistent performances across the whole season.

 

[RachelFerd]

The problem with a minimum of 5 runs to qualify is that many of us would be out at the first hurdle.

We’ve lost so many events in my area that I now have <counts on fingers> 3 events within a 4/4.5 hour drive. This is down from 7/8 events 2 years ago. We’ve lost loads.

Yes, I could travel 6 hours each way to an event and stay over. But this adds fuel, stabling and childcare costs which make it unworkable.

ETA for context, I was Eventing solidly at PN in the mid-late 2000s, and having to use all my ballot stickers to get runs as Eventing was so popular.
I now dream of the heady heights of qualifying for Bramham BE80 champs. I’m not sure it’s possible though as everything is just so far away and the qualification goalposts move so often that I’m not even sure what I’ll need by next year.

Exactly chicken and egg as @Ambers Echo says - we lose the events because there aren't enough entries. So what can BE do to drive more entries with a carrot rather than a stick approach to motivation?

In the mid 2000s I think we were all still quite a bit more willing to compete and be satisfied with tracking our own self improvement as an intrinsic motivator, whereas now there seems to be much more desire for every run to "count" for something. Which is what the CC and Brigante leagues have created, and is what people are used to with BD area festivals etc. And for the 'counting' to be something that tempts people in, the performance bar can't be set too high, and particularly needs to bypass the sometimes excess influence of dressage and the whims of judges who give out random sub-15 Dr scores to nice warmbloods.

And I really *do* think it is about encouraging consistent participation in the sport. The privilege of riding at Badminton or Bramham doesn't exist because of the excitement of the sport or anyone really wanting to identify the most talented smaller jumps event horse - it's a very cool opportunity to compete on the biggest stages, but it is not the pinnacle of sport - it's kind of irrelevant who wins, it's relevant that lots of people would like to get there.

 

[Patterdale]

Exactly chicken and egg as @Ambers Echo says - we lose the events because there aren't enough entries. So what can BE do to drive more entries with a carrot rather than a stick approach to motivation?

Actually quite a few of these have been lost due to BE’s policy on the venue running unaffiliated events.
Yes there needed to be change, but the way they implemented and communicated it put SO many backs up and lost so many venues. It was a massive own goal.

I know you see unaffiliated competition as the root of all the problems, but BE really need to take some responsibility. Unaff events has always existed, it is the failings and errors of judgement of BE which have allowed them to garner so much support at the expense of the affiliated sector.

I used to be a staunch supporter of BE/BHTA but you’d have to be wilfully blind to not see that they’re now paying the price for a lot of errors over the last few years.

 

[RachelFerd]

Actually quite a few of these have been lost due to BE’s policy on the venue running unaffiliated events.
Yes there needed to be change, but the way they implemented and communicated it put SO many backs up and lost so many venues. It was a massive own goal.

I know you see unaffiliated competition as the root of all the problems, but BE really need to take some responsibility. Unaff events has always existed, it is the failings and errors of judgement of BE which have allowed them to garner so much support at the expense of the affiliated sector.

I used to be a staunch supporter of BE/BHTA but you’d have to be wilfully blind to not see that they’re now paying the price for a lot of errors over the last few years.

I'm only aware of 1 that has been categorically lost to that rule (Barbury)?

But *something* has to happen to end the current cycle of cancellations and reduced entries - and there *has* to be some kind of governance and oversight - so there's nothing to be done other than work out how BE (or indeed, a different version of BE - but there has to be *something*) comes out the other side of the catalogue of errors that have happened over the past 15 or so years...

 

[Squeak]

An issue with making it so that the partnerships who are competing BE the most are the most likely to qualify is money. For example if you made the qualification criteria 5 x DC's you'd realistically be looking at spending £1k if you manage to do it in the best case scenario of 5 events and could add another 200 per run as needed. It could have the opposite effect and people could know they can't afford to run as many as 5 times that season and so chase a different UA qualifier. It could make eventing seem even more elitist especially at the grassroots level.

I don't disagree with it as a concept but I reckon you would need the two qualification routes.

 

[RachelFerd]

An issue with making it so that the partnerships who are competing BE the most are the most likely to qualify is money. For example if you made the qualification criteria 5 x DC's you'd realistically be looking at spending £1k if you manage to do it in the best case scenario of 5 events and could add another 200 per run as needed. It could have the opposite effect and people could know they can't afford to run as many as 5 times that season and so chase a different UA qualifier. It could make eventing seem even more elitist especially at the grassroots level.

I don't disagree with it as a concept but I reckon you would need the two qualification routes.

Yeah I think 2 routes is the right way - the key question here being for people that run at a mixture of BE and unaff events, what is the 'thing' that would encourage them to choose between a BE event and an unaffiliated league event. This weekend you've got Howick BE and Waverton Manor Cotswold Cup running on the same days just 60 miles apart - and there are lots more grassroots horses running at Waverton, despite the entry fees being pretty much identical (and the pony club areas being at Howick, combined into the BE event).

You don't want to push people away from eventing with exorbitant cost of eventing A LOT - but if they're already spending the same entry fees on entering other unaffiliated events, they're clearly OK with spending that money - so how does BE recapture that audience.

 

[LEC]

I'm only aware of 1 that has been categorically lost to that rule (Barbury)?

But *something* has to happen to end the current cycle of cancellations and reduced entries - and there *has* to be some kind of governance and oversight - so there's nothing to be done other than work out how BE (or indeed, a different version of BE - but there has to be *something*) comes out the other side of the catalogue of errors that have happened over the past 15 or so years...

Pontispool as well

 

[LEC]

Yeah I think 2 routes is the right way - the key question here being for people that run at a mixture of BE and unaff events, what is the 'thing' that would encourage them to choose between a BE event and an unaffiliated league event. This weekend you've got Howick BE and Waverton Manor Cotswold Cup running on the same days just 60 miles apart - and there are lots more grassroots horses running at Waverton, despite the entry fees being pretty much identical (and the pony club areas being at Howick, combined into the BE event).

You don't want to push people away from eventing with exorbitant cost of eventing A LOT - but if they're already spending the same entry fees on entering other unaffiliated events, they're clearly OK with spending that money - so how does BE recapture that audience.

I really really hate the BE calendar this year. It’s dreadful. That is under BE control.

 

[RachelFerd]

I really really hate the BE calendar this year. It’s dreadful. That is under BE control.

You've been stuffed in the SW haven't you? Things not going well here in Cheshire either, losing Somerford x2 and Cholmondeley amongst others. Have found myself driving a *very long way* to get the runs I need (although that is as much the fault of the weather as anything else). Probably not entirely fair to say it is 'under BE control' - it's under joint control of BE and people willing to run fixtures, right? And however that relationship is meant to work for season planning, it isn't working is it.

Did notice Jonelle Price posting a nice review of eventing at Launceston though 'rustic but educational' was the description!

 

[LEC]

You've been stuffed in the SW haven't you? Things not going well here in Cheshire either, losing Somerford x2 and Cholmondeley amongst others. Have found myself driving a *very long way* to get the runs I need (although that is as much the fault of the weather as anything else). Probably not entirely fair to say it is 'under BE control' - it's under joint control of BE and people willing to run fixtures, right? And however that relationship is meant to work for season planning, it isn't working is it.

Did notice Jonelle Price posting a nice review of eventing at Launceston though 'rustic but educational' was the description!

I think where I am annoyed is that BE said last year a lot of the calendar issues would be fixed. It’s worse. Launceston is a nice event but I entered Howick this week instead, not that I am going as have bust my leg in a horse fall. But I am literally scrabbling for events in July/Aug that fit the bill though this rainy miserable day helps a lot, a few more days like this!

 

[Jango]

In 2022 I did a mixture of unaff and BE80s, tbh I'm not sure anything BE could do would make me do 100% BE... as I chose events based on convenience to me, distance, dates, wanting to jump new courses etc.

Needing 5x DCs only would be unachievable for me, I would only event a max of 5 times a year, due to cost and holidays etc. So any existing qualification routes would need to be kept too as I don't think I would be unusual at 80/90 level.

Honestly I don't think the issues BE are having are solvable at the moment. CoL is ridiculous and people are cutting back, BE is the most expensive standard horse sport you can do, so really not surprising amateurs are choosing not to go or going less.

Diehard eventers are always going to prioritise eventing regardless of other factors, but I think the majority of people at 80/90 are more casual eventers who make their decisions based on a combination of factors. And there are so so many external factors currently.

I think BE need to be realistic and find a way of either making it possible for events to run with less entries, reducing the calendar at grassroots level (so less events with more people) or dropping 80/90 go back to unaff only. I'm not sure trying to increase participation is realistic currently.

 

[billylula]

I'm only aware of 1 that has been categorically lost to that rule (Barbury)?

But *something* has to happen to end the current cycle of cancellations and reduced entries - and there *has* to be some kind of governance and oversight - so there's nothing to be done other than work out how BE (or indeed, a different version of BE - but there has to be *something*) comes out the other side of the catalogue of errors that have happened over the past 15 or so years...

And Pontispool

 

[RachelFerd]

And Pontispool

Pontispool has never had an international class. They wrote a very oddly worded post, which I quote, says "we have decided to move our business in a different direction to ensure its stability without external dictates, and to maintain a continued presence at grass roots level Eventing. We will not, therefore, be running any British Eventing Horse Trials in 2023"

 

[Gamebird]

Amusingly my FB status for this day 12 years ago...:

Jesus Christ. As if I didn't have enough money tied up in as-yet-unrefunded entry fees. I was waitlisted for Malpas (sent paper entry and cheque as requested by sec) and got in off the waitlist 12hrs before they cancelled. Today (a week later) they have banked my cheque for entry fees for their cancelled-a-week-ago event, wiping out all the money I'd set aside for fuel for this weekend's (as yet uncancelled) event. Thanks.

There's nothing new!!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Amusingly my FB status for this day 12 years ago...:

Jesus Christ. As if I didn't have enough money tied up in as-yet-unrefunded entry
fees. I was waitlisted for Malpas (sent paper entry and cheque as requested by sec) and got in off the waitlist 12hrs before they cancelled. Today (a week later) they have banked my cheque for entry fees for their cancelled-a-week-ago event, wiping out all the money I'd set aside for fuel for this weekend's (as yet uncancelled) event. Thanks.

There's nothing new!!

Shouldn't laugh really but you can't make this crap up any more it's just ridiculous!